Petition: Toinclude Tempest among Shmups.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:49 pm

So, Nullstar, here's a place where we can discuss the whole thing.

I think the admin team should reconsider their opinion, so I'm begging everyone who agrees to cast their vote here. ^_^

Nullstar, while there's no doubt on point 1 (Tempest's claw moves just left and right), I don't see all the wuss for point 2. You see the ship from behind, almost like a vert: enemies swarms towards you, you shoot them while avoidint their shots... Sounds like a shmup to me. Gyruss is even more classic.

I know, I know... The "shmup" concept's charm is all about its strict conservative nature. It doesn't matter how stunning Space Harrier might have been, how artistic Rez is. They can never be our thing. Rules are rules.

I think however that Gyruss/Tempest should be considered the last evolution of the shmup concept. This not only for their merits, but also 'cause of their historical importance among the genre. Since these games just swich perspective (like Xevious' perspective differs than Gradius) and do not break any geometry rule (unlike Space Harrier and the likes), they should still be in.

Come on, let's debate! ^_^

dboeren · Post by **dboeren** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:05 pm

I would certainly consider Tempest to be a shmup. To me, it's basically a vertical scrolling shooter where you can't move up and down, only side to side. Galaga doesn't let you move up and down either, but it still counts, right?

The only differences I see are:
1. The viewpoint is warped so that the "top" of the screen (where enemies enter) is at the middle of the monitor. Just a huge fisheye effect on a regular shooter in my mind.
2. You move in discrete units rather than continuously. Well, you can argue that a pixel is a discrete unit, but there's no denying that Tempest moves 1 column at a time and there are a lot fewer columns than there are pixels. This doesn't apply to Gyruss, which moved continuously.

I haven't heard this debate before, and I'd like to know what the arguments are AGAINST making Tempest a shmup.

99pence · Post by **99pence** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:09 pm

It's not going to make any difference to Tempest. You can talk about it in the OT forum. It will still be exactly the same game.

nullstar · Post by **nullstar** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:19 pm

I'm not opposed to discussing it (though other mods may move it into OT) -- but I'm late for work as it is and will actually be in Canada most of the upcoming week, so I may be kind of boring for a bit. ;) I'll try to find a couple minutes tonight to say something on the topic, however.

I think the discussion should be constrained, however -- usually in threads like these you get n people rendering n+3 opinions (myself giving four) on what is/is not a shmup. For clarity's sake, let's agree the only thing we disagree on here is the perspective as the sole factor that's keeping Tempest and its ilk in the OT forum. My assertion (see my post in the Top 25 thread if you're unsure where this came from) is that a significant number of people over the years (perhaps a majority) who agrue all 2D, 3rd person shooters are shmups find a hiccup in that philosophy when considering stuff like Gyruss and Tempest. To be clear: we aren't debating whether Tempest is "shooty" enough or not -- and we agree it's a 2D game (unlike Space Harrier and Rez and all that newfangled 3D gameplay). The question is: does the perspective of Tempest and games like it change the game in such a way that people think of it as it's own category of shooter, one separate from their notion of "shmup."

I will remind people that stuff like Space Invaders and Galaga (what I like to call "proto-shmups") are considered on-topic because they are (A) clearly the predecessor to stuff like Xevious and (B) basically identical other than only allowing one axis of player movement. Tube shooters never took this leap into 2D movement, so can quite legitimately be seen as a sibling genre to shmups...assuming, that is, that you think a shmup requires two axes of movement (hence the "proto" in the single-axis-of-movement proto-shmup genre). There is a lot of debate over this issue, too, so it would probably be unhelpful to try and address that issue in this thread, too. (Unless it would affect someone's opinion on the matter at hand.) I'm not trying to confuse the issue -- but I think Turrican would agree that's the background on this debate.

Bydobasher · Post by **Bydobasher** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:31 pm

I think tube shmups should be included. The perspective is nothing more than Space Invaders rolled into a cylinder, which means that the gameplay remains largely unchanged -- you move left and right along a line (which happens to be circular instead of straight) and shoot anything that moves.

