CRTs: 16:9 Wii/GC games in 4:3?

[andykara2003]

Sorry for the slightly inane question but I would appreciate anyone's input on this as I have a decision to make about whether to keep some CRTs or not. I have some 4:3 480p capable CRTs and a couple of 16:9 480p CRTs to play Wii/GC on. I'm debating whether to get rid of the 16:9 ones as they're very heavy and bulky so doing so will save quite a bit of space.

I've talked about the possibility of using Dolphin for the 16:9 games on another thread, but for the purposes of this one, I'm just considering CRTs. I know that some people use PVMs and other 4:3 CRTs for 480p - but what about the games that were primarily designed for 16:9? I don't mean the games that *only* run in 16:9, which would be better played on a 16:9 screen, but the games that were designed with 16:9 in mind, but have the option for 4:3 - Mario Galaxy 1&2, Metroid prime trilogy etc.

I'm wondering whether people tend to prefer these primarily 16:9 games in 16:9 or doesn't it really matter either way? I realise it's subjective and all a matter of personal preference, but I'd be really interested in how the guys here stand on the issue - and any input would help me to make my choice as to whether to keep the 16:9 CRTs.

[gray117]

I'd prioritise 4:3 simply because it's going to be of more use to me with everything else, wii/gc is bottom of the pile for me, and everything 4:3 feels better cropped to monitor bezel imho.

It really depends on what kind of a priority Wii / GC crt play is to you, and whether or not that needs to be done on a crt.

I would be inclined to personally suggest going 4:3 crt for gamecube content - iirc nintendo first party never really went to widescreen this gen: despite allowing it to them this was still really a 4:3 system to them. And I'd be inclined to look at best wii solution on contemporary displays - which I appreciate isn't super easy, but unless wii itself is super important to you it sounds like this is the real reason to keep 16:9 crts rather than gc?

[FinalBaton]

I personally find 16:9 content to be too small on 4:3 CRTs, and I'm talking about 36" CRTs here. (Also you loose too much detail on both axis. Well, for anamorphically squeezed widescreen content you get all the definition on the vertical axis, but you need a TV with a "squeeze" mode)

That's why I play the widescreen stuff on my HDTV. Thankfully mine does a great job at upscaling 480p.

I'm not having a second giant CRT in my living room, so I understand where you're coming from

I guess if I was playing lots of 6th gen widescreen games and was hell bent on playing them on a CRT and didn't want to have 2 huge CRTs around : I would keep the big widescreen CRT and pump the older consoles through an OSSC and add scanlines ^_^ b

[andykara2003]

I'd prioritise 4:3 simply because it's going to be of more use to me with everything else, wii/gc is bottom of the pile for me, and everything 4:3 feels better cropped to monitor bezel imho.

It really depends on what kind of a priority Wii / GC crt play is to you, and whether or not that needs to be done on a crt.

I would be inclined to personally suggest going 4:3 crt for gamecube content - iirc nintendo first party never really went to widescreen this gen: despite allowing it to them this was still really a 4:3 system to them. And I'd be inclined to look at best wii solution on contemporary displays - which I appreciate isn't super easy, but unless wii itself is super important to you it sounds like this is the real reason to keep 16:9 crts rather than gc?

Nice one - I'll always keep the 4:3 CRTs as Gamecube is more important to me but Wii has some games I really love as well, just fewer of them. And like you I can't deal with playing 4:3 games on a 16:9 screen with borders. For me the choice is just whether to keep the 16:9 CRTs for Wii or ditch them and use a modern display for that console, which in my case means Dolphin as I can't bear anamorphic 480p widescreen on a large modern display. So I guess one vote for ditching the 16:9s..

I personally find 16:9 content to be too small on 4:3 CRTs, and I'm talking about 36" CRTs here. :shock: (Also you loose too much detail on both axis. Well, for anamorphically squeezed widescreen content you get all the definition on the vertical axis, but you need a TV with a "squeeze" mode)

Sorry I wasn't clear - I didn't mean just making a 4:3 CRT display a straight 16:9 image with black bars above & below the image, I meant changing the settings on the Wii so compatible games adjust for the 4:3 ratio and display a proper non-anamorphic fullscreen image.

