Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

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cr4zymanz0r
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Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by cr4zymanz0r »

I get that it was the standard for RGB in Europe back in the day but it perplexes me it's still being used and 're-invented' today. It's even more confusing to me that it's widely accepted by people in North America.

The case against SCART:
1.) Connector quality varies wildly. It's a big fat plug with 21 pins, when you only really need 6 for RGBs + stereo sound. Some connectors on equipment will snuggly hold the SCART cable ends, while others let it practically fall out at the slightly bit of tension.

2.) Cable quality varies wildly. It's not like everyone is just using it because "well, we've got this big massive back stock of quality SCART cables from the 90's. We might as well just use those instead of trying to make a new kind of cable". It seems like officially licensed cables are hard to come by (at least when shopping from the US), old 3rd party cables are a crap shoot on quality, and seemingly most quality SCART cables are ones made by hobbyists and niche ebay sellers. Other than maybe the reputation of a few good sellers, you never know if you're going to get some crap cable with the thickness of a telephone cord with virtually no shielding that causes audio to buzz like crazy at the least.

3.) SCART AV switch quality varies wildly. When you're hunting down a SCART switch for all your retro consoles outputting RGB over SCART, it seems to be mostly a giant gamble. There's maybe 1 or 2 that sound like they're good quality that were recently made by hobbyists (I forget the names, but I've seen posts about them here) but I think I recall them being kinda pricey too. If you're trying to get SCART switches from back-in-the-day it seems like either the quality is horrible with signal bleed or other issues, supposed good quality brand ones are very hard to find, and/or they just don't have very many ports.

4.) Professional and 'prosumer' equipment (mostly) don't use SCART. A lot of the enthusiasts seem to want high quality equipment whether it be a professional CRT display or fancy upscaling equipment to play on a HDTV. PVMs, BVMs, and other professional CRT displays seem to mostly use BNC connectors while some other oddballs might use some other non-SCART ports. AV switches that can handle RGB and have many ports generally don't have SCART ports either. If you can find a consumer AV switch with a lot of ports it's going to be RCA jacks and meant for component, while professional switches will probably use BNC. The Framemeister uses whatever custom port that is that will need an adapter. Maybe there's another random device or two I'm not thinking of, but the OSSC is the only 'upscaler' (I know it's not an upscaler by definition) that has SCART. I assume this is because of the current SCART trend, and because it comes from Europe ;).

So basically, it seems like most equipment you'd be using (except for consumer European CRTs) is either going to be BNC or some not widely used connector that you're going to need an adapter for regardless. I personally adapted all my retro stuff to RCA jacks so that I can just use standard RCA cables, then it just takes simple RCA-to-BNC adapters to hook to stuff such as a BVM or Extron Crosspoint switch. I'm not an expert cable maker, so I ended up making RCA break-out boxes for RGB on each retro console (before I got my Extron switch), but I'm sure people who are making cables all the time could make say just a straight up SNES RGB RCA cable.

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Fusion916
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Fusion916 »

It's very basic. If you want a plug and play solution for the 8 bit/16bit/32bit era, you have no other option.

I agree with your point though I'm not too found of the SCART connector and there arent many high quality cabling options. As I stated, there is just no choice without custom cables or hacking your console.
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dot_lvl
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by dot_lvl »

I've been tearing my hair out over this exact problem as I haven't had luck finding a SCART-to-BNC converter that has a great reputation. I don't want to drop like $200 on cables and converters only to discover I chose poorly and it ends up looking like crap anyway.

Were these breakout boxes particularly tough to make? I don't have a ton of experience with electronics beyond really simple projects like a SNES2 S-Video (I know...) restore mod, a number of custom arcade stick/Pop'n Music controller builds over the years and stuff like that. Did you wing it, or are there decent guides out there for making something like this?
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AndehX
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by AndehX »

SCART is alot more convenient that manually connecting 4 seperate BNC plugs. Plus, all the points you listed against SCART is part of the novelty of building an RGB setup. That's what defines it as a "hobby"
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Triple Lei
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Triple Lei »

AndehX wrote:SCART is alot more convenient that manually connecting 4 seperate BNC plugs. Plus, all the points you listed against SCART is part of the novelty of building an RGB setup. That's what defines it as a "hobby"
Adding to that, I don't have to break out the flashlight to make sure I'm really, totally, no kidding, plugging blue in blue and green in green with component.