If we include Space Invaders and Galaga -- and we certainly should, in my opinion -- then I really don't understand how we can't include Tempest and Gyruss. They may look different, but they play the same.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:51 pm

I personally think River Raid, Megamania, Spider Fighter, and Vanguard should be included. What about Atomic Robokid? It's a strange case where you move the screen forward by yourself.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:01 pm

nullstar wrote:I will remind people that stuff like Space Invaders and Galaga (what I like to call "proto-shmups") are considered on-topic because they are (A) clearly the predecessor to stuff like Xevious and (B) basically identical other than only allowing one axis of player movement. Tube shooters never took this leap into 2D movement, so can quite legitimately be seen as a sibling genre to shmups...

Yeah. Galaga generated Xevious on one hand, and Tempest on the other. They are all siblings. If Galaga is cleary predecessor of Xevious, Tempest is clearly a Galaga successor. All in the family tree!

nullstar wrote:assuming, that is, that you think a shmup requires two axes of movement (hence the "proto" in the single-axis-of-movement proto-shmup genre). There is a lot of debate over this issue, too, so it would probably be unhelpful to try and address that issue in this thread, too. (Unless it would affect someone's opinion on the matter at hand.) I'm not trying to confuse the issue -- but I think Turrican would agree that's the background on this debate.

Yes, I do agree on everything. I also like a lot your definition of proto-shmup, assuming that you keep it inside the big Shmup family. In other words, if we agree Galaga is a proto-shmup, when one ask us:

"is Galaga a shmup?"

And we can only say "yes" or "no", then we should answer "yes" imho.

If you would say "no" because it's proto... In that case I'd think you're stretching the difference too much.

Actually, my concern is not Tempest, as I'm confident the majority of us would include it in shmups. The gripe comes with some recent tubular things... I have no direct experience of Nanotek Warrior, but I remember that N2O craft is allowed to "Jump"

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:18 pm

you can jump in Tempest, too. But I´m not sure about the meaning of this thread: you call it petition and ask people to cast their vote, but you don´t offer an option to vote against including Tempest. Why not make a vote out of this and let majority decide?

Btw. I´d prefer to not include Space Invaders. To me, X/Y-movement is a defininig element of what I call a shmup.

Bydobasher · Post by **Bydobasher** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:24 pm

If we decide to not include Space Invaders and Galaga, then Tempest and Gyruss shouldn't be included either. I think we either include all of them, or none, but I don't agree with drawing the line between Space Invaders and Tempest based on perspective, when the gameplay has so much in common.

And just to be clear, I am very much in favour of including them all. I would be okay with a vote, but seeing as how this is Malc's site, I would also be okay with him making a decree from on high one way or the other.

jp · Post by jp » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:29 pm

Tempest involves movement from the Z-Axis for the enemies. IMO shmups are defined by a limit of X/Y axis movement all around. Also, you can jump, which expands the player's movement potential from the X/Y axis to the Z-Axis.

I love Tempest, and I think its a great game. But a "shmup" it is not.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:35 pm

jp wrote:Tempest involves movement from the Z-Axis for the enemies. IMO shmups are defined by a limit of X/Y axis movement all around. Also, you can jump, which expands the player's movement potential from the X/Y axis to the Z-Axis.

I love Tempest, and I think its a great game. But a "shmup" it is not.

You can't jump in the original Tempest, only in the updated versions. Ugh, hasn't anyone played the original non 2000 Tempest?

dboeren · Post by **dboeren** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:48 pm

Right, the original Tempest only had left/right. There was no jumping. Enemies do not move along any Z axis. The player moves side-to-side wrapping around the screen "edges". The enemies move mainly downward, but occasionally side-to-side.

If you're having trouble visualizing it, take the screen, cut the "cylinder" along any one of the corridor lines, and then unfold it into a rectangle. You will see the enemies just move down and left/right. There is no extra Z axis.

Now Zaxxon is another matter!

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:57 pm

raiden wrote:you can jump in Tempest, too. But I´m not sure about the meaning of this thread: you call it petition and ask people to cast their vote, but you don´t offer an option to vote against including Tempest. Why not make a vote out of this and let majority decide?

Btw. I´d prefer to not include Space Invaders. To me, X/Y-movement is a defininig element of what I call a shmup.

Who said I don't offer an option to vote against? I couldn't do that even If I'd like to, don't you think?

There, you said yours, that I think we can count into the "NO" votes. Easy as that.

