How much dedication does a 1CC on a bullet hell requires?

[LichbannMejolaro]

So, I'm pretty new to bullet hells. I got Danmaku Unlimited bu chance on the last steam sale and past weak I installed and instantly fell in love with it. After that I made some research and found this forum, and I've been lurking over here a lot, reading lots of diferent threads and such.

One thing that I always like to read about is the 1CC that people accomplish. Right now, that are only two games that I've beaten without dying in my life: Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne. In both, I had to put around 200 hours to accomplish this (mind you, I wasn't trying to do this for those 200 hours, but that's the total playtime I had on the games when I reached it).

With that in mind, I'm very eager to try to get 1CC in some bullet-hell and platformers/run and gun games. One thing that I don't see people mentioning in their stories is how much time/dedication it takes to accomplish this.

So, for the 1CC players: What is the average time you take to get a 1CC on a particular game? After you get the 1CC on your first shmup, the others become automatically easier or the systems are different enough to make the subsequent games as hard as the first one?

Also, in some Touhou threads, I've seen people commentating about getting 1CC Lunatic/No Bombs/No Miss. Has anyone here ever got this? I take that this is like a 1 run finished for 1000 tries, is that right?

[Squire Grooktook]

It depends on the game. I'd say a no death run of Dark Souls or Bloodborne requires a magnitude more dedication than most bullet hells.

Some are quite easy and can be cleared in a day if you have decent fundamentals. Others require a lot of work. Most games of average difficulty take me about a 1-3 weeks if I play them for like an 1 hour a day or so.

[CloudyMusic]

Your first 1CC might take you quite a while to achieve, as you develop general shmup fundamentals and learn how to approach the genre. As you get more used to this style of game, your skills will carry over between games and you'll only have to focus on the particularities of each new game you try. Future 1CCs will take you less and less time.

[LichbannMejolaro]

I'll add that since you discovered you liked the genre, for now don't worry about the 1CC and enjoy the ride while you train your abilities and perception. Once you can reliably 1CC stuff, it becomes increasingly more stressful, you know, when you start to dread every accidental death or missed scoring opportunity.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm definitely enjoying them so far, and knowing that I have so many of them to play, I already see that a problem will be which one to focus on to try 1CC and other kinds of challenges.

Your first 1CC might take you quite a while to achieve, as you develop general shmup fundamentals and learn how to approach the genre. As you get more used to this style of game, your skills will carry over between games and you'll only have to focus on the particularities of each new game you try. Future 1CCs will take you less and less time.

Thanks!

It depends on the game. I'd say a no death run of Dark Souls or Bloodborne requires a magnitude more dedication than most bullet hells.

Some are quite easy and can be cleared in a day if you have decent fundamentals. Others require a lot of work. Most games of average difficulty take me about a 1-3 weeks if I play them for like an 1 hour a day or so.

Yes, Dark Souls and Bloodborne have so much random bullshit thrown at you that sometimes is really annoying to get a no death run. But at the point I am, I'm so experienced on both of them that I don't even have to make a huge effort to get no death runs, so I even try harder challenges like No-Death/Fists-only runs and things similar.

But I'll work on the fundamentals to be able to improve myself in those games. I really love challenging games, and honestly I can't believe that I kept shmups away from me for so much time. I'm gonna take the dust out of my Xbox 360 and see if I can find some used shmups to play there, since I read that the platform (to my surprise, I'd bet that the PS3 would be most fitting in that sense) has a lot of good games in the genre.

Oh, and since you said that some games took you from 1-3 weeks, what are some examples?

[wgogh]

The 360 has good ports for Cave stuff, like Akai Katana and Mushihimesama. If you're still browsing and discovering the genre, is good to emulate in MAME a little. By my not great experience a shmup take less time than an RPG, but the effort seems much higher since you're constantly trying to improve, while in the RPG you can chill in the story parts or something even if you take longer to clear the game.

[Plasmo]

Welcome to the forum!

I really like the way you write and your approach to videogames. I hope you have a nice stay here and achieve your first 1cc soon!

The best thing about shmups is really that skill carries over from one game to the other. It's very satisfying.

So don't get discouraged when you have trouble with beating a certain game that some members on here might find "easy". Shmups are very challenging índeed.