SCART plugs in only one way too. No more getting a silver Sharpie to mark the center when plugging in mini-DIN.

No need to reinvent the wheel. And here in North America, it's still strange and exotic and lets me feel smug over common folk, anyway... 8)
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Syntax
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Syntax »

This only works if you never intend to use a crt.

There isn't a plug readily available which would not cause confusion. Rca is annoying, HDMI VGA and usb2 are all still in use, db25 ECT are ugly and bulky.

8 pin din with a headphone line is probably the best option for an upgrade.
Frame miester already uses that too.

I'd much rather a good coaxial scart cable any day.

Less connectors the better with analogue signals.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by mvsfan »

Scart is a pain, but BNCS are too. who wants to sit there and plug all that shit into a crosspoint, and hope Youve got RGB hooked up right on each input after youve already ran all the cables to your consoles and it is stuck in your av rack?

a VGA switch, such as an Extron MVX, which supports RGBS, is the way to go. its what Im using. the cables never fall out, unlike scart, and no re arranging Rgb inputs.
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cyborc
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by cyborc »

mvsfan wrote:Scart is a pain, but BNCS are too. who wants to sit there and plug all that shit into a crosspoint, and hope Youve got RGB hooked up right on each input after youve already ran all the cables to your consoles and it is stuck in your av rack?

a VGA switch, such as an Extron MVX, which supports RGBS, is the way to go. its what Im using. the cables never fall out, unlike scart, and no re arranging Rgb inputs.
I have an MVX on the way after reading about your experience with it. I've already switched most of my cabling over to db15. I'm looking forward to getting rid of this bulky crosspoint switcher.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by jwo825 »

Half of the complaints against are about poor quality. In the case of SCART equipment, you get what you pay for. I use cables from retro gaming cables and I got one of Superg's gscartsw-lire switches. All my cables fit nice and snugly and all my consoles worked perfectly the first time I plugged them in. All 10 of them.

In my opinion, people have a lot of problems because they don't do enough research before diving in. In my case, I tracked down a PVP first. Then I researched setups that were successfully using. In my case, it seemed going RGB with sync was getting best results. I decided on all the consoles I wanted and found that quality cables were available for csync output for all of them and then I placed an order. Finding a good switch was the hardest part, but mow you have 2 very good options in the gscartsw and the hydra that can just pass through. So if you get the right cables, the switch isn't a problem.

Like someone mentioned above, RGB is a hobby. A totally unesssessary hobby. And it's even tougher in NA because we never had a consumer market for it. Taking a few extra months to learn about what you're getting into would alleviate a majority of the problems encountered.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by mvsfan »

If your going to use a tv, and not a PVM, youll need to attenuate the output with a resistor on the sync line, or the MVX wont work.

Pvms just work with it, no components needed.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Sumez »

I completely agree that SCART sucks in all of these aspects, but I can't even imagine having to buy or create custom cables for everything I own, and then again adapters from that to SCART in order to use it in most of my TVs or whenever I'm out and about.

So yeah, SCART sucks, but it's the standard and works everywhere.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by DirkSwizzler »

cr4zymanz0r wrote: 1.) Connector quality varies wildly. It's a big fat plug with 21 pins, when you only really need 6 for RGBs + stereo sound. Some connectors on equipment will snuggly hold the SCART cable ends, while others let it practically fall out at the slightly bit of tension.

2.) Cable quality varies wildly. It's not like everyone is just using it because "well, we've got this big massive back stock of quality SCART cables from the 90's. We might as well just use those instead of trying to make a new kind of cable". It seems like officially licensed cables are hard to come by (at least when shopping from the US), old 3rd party cables are a crap shoot on quality, and seemingly most quality SCART cables are ones made by hobbyists and niche ebay sellers. Other than maybe the reputation of a few good sellers, you never know if you're going to get some crap cable with the thickness of a telephone cord with virtually no shielding that causes audio to buzz like crazy at the least.