That's why I play the widescreen stuff on my HDTV. Thankfully mine does a great job at upscaling 480p.

I'm not having a second giant CRT in my living room, so I understand where you're coming from :lol:

I guess if I was playing lots of 6th gen widescreen games and was hell bent on playing them on a CRT and didn't want to have 2 huge CRTs around : I would keep the big widescreen CRT and pump the older consoles through an OSSC and add scanlines ^_^ b

Sure, my problem is I haven't found an HDTV that, to me, displays even a remotely nice image for the Wii. I even bought the Samsung plasma that Josh was going on about being the holy grail for Wii & Gamecube on a flat panel but it still just couldn't get even close to a CRT. The Mario Galaxy games looked OK-ish being made up of clean, clearly defined graphical elements - but most other stuff looked dreadful. In that case, and as I wouldn't ever run 4:3 stuff on a 16:9 CRT or run ananmorphic 480p on a flat panel, I guess another vote for ditching the 16:9's and using Dolphin (in my case).

[FinalBaton]

Looks like the Wii is the sticking point. You'll have to decide wether a modern HDTV does a good enough job for you or not. If not, then I guess you need to keep a 16:9 CRT around *shrugs* or yeah use dolphin

[andykara2003]

So in that case I guess for me the question becomes do you 'lose something' by not playing on original hardware? Even though Dolphin is finally stable and stutter free, is there a kind of authenticity or hard to describe feeling of 'solidity' in playing on the hardware that the programmers directly coded to?

I do feel that with most consoles as I use real hardware and CRTs for all my pre-HD consoles - but could Dolphin be slightly different as it runs very well, it's 480p graphics lend themselves particularly well to being run at higher resolutions and it's development has been really comprehensive? I've been leaning that way but still very interested in other opinions, especially from here.

[Blair]

andykara2003, what is the model/size of the 16:9 CRT you're thinking about getting rid of? is it capable of resolutions higher than 480p?

this is an intriguing question, and the answer is going to be very personal for everyone as everyone has different priorities. for me the big draws a CRT still has over any HDTV is motion resolution and zero added input lag. even the most expensive displays today (OLEDs) still fail to meet these requirements.

for sixth and seventh generation systems like the GC/Wii I do prefer to play those games in 16:9, but I only have access to 4:3 crts. my personal solution for the Wii is using actual hardware but heavily processed. (OSSC+HD3000) that's the only solution I've found to make the Wii (and pretty much all widescreen 480p content) passable on an HDTV set. (every other standalone solution I've tried has been mediocre to terrible)

[andykara2003]

andykara2003, what is the model/size of the 16:9 CRT you're thinking about getting rid of? is it capable of resolutions higher than 480p?

It's a 32" Loewe Aconda, which is supposed to be among the best consumer 16:9 CRTs. I went with 32" because, apart from not being gigantic, the Wii's resolution won't be spread over too big an area and hopefully the image should still be quite 'tight' as a result. I haven't seen it at it's best so far as the VGA module for it hasn't arrived yet (should be a couple of days).

for me the big draws a CRT still has over any HDTV is motion resolution and zero added input lag. even the most expensive displays today (OLEDs) still fail to meet these requirements.

My biggest draw is how CRTs resolve the image - Metroid prime looks absolutely amazing on my 29" NEC - completely in another class to any HDTV I've seen. Lag is also a factor, but I choose my HDTVs based on that so my setup's not too bad.

my personal solution for the Wii is using actual hardware but heavily processed. (OSSC+HD3000) that's the only solution I've found to make the Wii (and pretty much all widescreen 480p content) passable on an HDTV set. (every other standalone solution I've tried has been mediocre to terrible)

That looks pretty nice! A touch soft but you've got rid of a lot of what makes the image so rough - do you purposely soften the image a little to help with that? I've read that the HD3000 is great for 480p upscaling - what does the OSSC do in this setup and what's the overall added latency?

[FinalBaton]

Those pics look super good Blair!

[andykara2003]

They really do! Apologies, I wasn't meaning to be critical, It's the best I've seen on an HDTV - I wish I could see it in person.