Okay, what you were really asking is why I didn't make a "poll" thread... 'cause I'm lazy

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:00 pm

you´re right, jumping wasn´t in the original Tempest. So should this jumping be what classifies Tempest as a shmup, but Tempest2000 as none? What about Giga Wing´s shield, then? Functionally, they are similar, it´s only a matter of perspective. The perspective is not the reason I don´t consider Tempest a shmup, it´s the lack of being able to move on the Y-axis. Because this lack makes the dodging shallow in comparison with games that have Y-movement. Coming from those X-axis only games, I used to play shmups in a similar way long ago, but that was primitive, and only after discovering the importance of Y-movement I came to discover the depth of the genre - that´s why I consider it a defining element. But this may be called subjective, so I really think a vote would be best.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:02 pm

I'll expand on what Bydobasher was tentatively talking about. Why do people think this is a democratic choice to make? It's their site, their forum, their voting event and if they say Tempest isn't considered a shmup for the purposes of this particular event then that's that. Accept it and live on, people.

Personally I wouldn't include Tempest either, but if they do decide otherwise, that's fine as well. I'd even keep Space Invaders out yet still include Galaga but since I have no interest in starting a debate on THAT one and it really, really doesn't matter either way, I'll just sit back and relax instead of trying to change the rules of an ultimately unimportant vote to fit my own personal world.

benstylus · Post by **benstylus** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:04 pm

I don't have a problem with calling Tempest a shmup, but then I also consider games like Space Harrier to be shmups which I know a lot of people here would say is blasphemy.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:06 pm

Who said I don't offer an option to vote against? I couldn't do that even If I'd like to, don't you think?

well, you said:

so I'm begging everyone who agrees to cast their vote here. ^_^

a petition is something that collects agreeing voices but ignores disagreeing ones. But as this issue concerns the whole board, or at least anybody participating in the top shmups vote, both sides should be weighed, that´s what I was thinking.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:32 pm

raiden wrote:
Who said I don't offer an option to vote against? I couldn't do that even If I'd like to, don't you think?
well, you said:

so I'm begging everyone who agrees to cast their vote here. ^_^
a petition is something that collects agreeing voices but ignores disagreeing ones. But as this issue concerns the whole board, or at least anybody participating in the top shmups vote, both sides should be weighed, that´s what I was thinking.

Yes, but I also said: "Come on, let's debate!"

I mean, I started this topic obviously because I'm interested in discussing the matter, much more than just cast a vote. And in order to discuss this, of course I need opinions against mine.

Anyway... I agree the Y-movement might be the single biggest leap inside the genre, and that of course it adds a lot of depth. But I don't see how this could totally separate the new games from their roots. Going by that logic, games with weird and abscure point multipliers systems (that add a lot of depth) should be considered a new genre? I don't think so. "Depth" is a great thing, but I wouldn't stretch it that far as a genre-defining thing.

Look, if I say Dodonpachi is a "manic", does this mean it's not a shmup? No. And therefore Galaga is a "proto", but still a shmup.

Until now I just repeated myself (in order to explain better), but I'll give another reason why we should keep tube games in.

It has to do with genetics. You know that variety and diversity is a plus in nature, it helps species to survive. A species that simply clones iself again and again will eventually be harmed by a single virus...

The same is with shmups. The definition is already strict enough to kill some innovation. But if you keep the definition narrow, you exclude some masterworks that the genre should be proud of.

In other words, a definition that excludes Gyruss, but keep inside millions of all-look-the-same generic shmups, simply doesn't do a great service to the shmup's cause. LOL

Speaking of which:

99pence wrote:It's not going to make any difference to Tempest. You can talk about it in the OT forum. It will still be exactly the same game.

The difference is huge. If a site like, say, Shmups talks and reviews a certain game, it will be more known even to future generations. Otherwise, its memory may fade into obscurity (not Gyruss/Tempest case, of course).