3.) SCART AV switch quality varies wildly. When you're hunting down a SCART switch for all your retro consoles outputting RGB over SCART, it seems to be mostly a giant gamble. There's maybe 1 or 2 that sound like they're good quality that were recently made by hobbyists (I forget the names, but I've seen posts about them here) but I think I recall them being kinda pricey too. If you're trying to get SCART switches from back-in-the-day it seems like either the quality is horrible with signal bleed or other issues, supposed good quality brand ones are very hard to find, and/or they just don't have very many ports.

4.) Professional and 'prosumer' equipment (mostly) don't use SCART. A lot of the enthusiasts seem to want high quality equipment whether it be a professional CRT display or fancy upscaling equipment to play on a HDTV. PVMs, BVMs, and other professional CRT displays seem to mostly use BNC connectors while some other oddballs might use some other non-SCART ports. AV switches that can handle RGB and have many ports generally don't have SCART ports either. If you can find a consumer AV switch with a lot of ports it's going to be RCA jacks and meant for component, while professional switches will probably use BNC. The Framemeister uses whatever custom port that is that will need an adapter. Maybe there's another random device or two I'm not thinking of, but the OSSC is the only 'upscaler' (I know it's not an upscaler by definition) that has SCART. I assume this is because of the current SCART trend, and because it comes from Europe ;).
2) is going to be true for any output connector. The fact that these are niche items for old consoles means you're mostly limited on the console end connector being compatible. So SCART is moot here.

1) I personally don't like the bulky size of the SCART connector along with the angled cable. And I've had connectors come loose more often than I'd like. So I agree on this. But, assuming I'm right about #2 being a completely separate issue from SCART. This is something you can fix yourself! Those SCART heads pop right off and you can solder on BNC connectors. I'm unsure if this is what you already did when you say you adapted everything to RCA.

3) I happened to get lucky nabbing my first gscartsw. So I never encountered a bad switch. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe your going to find any BNC switches still being manufactured anymore. And since VGA switches would also need to switch audio, I'm assuming good options are drying up there as well. So even if you get away from SCART, you're still pursuing niches for a switch.

4) Most of my prosumer equipment doesn't agree on what it's input connector should be anyway. And I don't think it's asking much to have a passive adapter here.

I firmly believe that one standard that does not inherently have quality problems is much better than multiple standards to juggle. So I'm sold on SCART just for unity's sake. It was proven out for years in European and Japanese markets (JP21 is essentially the same in terms of historical testing of robustness).

As an anecdotal example, I have a real life friend that literally had no idea that JP21 and Euroscart were different standards. Even though he had consoles using each of the 2 standards. He just knew that sometimes he had to hook up his "RGB 21" adapter. One standard makes things so much easier. Supporting people that just aren't going to put in the time heavily favors a single standard. And in this case it doubly favors SCART's overabundance of supported modes to cover a wide array of signals.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by gray117 »

You're not necessarily wrong about the issues. But what is the alternative? Svideo? ... RGsB component wasn't common enough, but may well have been the better alternative.

The thing at the time was consumers were considered too dumb to generally deal with a cable that had more than one end/part/could be plugged in wrong (and this was probably correct, especially back then) and for the most part manufacturers were more concerned with cutting cost/maxing profit on cables, components and connectors for consumers... ofc back in the day cost cutting/convenience/compatibility meant a lot of scart users were still basically duped into the composite video along a scart cable setup even when they could have had rgb ... The best quality was actually not top of the agenda at a time when most people were dealing with just getting a decent analogue tv signal from a glorified coat hanger 90% of the time. For right or ill the scart connector [with a lot of pins that are wasted on the common user] came to prominence partly due to the rise of cctv, and back channeled into more regular consumer use, and became a common enough choice that it remains one of the more convenient plugs for 15khz rgb...

... just ask betamax about quality vs. price and general convenience debate if in doubt about how such things went at the time...

And america (from a retrospective perspective) got fucked with a lot of crap svideo implementations, as well as some perfectly good ones ... but those were probably dwarfed by the many price rip-offs on quality/brand standards related to working through that choice... and aside from the odd component connection destined most tv tubes to go to market be without a decent rgb-like connection in the states.

But scart is basically just a plug.