[Ikaruga11]

It all depends on your needs. The GameCube and Wii both output a 4:3 resolution of 640x480p/i and 320x240p. The Wii and GameCube do not support real widescreen, but instead anamorphic widescreen which is accomplished by stretching the 4:3 resolution to fill a 16:9 aspect ratio.
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The GameCube has far less widescreen games than the Wii does, number-wise and percentage-wise. In fact, hardly any Nintendo IP games support 16:9 on the GameCube. The only ones that do are F-Zero GX, Star Fox Adventures, Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem and Super Mario Strikers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_G ... play_modes

Another thing to consider about the GameCube is the GameBoy Player. If you want to play GB/GBC/GBA games on your GameCube, then you definitely want to play in 4:3. Use the HomeBrew software GameBoy Interface for the best results. Speaking of Homebrew, you can also use the software Swiss to force 16:9 on 4:3-only games, and 480p on 480i-only games.

Unlike the Wii, 480p and 16:9 widescreen are both set on a per-game basis with the GameCube, and not on a system basis like the Wii. This gives you far more flexibility and convenience with displaying the optimal image quality. Also, the GameCube always starts up in 480i.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The overwhelming majority of Wii games support anamorphic widescreen. In fact, a lot of Wii games will only output in widescreen.

• Another Code R
• Arc Rise Fantasia
• Donkey Kong Country Returns
• Kirby's Return to Dream Land
• Metroid: Other M
• New Super Mario Bros. Wii
• Pandora's Tower
• Rayman Origins
• Resident Evil 4
• Sin & Punishment: Star Successor
• The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
• Trauma Center: New Blood
• Trauma Team
• Xenoblade Chronicles

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=59126

Meaning if you play these games in 4:3, you'll get black letterbox bars instead of the picture filling the entire screen.

The Wii cannot use the GameBoy Player to play GB/GBC/GBA games since it doesn't fit, but it does have thousands of old Virtual Console games that you can purchase from the Wii Shop Channel. These include NES, SNES, N64, Arcade, Master System, Mega Drive, TurboGrafx-16, Neo-Geo AES, Commodore 64, etc.

All Virtual Console games output in 4:3 240p or 480i, except for N64 Virtual Console games, which all output in 4:3 480p or 480i.

Resolution and aspect ratio settings for the Wii are set from the Wii System Settings, and affect everything universally except for GameCube games.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The advantage of playing the GameCube and Wii in anamorphic widescreen for content that supports it is having the picture fill the entire screen if you're using a 16:9 display. It also gives you more field of view (FOV), meaning you can see "more" of the game.

The disadvantage of playing the GameCube and Wii in anamorphic widescreen is the picture quality becomes slightly less sharp since the square pixels are stretched into rectangular pixels to fill a wider aspect ratio. Lower pixel density. It's also bad if you're playing 4:3 only games, such as GB/GBC/GBA games through the GameBoy Player on the GameCube, or Virtual Consoles games on the Wii, since proportions will be warped and everything will appear "fat".

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Overall, I think it depends on which displays you wish to play on, what you want to play on your GameCube and Wii, and how much you care about image quality.

By the way, you can play Dolphin on CRTs.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for taking the time :) I guess I asked the question assuming people here already know all this but perhaps I'm wrong in that. A crucial point you mentioned is another reason I wanted a CRT screen that's not *too* big so as to combat the anamorphic widescreen issue. I looked into it a while back - my 29" 4:3 NEC looks great with Gamecube & Wii and apparently as long as I keep close to the basic screen area, the anamorphic image won't be a very noticeable downgrade, even with the change in pixel shape. I got the he 32" sized Loewe to be fairly close to the NEC so hopefully it should look good.

The situation where the downgrade is really noticeable is where you have the image on a flat panel in 4:3 and then switch to 16:9 - but that's largely because the 16:9 image is the same amount of pixels spread over a much larger area.

I wouldn't mind picking up one of those HD3000 units to test though - although I think they might be hard to come by now..

[Ikaruga11]

Do you plan on playing Virtual Console games or using the GameBoy Player? Do you prefer things in 16:9 or 4:3?

[andykara2003]

Do you plan on playing Virtual Console games or using the GameBoy Player? Do you prefer things in 16:9 or 4:3?