For example, many of us love borderliners, and I'm sure we agree they do get a lot less coverage on the net than shmups. This regardless of quality. A mediocre shmup gets reviews here, while an excellent borderliner doesn't.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:21 pm

Depth" is a great thing, but I wouldn't stretch it that far as a genre-defining thing.

well, for me it is - for every genre. If we were talking about a Beat em up-Poll, I´d argue to leave Way of the Exploding Fist out for lack of blocking. But actually, I´m seeing now that I don´t really care too much about the question whether games without Y-movement can be voted for. I certainly don´t consider any of them a "top" game anymore, but if many people do, I have to accept it. Basically, I have to agree with what Ghegs said.
I see your point about prototypes being part of history, our different opinions probably come from different concepts of what should be called "top". For me, it is something entirely different from "influential", while for you the two seem more related.
Back on topic: what makes Y-movement so important in my opinion is the way it opens up the 2d-playfield for the geometrical process unique to shmups, all those angles being processed in realtime by the game and the player. The player doesn´t only move his ship, he also controls where aimed bullets are aimed, and in this he controls difficulty and the flow of the game. In an isolated X-movement environment you can only be hit or not hit, but you can´t influence enemy behaviour or experiment with different ways to negotiate their attacks. But that´s what you described with the term depth already.

99pence · Post by **99pence** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:34 pm

Turrican wrote:
99pence wrote:It's not going to make any difference to Tempest. You can talk about it in the OT forum. It will still be exactly the same game.
The difference is huge. If a site like, say, Shmups talks and reviews a certain game, it will be more known even to future generations. Otherwise, its memory may fade into obscurity (not Gyruss/Tempest case, of course).

For example, many of us love borderliners, and I'm sure we agree they do get a lot less coverage on the net than shmups. This regardless of quality. A mediocre shmup gets reviews here, while an excellent borderliner doesn't.

Come off it. What about all the other non shmup games that aren't getting the same 'coverage'.

Why don't you make a "borderline" site raving about how great Tempest is insead of this farce and waste of time of figuring out what category it goes in.

Whats next? 'Metal Slug is a shmup.' 'No its got gravity.' 'Oh no what we going do.' 'The future of videogames hangs in the balance.'

Get me out of here Mr Sulu, nerd factor 9.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:37 pm

Tempest is a shmup! Its a "classic shmup", but that doesn't make it anything less.
Classic shmups rarely featured boss fights, which is why some call them "proto-shmups"?
Hey, I don't think the "boss" is what makes em shmups...its the game play and style.

Other "classic shmups".
Galaga
Phoenix
Centipede
Asteriods
Vangaurd
Scramble
GORF
Defender
Star Castle
Space Invaders

However, if strictly going by the definition of "shmups" here at SHMUPS.com, then that would leave out games such as Asteriods(lack of scrolling)
Then again, if "forced" scrolling is a must, then that would leave out In the Hunt/Metal SUB. Then again, if you consider In the Hunt a shmup, you probably consider Metal Slug to be a shmup, which its clearly not, its a Run n' Gun.

I for one would could live with Tempest being labeled as a "classic shmup". If not that, at least a "Rail Shmup". If it can't fit in with Galaga, then throw it into the Space Harrier school of thought.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:46 pm

I was reaching for that with a more subtle approach, 99pence rams at it like a stampede of wild horses.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:12 pm

Yeah, seems so. 99pence why all the hatred, really. You seem to think that this thread is some kind of nerd mental masturbation.

I'm kind of shocked you're of this opinion too, Ghegs. I've been on the forum asking such trivial things like "is there an art gallery in Gunbird?" and it was all ok. I try to discuss a definition of shmups, so why the sudden mood of superiority...

About what Bydobasher wrote, of course I agree: I would accept the admin team decision like everyone else here, I suppose. And I value Malc's opinion a lot, so it would be great to hear it from him. I didn't want to test the forum's democracy.

That said, I don't see why it's so bad talking about it. It's a subject like another and it is of actual relevance, as some of us after all could have put a tube shmup into their top 25... While putting Contra in a top 25 would be a mistake, I did not feel the same for Tempest.

I'm sorry this is passing for a fanboy's rant when it was meant to be intelligent discussion.

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:31 pm

Back on the old boards, I got in a lengthy argument about Tempest (and Tempest 2000 and so on) and whether or not it's a shmup. What I learned from that is that people really don't want to talk about it. Personally, I think excluding "classic shmups" like Galaga and Tempest cuts the shmup's heritage short. I see shmups as a continuation of those original arcade games, and the only genre that keeps that arcade spirit alive today.