If you are building from the ground up today there is nothing stopping you (apart from the odd blanking signal to enable rgb on some tvs) from just going the breakout rgb-bnc-component-like-but-actually-more-like-jamma-RGBS route and having each signal on it's own line, and just reconnecting to a plug at the very end should a tv/scaler best accommodate that without modding - otherwise mod the fck out of it and connected each line on its own. Just like the route that most professional equipment took.

...Apart from the fact you might have a significant other that thinks all your wires look like a fcking mess: back to the consumer-simple-use-compact-tidier-look problem/arguements that were probably had by other rgb lovers back in the day on tv manufacturing crews :)
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by FinalBaton »

HD15 master race!

If I were to start over, I'd get HD15 (VGA) RGB cables with a breakout audio lead for all my consoles. Cable makers can make them on demand now(I know r_c_a does).

VGA cables are plentyful and cheap and quality ones are easy to source. And it's a solid, compact and easy to plug/remove connector that even has some screws to secure the connection. And the switchers/matrixes are a lot less bulkier than BNC ones. Ideal really.
I currently have a BNC matrix, but I won't lie, I'd rather have a VGA matrix instead.

Only annoying thing with that setup if you don't wanna have to use sync strippers is : you gotta make sure all your consoles output CSYNC for use on an Extron matrix switcher(since it requires CSYNC), or on a display that requires CSYNC. But that's not really the fault of the connector, more that of the sync-stripping-device-free setup.

Question : can a HD15 console cables be wired for composite-video-as-sync, or sync-on-luma?
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Woozle »

I switched to BNC/crosspoint setup early on in my RGB journey and don't regret it one bit. Since I split the signal out to 3 upscalers, and 3 TVs, the crosspoint was a great way to handle that. It also gave me an opportunity to learn how to splice together a nice scart-to-BNC for the OSSC. The audio connectors were tricky at first, but they're easy to make once you get the hang of it.

Another reason I like the crosspoint...is that my consoles sit on top of it, keeping them safe from my three ferrets (source of username :p). They also like to sleep under the crosspoint's wire rack because it's dark and warm, win-win for everyone.
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FinalBaton
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by FinalBaton »

Woozle wrote:I switched to BNC/crosspoint setup early on in my RGB journey and don't regret it one bit. Since I split the signal out to 3 upscalers, and 3 TVs, the crosspoint was a great way to handle that. It also gave me an opportunity to learn how to splice together a nice scart-to-BNC for the OSSC. The audio connectors were tricky at first, but they're easy to make once you get the hang of it.

Another reason I like the crosspoint...is that my consoles sit on top of it, keeping them safe from my three ferrets (source of username :p). They also like to sleep under the crosspoint's wire rack because it's dark and warm, win-win for everyone.
do your console cables have a scart plug at the end(itself plugged into a SCART to BNC adapter), or BNC connectors?

for someone who doesn't want to have to make extra adapters or breakout cables, console VGA cables are cheaper than the 2 options above, which I appreciate.
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Woozle
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Woozle »

FinalBaton wrote:
Woozle wrote:I switched to BNC/crosspoint setup early on in my RGB journey and don't regret it one bit. Since I split the signal out to 3 upscalers, and 3 TVs, the crosspoint was a great way to handle that. It also gave me an opportunity to learn how to splice together a nice scart-to-BNC for the OSSC. The audio connectors were tricky at first, but they're easy to make once you get the hang of it.

Another reason I like the crosspoint...is that my consoles sit on top of it, keeping them safe from my three ferrets (source of username :p). They also like to sleep under the crosspoint's wire rack because it's dark and warm, win-win for everyone.
do your console cables have a scart plug at the end(itself plugged into a SCART to BNC adapter), or BNC connectors?

for someone who doesn't want to have to make extra adapters or breakout cables, console VGA cables are cheaper than the 2 options above, which I appreciate.
Mostly just BNC connectors, but I have a SCART-to-BNC cable that I use for my consoles that have scart cables. I bought my first 8x8 crosspoint locally for $25. I wanted a gscartsw, but availability and pricing pushed me towards grabbing the crosspoint.