I don't use the virtual console. I play all 4:3 only games on 4:3 CRTs but if I'm honest I do prefer the wider view of 16:9 in games like Mario Galaxy that were designed for 16:9 in the first place, even though they can also be played in 4:3 non-anamorphic by design.

[Ikaruga11]

Do you plan on playing Virtual Console games or using the GameBoy Player? Do you prefer things in 16:9 or 4:3?

I don't use the virtual console. I play all 4:3 only games on 4:3 CRTs but if I'm honest I do prefer the wider view of 16:9 in games like Mario Galaxy that were designed for 16:9 in the first place, even though they can also be played in 4:3 non-anamorphic by design.

In that case, you should definitely play your Wii in 480p and 16:9. That's what I'm going to have my Wii set as too, for the same reasons. I'll have all the original consoles, so no need to emulate them on the Wii.

What about GameCube?

[andykara2003]

Sure, I think you're right, 16:9 & 480p has to be the way to go for the Wii as that was what the developers intended. I don't seem to mind playing 16:9 compatible Gamecube games in 4:3 for some reason.

Ultimately I'm a bit OCD about having a nice clean relatively sharp image so for me I think for Wii it's between having the bulky 32" CRT around or just using Dolphin. So the authentic feel of original hardware on a smaller 32" CRT that gives a relatively nice clean image, or the luxury of a much larger image size on the emulator but without that 'authentic' feel. I guess it's a personal preference thing as you say.

I think the only way is to get a PC that can play Dolphin (been meaning to upgrade anyway), and have both for a while. If Dolphin seems fine in the long run, then let go of the CRT.

[Ikaruga11]

Sure, I think you're right, 16:9 & 480p has to be the way to go for the Wii as that was what the developers intended. I don't seem to mind playing 16:9 compatible Gamecube games in 4:3 for some reason.

The only games that are meant to be played in 16:9 as the developers intended are the 16:9 only games. In all other cases, games with both aspect ratios are designed for both, and 4:3 only games are designed for 4:3 only. Pretty simple.

Ultimately I'm a bit OCD about having a nice clean relatively sharp image so for me I think for Wii it's between having the bulky 32" CRT around or just using Dolphin. So the authentic feel of original hardware on a smaller 32" CRT that gives a relatively nice clean image, or the luxury of a much larger image size on the emulator but without that 'authentic' feel. I guess it's a personal preference thing as you say.

I think the only way is to get a PC that can play Dolphin (been meaning to upgrade anyway), and have both for a while. If Dolphin seems fine in the long run, then let go of the CRT.

I think you'll probably want to go with Dolphin. The image quality is far sharper and cleaner than real hardware, and will only get better as time goes on with compatibility, stability, lag, etc.. In the long run, it is the superior choice.

[andykara2003]

The only games that are meant to be played in 16:9 as the developers intended are the 16:9 only games. In all other cases, games with both aspect ratios are designed for both, and 4:3 only games are designed for 4:3 only. Pretty simple.

Hmm - perhaps debatable. I suspect that even for dual aspect ratio games, in general Nintendo was primarily eyeing 16:9 as the standard but also wanted to cater for the older 4:3 sets as it was the crossover point between the two. Take the Galaxy games for example - Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure these were designed primarily with 16:9 in mind but they made sure they worked well in 4:3 as well.

[theclaw]

Adding more complication, Beyond Good & Evil and GCN Resident Evil 4 are non-anamorphic 16:9.
They'll look even worse just stretched to fit HDTV.

I think most Virtual Console games can upscale to 480p. Unless either 50Hz-only or Neo Geo.

[Ikaruga11]

Adding more complication, Beyond Good & Evil and GCN Resident Evil 4 are non-anamorphic 16:9.
They'll look even worse just stretched to fit HDTV.

I think most Virtual Console games can upscale to 480p. Unless either 50Hz-only or Neo Geo.

Yes, you're right.

I believe when the Wii is set to 480p, all 240p/480i content is linedoubled/de-interlaced.

[Xer Xian]

I would probably not keep a giant 16:9 CRT just to dedicate it to the GC and Wii.. The GC is very much a 4:3 console to me - what's out there that's worthy and has a 16:9 mode? Pretty much F-Zero GX only (you know RE4 is a mess on the GC, don't you). It's a different matter for the Wii, but someone on this board is working on porting GCVideo to it, which hopefully could make it appear a little bit better on modern displays. If not, I'd consider buying a video processor that does a good job with 480p material (which is, admittedly, not exactly easy to come by for some reason).