[Jeneki]

Some light reading here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30458

[Stevens]

Thanks for the heads up. I'm definitely enjoying them so far, and knowing that I have so many of them to play, I already see that a problem will be which one to focus on to try 1CC and other kinds of challenges.

Every player here has their game that they just clicked with. You'll find yours and that is the one you should try to clear.

And welcome.

[LichbannMejolaro]

The 360 has good ports for Cave stuff, like Akai Katana and Mushihimesama. If you're still browsing and discovering the genre, is good to emulate in MAME a little. By my not great experience a shmup take less time than an RPG, but the effort seems much higher since you're constantly trying to improve, while in the RPG you can chill in the story parts or something even if you take longer to clear the game.

Oh, I just discovered that the vast majority of the X360 shmups are JP only (my console is american). I'll try to find the ones that are available here. Hell, I even have my PS2 sleeping for a few years now, I'll look for DoDonphaci Saijuou on it.

And as for MAME, I've been using it for years, but I was mainly playing fighting games there and SNK stuff (Metal Slug, Super Sidekicks, KOF, etc)..but I'll start playing shmups there.

Welcome to the forum!

I really like the way you write and your approach to videogames. I hope you have a nice stay here and achieve your first 1cc soon!

The best thing about shmups is really that skill carries over from one game to the other. It's very satisfying.

So don't get discouraged when you have trouble with beating a certain game that some members on here might find "easy". Shmups are very challenging índeed.

Thanks for the warm welcome! I think this is the first forum I see people being welcomed when they arrive and not being drowned in a pile of memes.

Is good to know that the basic skill is carried through the games, and I can't wait to become a specialist in the genre. Watching some videos on youtube and seeing the crazy stuff people pull out during 1cc runs is really inspiring. Considering how dumb the gaming industry has become lately, is good to know that there's a place like this forum where games that offers a good gameplay and requires player skill are praised instead of cinematic experiences with press A to win.

[LichbannMejolaro]

Some light reading here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30458

After reading some bits (will finish up later), I can see something that will cause me trouble: Bombs.

I have a lot of trouble with item management on my games. I usually never use potions, buffs and etc because I feel that I will need them in a later part that can be a lot harder, so in general I finish the game without ever using them.

Bombs will be the same for me. I can see myself trying to dodge the bullets until the very last microsecond, instead of using the bombs. That will certainly cause a lot of deaths and rage for me, but I realize that I can be "educated" with time.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm definitely enjoying them so far, and knowing that I have so many of them to play, I already see that a problem will be which one to focus on to try 1CC and other kinds of challenges.

Every player here has their game that they just clicked with. You'll find yours and that is the one you should try to clear.

And welcome.

For the videos I've seen so far, it looks like Gradius V and Touhou: Perfect Cherry Blossom are great games to begin with, but I'll do some more research...maybe I'll start with some that is available on Mame because of easiness.

[Satis]

a

[Special World]

Really depends on the game. There are some that I have zero hope or desire to ever clear in this life. I would try to find a game that's not incredibly hard that you really love. My recommendations for 1CCs of really great games are Mushi Futari Black Label, Eschatos, and Deathsmiles 1 or 2. But you'd be better off trying to clear a really hard game that you love than an easy one you don't care for. Because if you don't like the game, what's even the point, right?

Mushi Futari Black Original took me a good long while, but it was one of the first bullet hells I really got serious with. I mean when I was younger I played a lot of Mars Matrix, but that was (and is) pretty far out of my league. I'd say it took me a year of on and off play to 1CC Futari Black Original. You'd also have access to Novice Futari Ultra, which is a pretty fun mode that's not too difficult. You could cut your teeth on that (and clear it pretty quickly) then move onto the "real" game.

Eschatos has a bunch of difficulty options, none of which feel like the watered down baby modes so many bullet hell shooters have. I was able to clear Original/Advanced Easy pretty quickly, you just have to experience certain sections to understand how the bullet and obstacle patterns work. I cleared Advanced Normal and then Original Normal with a few weeks of dedicated play. Really, I'd say this is one of the best and most accessible shooters out there. And it's the sort of game that is willing to meet you from absolute beginner to shoot-em-up master.