I can understand not wanting to allow clearly non-shmups like Metal Slug and Space Harrier in, because that'd dilute the definition of what a shmup is. But I don't see how allowing a handful of Tempest/Space Invaders style games in would lessen the meaning of the word "shmup". My personal definition of shmups includes Tempest and Space Invader style games, and I really couldn't care less if shmup.com's definition agrees with me or not. Anyways, I don't want to get into another 200+ post argument about this, so I'll leave it at that.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:38 pm

Turrican wrote:I'm kind of shocked you're of this opinion too, Ghegs. I've been on the forum asking such trivial things like "is there an art gallery in Gunbird?" and it was all ok. I try to discuss a definition of shmups, so why the sudden mood of superiority...

No moods of superiority, it's just that the question of "what is a shmup" has been asked several times before and never has there been any decent resolve that would leave all parties satisfied. I think the best we ever got was "well, for the forum's sake we have to draw the arbitary line somewhere, so let's put it here". I was hoping to point out that the issue really isn't that important and there was no need to go through it again. Then again, all those previous debates are long gone with the old forums, so I suppose it's a necessary evil. It just gets really ugly really fast.

It's obvious you like Tempest and want to give it the due respect, which is all good. It just feels like more work than it's worth to get the game included in a list that, in the end, won't really matter a whole lot. It's just the unofficial view of a single gaming community, and there's bound to be excellent games to be left out altogether no matter what. That doesn't take away from those games' value one bit.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:58 pm

Gee guys... I see it indeed gets ugly fast. Now you make me feel bad for starting this thing. I really didn't want a war.

But, it's funny. I don't like Tempest that much. I wasn't there back then, I played it through emulation and can sense its historical value and great artistic achievement, but It wouldn't make among my faves.

It's just that I don't see all this great work Ghegs says. I mean... I didn't try to define Contra as a shmup. I did it with Gyruss. A space shooter, third person view, one heroic ship against swarms of aliens... A folded Galaga. Oh well.

99pence · Post by **99pence** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:23 pm

I feel like this kind of forum chat is futile (even though I'm getting involved. Everyones a hypocrite). It's obvious what main kind of games the shmups website is about. If there's anything that's borderline I guess its up to the creators to decide whether it goes in or not. If people want to find out about Tempest you can check out KLOV, Gamefaqs etc. Its not like it's not there.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:54 pm

99pence wrote:I feel like this kind of forum chat is futile (even though I'm getting involved. Everyones a hypocrite). It's obvious what main kind of games the shmups website is about. If there's anything that's borderline I guess its up to the creators to decide whether it goes in or not. If people want to find out about Tempest you can check out KLOV, Gamefaqs etc. Its not like it's not there.

You're right, but it's not like adding Gyruss to the shmups category detracts love to Battle Garegga, you know. I just thought there was a consistent group of people that might want the chance to vote some of these tube games. They sure do fit the genre more than any other borderliner you can think of, and by far... Since the line is blurred, the idea was to include 'em.
(edit: 'course, it's all in the creator's hands... But I hope suggestions are welcome anyway)

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:28 pm

What Twitch calls 'classic' I call 'proto-shmups'. The fact Galaga only lets you move along the x axis. The fact that Defender lets you run away from the enemies and control screen scrolling. These games break the rules of modern shmups, but they are where shmups came from. Without that list that Twitch gave (including Tempest) there would be no shmups, but I do not think they are any more 'true shmups' than Dinosaurs are true Birds. True shmups are actually a more constrained set of ideas than appeared among the 'classic' shmups. But I think there is a fundamental difference between the proto shmups and the modern shmups--enough to say that if a brand new game appeared that broke the same rules that proto-shumups do, you would not call them shmups.

On the other hand, I have no problem with those games being discussed on the On-topic board. I DO have problems with metal slug (and other run n' guns) getting discussed on the On-Topic boards because there are dozens of them and it will make the range of discussion too broad. I don't really think there is that much discussion of Galaga/Space Invaders/Tempest to really care whether it is declared on-topic or not.

Post by **system11** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:29 am

Shmup = short for Shoot Em Up. It always was, is, and will be.

Tempest is a shmup.
Robotron is too.
Black Widow, Space Invaders, Gyruss, Asteroids, even Space Tactics (just) - are all shmups.

All this rubbish about axis, scrolling, arenas etc - madness. Common sense should tell you when a game is a shoot-em-up and therefore a shmup. Don't like them? Don't vote for them!