[orange808]

...what's out there that's worthy and has a 16:9 mode? Pretty much F-Zero GX only...

Eternal Darkness doesn't deserve that snub.

[Ikaruga11]

...what's out there that's worthy and has a 16:9 mode? Pretty much F-Zero GX only...

Eternal Darkness doesn't deserve that snub.

Yeah, Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Reqium is a great psychological horror game. Surprisingly, it's an M-Rated game published by Nintendo of all companies. Perhaps Nintendo wanted to get rid of the "kiddy" image that they were being painted as at the time.

With the GameCube, it's best to just stick with 4:3. Although if you really want 16:9 for games such as F-Zero GX and Eternal Darkness, luckily all you need to do is change your display's aspect ratio since widescreen (and resolution) settings are set and saved on a per-game basis.

It's a lot less convenient with the Wii though since widescreen and resolution settings are set from the Wii System Settings and dictate all content on the console (except GameCube games). So if I was playing a 240p Virtual Console game in 4:3 on my Wii, then decided I want to play Skyward Sword in 16:9, I'd have to go to my Wii System Settings, change the resolution for 480p, change 4:3 to 16:9, and then set my display's aspect ratio to 16:9. A lot of hassle. But if you have all the original consoles and/or don't want to play 240p/480i content, then stick with 480p 16:9.

The Wii U's Wii Mode is even worse. Not only do the Wii U's System setting dictate Wii Mode, but Wii Mode has it's own can of worms with unique visual issues as Extrems pointed out a while ago.

With citrus' WiiVideo mod that offers HDMI, improved YpbPr and RGBs, the Wii's image quality should become a lot sharper and clearer.

[theclaw]

Now I'm curious. Does the Wii 4:3 or 16:9 setting have an effect on Virtual Console games? If they're stretched, the TV is performing the stretching not the console.
Is there a good enough reason not to always let the Wii upscale them to 480p? I wasn't aware of any quality issues with it.

[telemetry]

VC on Wii at 16:9 is mega stupid: the console *is* performing the stretching, so you'll see the 4:3 image expanded fat-ways across the 16:9 view and stretched all across your monitor (rather than pillarboxed).

(Or you might say *not* performing the stretching, since it's the equivalent pixel data due to the fake anamorphic widescreen anyway).

At any rate, it looks repulsive with stretched VC games and widescreen Wii UI, since some part of the screen looks mismatched no matter what your TV scaling mode is set to.

[theclaw]

My bad, I guess I shouldn't blindly jump to conclusions.
I was only assuming that the Wii isn't actually expanding the image, but rather allowing it to be expanded. The latter sounds more likely how 4:3 Gamecube games work.

[Xer Xian]

Eternal Darkness doesn't deserve that snub.

Yeah, should have tagged an 'imho' to that (but nonetheless - have you played it recently? Combat mechanics were so clunky on survival horrors of that era. I couldn't play them for that reason even back then).

Another thing to add to the discussion would be - how often do you play 16:9 GC games and Wii games? If they take up a sizeable chunk of your gaming time, it may be worth keeping a dedicated display to get 100% out of the experience. Personally, I tend to come back to games where I enjoy getting better at and mastering the mechanics, and in my case those are mostly arcade games and very rarely 3D adventures/platformers or RPGs (no matter how good these felt). I don't have a Wii so I may be wrong, but its library doesn't seem to extend much in the first direction (not talking about VC here). Ironically, F-Zero GX on the GC could be one such game (but personally I like the Wipeout series more).

I'm outta here though, I feel like I've upset a few dozen people with this post

[andykara2003]

I know what you mean, the really seminal Wii games aren't that plentiful - the Galaxy games, Metroid prime trilogy, DKCR, Pikmin 1 npc and to a lesser extent Skyward sword. There are a few other more obscure games I might dip into from time to time.