Deathsmiles 1 and 2... I feel like it didn't take me a terribly long time to clear these. I had a decent amount of practice by this point. The game works you up the difficulties, so as long as you skip the special stage it shouldn't be too bad. On Deathsmiles 2 I got to the final boss with very few lives (maybe only one life?) and it was like the hitbox was so generous he never even hit me. I dunno if I just got really lucky, but I think that's telling to how achievable a clear these games are.

I would say don't get too frustrated by people who say "oh man, 1CCing is easy!" I guess for some people it is and for others it isn't. I am very able to pick up new games in a lot of different genres, but actually achieving a level of mastery to 1CC most bullet hells requires a level of dedication I'm usually not willing to commit. It takes a very special game to make me want to go all the way for a 1CC. There are obviously some strategies you can use to speed up the process immensely, but for me to beat Dodonpachi Daioujou or Ketsui is simply not realistic without a -ton- of practice. Will probably never happen.

[Eaglet]

Deathsmiles was my first CAVE 1CC and took me something like 10-15 credits with barely any experience in the genre.
For comparison i started playing Garegga about a month after and it took me something like 3 months of on and off playing until i was able to clear it afaik.
DOJBL 1-loop clear took me something like a month during the same time period.

Something like Espgaluda is probably a good choice for a first vertical CAVE 1CC.

[Lyv]

Also, in some Touhou threads, I've seen people commentating about getting 1CC Lunatic/No Bombs/No Miss. Has anyone here ever got this? I take that this is like a 1 run finished for 1000 tries, is that right?

A Lunatic 1cc in Touhou games is not usually much harder than a "standard" arcade shmup; definitely not the unrealistic godlike accomplishment that you could think reading some comments. Many people around here have done so.
I did a Lunatic no-bombs in one of the easiest games, and it's a clear step up from a basic 1cc. Still, the games give you quite a lot of resources compared to arcade shmups, so you have some room for error.

As for your main question, you already got lots of good answers. It can range from "a few credits" to "hundreds of hours" depending on the game and your skill level. The hardest 1cc I got took me around 120-150 hours (even after a few years of experience), and there are still much harder ones out there.
As others have said, try to find one game that you really enjoy, stick with it, try to practice somewhat efficiently if you want to achieve something, and see where it leads you. You'll get better over time, not only at basic shmup skills (movement, reflexes, vision...), but also at efficiently learning games.

Welcome around here, and best of luck dude!

[Gamer707b]

Hi and welcome. I discovered how much I love this genre around 5 or 6 years ago myself. Even if I grew up with them in their 80s, 90s heyday. Don't know your budget or preference, but the Saturn is great for shooters as is the PC Engine. I love playing on real hardware and I don't have the space and the kind of money for pcbs so I do consoles. PS2 also has some good ones , though once I researched the Saturn library, I'm partial towards the Saturn.

[Stevens]

I can see something that will cause me trouble: Bombs.

Bombs are like a fine cigar in that they are meant to be used, especially when going for your first clear. If you decide to stick with a game after a clear because you like it that much that is the time to figure out where you can revise routes to bomb less.

Some advice which would have saved me a lot of grief when I first discovered the genre: Play for the clear first, then worry about your score.

And I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but try to avoid copying super plays. Getting ideas from them for parts you are having trouble with is OK, but if you try to mimic one you're gonna have a bad time.

I mean when I was younger I played a lot of Mars Matrix, but that was (and is) pretty far out of my league.

Mmmm....Mars Matrix..

Nah man...if you learn to chain the 1st stage well enough to reach level four and the XP extend you can clear it just by focusing on survival the rest of the game.

The real trick is abusing the invincibility on the barrier, especially the 2nd half of the game. If I cleared MM you can.

[Kollision]

BOMBS

In most shmups with some sort of solid scoring system you're rewarded for not using them, as in getting end-of-stage bonuses and such.

In all other cases where bombs do not matter for scoring my opinion is that you should not feel guilty at all for using them.
There are also those cases where you're rewarded for bombing, or where bombing becomes necessary for survival due to stupid rank shenanigans (most games designed by that crazy Yagawa dude).

[ikaruga007]

Espgaluda was my first bullet hell 1CC.