I'm just glad we have so many options, that way people can tailor their setup to their needs.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by FinalBaton »

Woozle wrote:I'm just glad we have so many options, that way people can tailor their setup to their needs.
that's great for sure

I have a BNC crosspoint as well. but I wish I got a VGA crosspoint with console HD15 cables instead.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by gray117 »

FinalBaton wrote:
Question : can a HD15 console cables be wired for composite-video-as-sync, or sync-on-luma?
... it's exactly the same in principle as doing any of this with a scart cable - just a different plug.

... each pin is a wire, each wire can be wired to whatever you want... if this is what you're device is outputing this'll be what the sync signal is.

Otherwise you can of course have cables that combines/processes line signals (per device) differently - only difference there's a lot less room inside connector head for mucking around with this cleanly unless the console side connector is larger and any components needed are housed there.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by FinalBaton »

gray117 wrote: ... it's exactly the same in principle as doing any of this with a scart cable - just a different plug.

... each pin is a wire, each wire can be wired to whatever you want... if this is what you're device is outputing this'll be what the sync signal is.

Otherwise you can of course have cables that combines/processes line signals (per device) differently - only difference there's a lot less room inside connector head for mucking around with this cleanly unless the console side connector is larger and any components needed are housed there.
Thanks, that's what I thought but wasn't sure. So if one didn't have a switcher nor display that requires CSYNC, then he/she could get his HD15 cable wire for Luma-as-sync for his Playstation, for example. Good to know
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by sky-13 »

It was not by my hand that SCART was once again given relevance.

I was called here by GAAAAAAMMERS, who wish to pay me tribute!
WARNING: no refuge
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cr4zymanz0r
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by cr4zymanz0r »

sky-13 wrote:It was not by my hand that SCART was once again given relevance.

I was called here by GAAAAAAMMERS, who wish to pay me tribute!
Tribute? You steal gamer's dollars, and make them bad cables.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by FinalBaton »

lol. well done guys
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Arasoi »

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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by xAzurexEonx »

I feel the community just sort of focused on much of the other work necessary to mod systems to get them working and SCART was a readily available all in one idea to work with.

I very much would prefer a different connector over SCART.

I believe VGA would be a great fit, especially since your choices of switchers is greater. I've heard people using this but never saw much detail of how some of these cables were built (if they ran into a unique issues).

In the end though, it'll likely all just be rolled over into an hdmi output.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by BuckoA51 »

The amount of weird problems I've encountered testing SCART switches tells you there's something a little wrong with the standard.

but.. good luck inventing something that everyone switches to and adopts in its place.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by Thomago »

Jepp. The mere fact that SCART was the standard for decades and will be the standard in the future makes it superior to everything else.
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ChuChu Flamingo
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by ChuChu Flamingo »

BuckoA51 wrote:The amount of weird problems I've encountered testing SCART switches tells you there's something a little wrong with the standard.

but.. good luck inventing something that everyone switches to and adopts in its place.
Pretty much what you stated is SCART in a nutshell. It is easy to say SCART is awesome when you get good cables + a good SCART switcher but it still has its downfalls.

The real problem with SCART is that it can carry a plethora of different signals in close proximity to one another, which is a recipe for disaster for things unshielded.Additionally, having three different types of Sync (composite video, luma, and CSYNC) complicates it a little bit more (this really isn't a SCART problem).

Then we have these consoles come in and mess it up even more by skipping components on the console output so we need to put them inside the cable. In a perfect world if we saw a nintendo connector for example we should be able to use any passthrough scart cable and not have problems.

I really see no reason to reinvent the wheel at this late of the game for SCART. We have a few good options for SCART switchers (Gscart/Hydra/etc) currently. If you wanna go BNC you can even pick up a Extron Crosspoint or make something custom use VGA switchers.

In my opinion I think it is best to stick with SCART as it is more common to find and easier to transfer over to other setups. In any case I am loving my Gscart Lite.
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by mikejmoffitt »

Eh, SCART is fart. I have been advocating using VGA cabling and separate 3.5mm audio leads for a while.
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Re: Why is everyone so enamored by SCART for RGB?

Post by pyroman512 »

We could all just switch to JP21. I hear that is a pretty good connector :lol:
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