I guess that's why I've been on the fence re. 16:9 - these are some of my all time favourite games and I'll go back and play them year after year, but is it worth having a dedicated 16:9 setup for so few games? For some reason, when I play 16:9 capable games on my 29" 4:3 NEC I can't help the feeling that something's missing by not playing them in widescreen. I feel Nintendo meant them to ideally be played that way and they always showcased them in 16:9 at the time.

Also, I've been collecting CRTs for years and have a collection of really nice sets with multiple backups for 15Khz and 4:3 31Khz. The only hole in my collection has been (until now), the absence couple of really good 16:9 sets for 31Khz - so adding these complete the collection for every pre-HD configuration. It feels like a shame to be collecting all these years and stop short at the last hurdle. I also already have in place my ideal signal chain setup for them - a Crescendo transcoder + Extron (for subtle sharpening) which outputs the VGA signal the 16:9 Loewes need. On the other, the sets are so big and heavy for the 32" screen size. Even my incredibly patient wife couldn't help showing her exasperation as I bought these two monsters into the house lol.

So for such a small (but cherished) collection of games it's debatable for me. As I say, any HDTV + Wii solution won't work for me so it's either the CRTs or Dolphin. Dolphin has two posibilities - either get a lower power dedicated small PC that's just for Dolphin. This might have an i5-7600K and GTX1060 to give enough headroom but not be too over the top and would be next to my gaming HDTV upstairs. The major advantage of this is the ease of a simple button press to sleep (or hybernate) the PC at the end of a play session and another button press to easily jump back into a game in a few seconds - much quicker than a real Wii and super convenient. This is one of my favourite things about the current gen consoles - you get back into the game so quickly and it would be great to have that functionality for Wii/GC games too. Then I'd just keep my slightly aged current laptop/monitor setup for normal PC use which is actually fine for general work/surfing etc. - I never use it for anything demanding.

Then there's the factor of the OS. With a dedicated Dolphin PC you're not constantly adding to the system with new software that might/will end up in a less stable or slower system requiring an eventual OS reinstall. With a that setup, you're just adding a game now and then so once you set it up, it should theoretically be perpetually stable.

The second possibility is just to get a full on gaming PC as a main PC downstairs - a full tower with a GTX1080/ti etc. I would run hidden HDMI and USB cables through the ceiling to the gaming TV upstairs and have a USB hub up there for controllers and a wireless keyboard/trackpad combo. Then you get to play PC games at the highest settings that can be played on the monitor downstairs or gaming HDTV upstairs , have a fast general purpose PC and have the possibility of VR. The downsides are this takes away a bit of the immediacy of the sleep/hybernate function for Dolphin as it always be in use for other stuff. Also, there's only a few PC games I would want to play and I'm waiting for the next generation of VR headsets to come in (wireless, less blurry etc) - so for VR it would be better to wait until then to buy a PC so as to have the best rig possible to power those (hopefully) higher resolution VR displays.


Sorry for the extremely long post! In the end, there's so many factors, I don't think there's a concrete answer and getting it all down here clarifies it all for me and allows me to step back, not worry about it and let it fall into place as time goes on. I'll probably test the 16:9 Loewes when the VGA card comes, play on them for a few weeks to enjoy them and put them into storage for now. I imagine I'll get a gaming PC & test out Dolphin and see how I get on for a while. If I don't like it, I'll have my CRTs and a gaming PC so no harm done.

And Wipeout over F-zero GX - How could you!

[Ikaruga11]

So I did some testing last night.

I set my Wii to 480p and 16:9. However, my HDTV was outputting 4:3. When I played any N64 Virtual Console game on my Wii, everything was in 4:3, despite the Wii outputting 16:9. The proportions were also exactly the same. Everything was normal.

[theclaw]

So I did some testing last night.

I set my Wii to 480p and 16:9. However, my HDTV was outputting 4:3. When I played any N64 Virtual Console game on my Wii, everything was in 4:3, despite the Wii outputting 16:9. The proportions were also exactly the same. Everything was normal.

Okay that'd confirm my original assertion.

Pillarboxing is also rare on the Wii. Supported by a few games like Mega Man 9, Mega Man 10, and Mario Party 8 (MP8 could use more research. Some releases of the game use blue borders, others use black bars). Super Smash Bros Brawl can pillarbox games that are NOT pillarboxed by the Virtual Console.