A very good intro to the genre I feel; the familiar tap shoot for normal fire, hold for focus fire, manageable difficulty and the kakusei (slow-mo) mode allows you to gradually transition from using it for survival towards using it for scoring. Very well designed IMHO.

[Deadliar]

A bit late on this, but my answer is gonna be simple and straight to the point.

Assuming It's a generic bullet hell without unique mechanics and without much memorization (randomized attacks or player-dependent ones), It's gonna take plenty of getting used to the game and playing until you get one good run after that. Undefined amount of time.
If the game has memorization, it's gonna take a several attempts, I'm gonna say a few days at most.
If the game has mechanics that need to be learned properly (as well as optimally) It's gonna take a lil' bit more, prolly two or three runs till I got completely used to to the hardest ones (Akashicverse being the worst culprit).

The bombs protip is a great one. If a game has one and you don't consider yourself a master of it yet, bomb whenever you think you'll die, and you'll not die.

[Bananamatic]

touhou normal probably takes less time to 1cc than your average jrpg

[LichbannMejolaro]

I thank you all guys for the warm welcome and all the great opinions and hints given here.

I definitely, DEFINITELY need to plan my bomb usage better. I ALWAYS think that I'll be able to dodge the next bullet and end up dead with my whole bomb stock full.

touhou normal probably takes less time to 1cc than your average jrpg

I don't know why, but I thought that Touhou would be harder than the average arcade shmup. But of course, it makes sense that it isn't, since Touhou is developed with a PC player in mind, while the arcade games were made to steal our quarters, so it had to be harder.

BOMBS

In most shmups with some sort of solid scoring system you're rewarded for not using them, as in getting end-of-stage bonuses and such.

In all other cases where bombs do not matter for scoring my opinion is that you should not feel guilty at all for using them.
There are also those cases where you're rewarded for bombing, or where bombing becomes necessary for survival due to stupid rank shenanigans (most games designed by that crazy Yagawa dude).

I see a lot of people talking about the scoring part, but that's the last thing on my mind. I know that getting high scores is a really arcade-esque thing, but I never was too much into that part of the game...completing it was always more important to me.

[Bananamatic]

I don't know why, but I thought that Touhou would be harder than the average arcade shmup. But of course, it makes sense that it isn't, since Touhou is developed with a PC player in mind, while the arcade games were made to steal our quarters, so it had to be harder.

I see a lot of people talking about the scoring part, but that's the last thing on my mind. I know that getting high scores is a really arcade-esque thing, but I never was too much into that part of the game...completing it was always more important to me.

touhou is easier to simply clear because you get a lot of lives (8-12?) while cave shmups only give you 5-6, you can die a lot and bomb most of the game and still make it easily

honestly if you're an absolute beginner just put duct tape over the score and ignore it entirely, either focus purely on survival or make scoring routes (which is a bad idea for a beginner), any kind of half assed focusing on both will just slow down your progress a lot

[Squire Grooktook]

I've cleared/1-alled a fair number of cave stg's, but Touhou lunatic still drives me insane.

Dangun Feveron, DOJ, Guwange, Esp Ra.De, both Mushi's (original) etc. took me about 1-3 weeks of very casual play average (Esp Ra.De took like 2 days after picking it up seriously for the first time in nearly a decade). I only used save states for practice on Dangun, and that one took like a week.

Mountain of Faith (Lunatic) took me 2 months with rigorous practice, and it was still one of the most exhausting clears I've ever gotten despite supposedly being one of the easiest clears in an easy franchise. I gave up on Perfect Cherry Blossom (Lunatic) a while later because I just couldn't make it past Alice without sacrificing 2-3 lives.

It might be a skillset thing, I think I tend to be better at more manic games (psikyo, dangun, touhou 3). Touhou's bullet density fries my brain. Or maybe it's just that I can never comprehend the weird as fuck scoring systems, and thus can't rack up enough lives. *shrug*

[Nameschonvergeben]

I thank you all guys for the warm welcome and all the great opinions and hints given here.

I definitely, DEFINITELY need to plan my bomb usage better. I ALWAYS think that I'll be able to dodge the next bullet and end up dead with my whole bomb stock full.

I find that the best way to use your bombs effectively is routing the game (you can copy save routes online, but atleast in Touhou, which is what I have experience in, you can also try to route it yourself if you like that more) and finding out what patterns are likely to kill you in practise/what part of the game can't be routed 100% reliably.
Once you find that spots you can either be more prepared to bomb as soon as you encounter difficulties or just plan to bomb them no matter what.

I see a lot of people talking about the scoring part, but that's the last thing on my mind. I know that getting high scores is a really arcade-esque thing, but I never was too much into that part of the game...completing it was always more important to me.

Thats the mindset most people have going into these games, especially since even clearing them for survival seems overwhelming at first. However, once you find a game you really love, a good scoring system will add more depth and allow you to spend basically infinite time improving in it, if you want.

[Stevens]

However, once you find a game you really love, a good scoring system will add more depth and allow you to spend basically infinite time improving in it, if you want.

Totally agree with this. It is also worth noting that in certain games, like Progear, scoring is essential to survival.

[Bananamatic]

It is also worth noting that in certain games, like Progear, scoring is essential to survival.

if you just want a 1-all then scoring is not required at all, the game throws enough extends at you for just living

[Kollision]

As Stevens put it, one game where scoring certainly helps is Mars Matrix.

Get to level 5 by the end of stage 1 and you're cool to kill things faster afterwards.
However, by then you might've already been bitten by the chaining addiction bug, so it will only get more and more technical from then on.

[CloudyMusic]

You could probably make a whole thread about games where scoring well also makes survival easier beyond the basic "1-2 score extends" idea. That's definitely a thing I enjoy if a game does it well.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Back in the Spring of 1988 when arcades were fashionable to go to and the almighty quarter was considered the "gold standard" to credit up a game, there was one arcade game called HyperDyne Sidearms that was distributed by Romstar USA and developed by Capcom. A local burger joint had a Sidearms cab inside and I used go in there during my lunch hour to play and after school was over. It was back in the day when making each quarter count and try to get as far as possible on just one quarter. A typical arcade Sidearms session would take about 30-35 minutes to play from beginning to end. But with me, it'd take a 2nd quarter to finally put an end to the final Bozon mechanical worm boss once and for all -- thus making it a 2CC affair instead. Those were the days of arcade shmup lore. It took me about a few weeks to learn the finer points of Sidearms, learn where the hidden 1up icons were and where to best position my mecha suit (aka Mobi-chan) during the "boss" checkpoint portions.

Eventually I did up scoring a Sidearms jamma pcb and upon booting up it for the first time, discovered that it was a Japanese version of Sidearms with a slightly different opening main title screen and completely different dipswitch settings to contend with (not that I didn't mind -- I was tickled pink to learn about it as I've never had the proper chance to play the Japanese pcb version of Sidearms before). In terms of actual gameplay and game mechanics, both the JPN and USA variant arcade pcbs of Sidearms are the same through & through.

It's possible/doable to 1CC a session of Sidearms with just using the full-auto fire power up (and nothing more than that) and picking up the alpha/beta power up icon using your mecha suit to combine with a helper mecha suit for a bit of protection against the stray bullet as a bit of "life-insurance" if you will. Plus the fact that you're dealing with an arcade-spec 60 fps framerate, it's Sidearms at it's best. Sure, Sidearms is playable in Mame emulation if you want to try your hand at it, LichbannMejolaro.

Of course, Cave Co. Ltd. took the basic Sidearms arcade control scheme formula and created their own bullet hell shmup with Deathsmiles pcb (circa 2007) and Deathsmiles MegaBlack Label pcb (circa 2008). They're both playable on the Xbox 360 platform (Deathsmiles is playable on iOS as well -- and as a cool bonus, with built-in Mi-Fi support to use a bluetooth powered iOS gamepad controller or joystick instead of using the touch screen interface -- how cool is that?).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[wizkid]

speaking from my own experience, avoid arcade games, most of them are hard to 1cc for beginner. console and pc shmups(i.e. vulkaiser, battle traverse, un squadron) generally have a very smooth difficulty curve, clear easy/normal, then clear hard and eventually you'll get a 1cc on hardest difficulty if you enjoy the game enough to put in the hours.