The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

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Perikles
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The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Perikles »

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Someone complained last time that "General Gradius thread" is not fancy enough, so here we have something more lyrical for the R-Type thread - conversations about epigones or other things Irem are very welcome, too, of course!

Since I just cleared Final, thus concluding my journey with the series, I start with my impressions on that one. It's mostly going to contain critique, but there are some redeeming features here and there, too:

- I did thoroughly enjoy the atmosphere. It unfortunately oftentimes celebrates itself at the expense of the gameplay/stage design (entirely unlike Delta which combines both), but it is magnificent nonetheless. My favourite is the patched-up Dobkeratops in the laboratory which you can glimpse right when the stage starts - this once so intimidating foe is merely on life support now, a shadow of itself. It punctuates indeed the finality of the series quite nicely to finish off a Frankenstein's monster of a Bydo.

- My biggest complaint on the other hand is the shifting and turning of the screen. It's sometimes needlessly complicated to find out where exactly you are relative to everything else, and it feels cheap that you have to memorize awkward scrolling and tilting instead of threatening enemies and environmental hazards. The fifth boss is a perfect example of this - it's bad enough that the whole stage is build around the gimmick that the space warps around you (which, as described above, is sacrificing gameplay in favour of an aesthetically profound idea), but against bending and reflecting laser beams and a boss that pulls you forward it can get extremely annoying. The regular final stage has a circle that mostly consists of indestructible creatures, and there are only two enemies in this huge structure that shoot at you. This is not how you invoke unease in face of bio-horror, that's a vexing prank.

- At least they had the decency to keep Delta's "touching-terrain-is-harmless" doctrine, although I can't even begin to imagine how aggravating the game would be otherwise. Still, credit is where credit is due. Two lives without any extends and continuously manageable checkpoints are also fine with me, especially since Final doesn't loop.

- The crippling slowdowns (particularly in stage 3) and the stretches where nothing happens at all (which makes the charge shot pretty useful, I guess) are another obvious issue. Delta has some slowdowns as well to be fair, but you're always doing something, and the action never completely comes to a halt. Most of Final is just boring.

- I will concede that stage 6 is good. It's not even close to the best the series has to offer (like R-Type II's 2-6 Image), yet still stunningly close to a hermetically designed Irem stage. Hiding below the rock before the long hallway to fend off enemies from both sides warmed my heart. The hallway itself is also pretty engaging, requiring some force pod management, charge shots and what have you. Exciting!

- Scoring in Final is a true nightmare. There's a reason why you won't find a board here. Way too many ships, stage variants, an extra stage for one specific ship, five difficulty levels, who's going to keep track of all that? Besides: who would want to milk bosses that are unduly tedious as is for four or five minutes? And, worst of all, do some dedicated checkpoint milking? The thought alone! It's such a shame since they also kept Delta's system where you gain points for damaging enemies with the pod.

- The huge ship roster also comes with huge imbalances. I just played through the game with the good ol' Arrow Head, but I saw a video where someone used the Leo ship and obliterated the fifth boss with one charge shot. Instead of cramming some 100 ships in the game it would've been so much better to focus on a handful, just like in Delta, again.

- I want to give some bonus points for the inclusion of Image Fight's laser beam robots in stage 5. More Image Fight in your game is always commendable!


Overall, I'd place it on the bottom of my personal R-Type favourite list. Probably behind Super and in front of Leo which I don't like much at all since it doesn't even play like an Irem game even though it's fine on its own (better than Final to be objective). Any strong opinions from you guys? Does anyone prefer Final over some of the other main R-Types? And am I the only one that loves II the most? :o
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Agreed on pretty much everything.

The atmosphere is quite nice here and there. The art direction in general is a bit bland, though in its best moments it gains a smooth and medically sterile twilight beauty. Sadly one of the few things the game has going for it. But I do have some affection for a few setpieces, thematically.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by To Far Away Times »

It's no R-Type 1, 2, or Delta, but I enjoyed it.

I wouldn't want every shmup to be like this, but this game is unique thematically and presentation-wise so I can forgive some of the faults.

Here's my rank for the series:
R-Type
R-Type Delta
R-Type II
R-Type Leo
R-Type III
R Type Final
Super R Type
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by BIL »

Superb thread title. ^__^ Always liked Final's prologue texts. Even the more lyrical ones feel authentically weary, at times haunted.

Are the seabirds the only ones happy to see me on this beautiful summer's night... ?

^ I sig this occasionally, but tbh I can't let Metal Black's pricelessly incongruous, yet hearteningly instructive Bonus Round 2 BGM title "NON FICTION" go AWOL for long. Summer Night's prologue is darkly beautiful, though, even within its ill-fated context.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Firehawke »

Really gotta disagree on the number of ships being a problem. The point here was to show the evolution of the R-series line bit by bit and extend playability by giving you new toys periodically.

If they'd focused on maybe five ships, the game would have felt completely barebones. I don't think they really intended it to be a competitive scoring game so much as a finale and a goodbye to game development.

Much like Gradius 5, really, but G5 came out a better optimized game engine with better stage layout.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

I don't think Gradius V is or has ever been meant to be the Final Gradius game. Which is off-topic alright.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Sumez »

R-Type Final is definitely a console game, and really doesn't work, played as a competitive arcade game.
I can understand the criticism it's gotten, but it's still a really good game, and a pleasant farewell to the series.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Mero »

Does R-type Final even keep track of your total score for a run? Been more than a decade siince I've played it but I seem to recall it just keeps track of individual stage scores.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Perikles »

Mero wrote:Does R-type Final even keep track of your total score for a run? Been more than a decade siince I've played it but I seem to recall it just keeps track of individual stage scores.
Yes, it adds the individual stage scores together, just like Delta.

Which, for me, is the constant reminder why Final doesn't work in parts: Delta is quite clearly designed around the fact that it was released on consoles, too. III packs a lighter challenge than the first two games, but it has a certain arcade mentality to it (six short stages and two loops, the second of which can get quite nasty), Delta has only one loop with comparatively long stages and a masterful narrative sense of scope and progression. However, its scoring system is arguably the best in the series, while Final has the worst - even though it's the exact same one! They took most of Delta's traits (only three lives, one loop, get a higher score for actively using the pod, charge up a bomb by blocking bullets/harming enemies with the pod), the gameplay unfortunately doesn't support that very well. Which is quite sad at least to me.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

3 is like a lesser Final I guess. Some of the same issues, but less wide spread, and generally made up for. Still a lesser title, but definitely has some great moments.

That background erotica in Final 7. Holy fuck I love that stage's aesthetic.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by ciox »

You gotta admit it's not exactly an arcade shmup, it's something else entirely and it's pretty open about it, more reminiscent of old dense computer games than an arcade game.

I managed to have a lot of fun with it even if it wasn't based around typical shmup runs, you start the game and you have the original R-Type ship, then you get to the 2nd or so stage and you have the ship from II unlocked with the scattering wavecannon and you switch to that, then you get to the lab level (my favorite) and by then you can use a science ship with a research wavecannon to blend in, after beating another few stages you can stop to check out the museum and all the new beastiary entries in the Bydo Lab, it's comfy as hell if nothing else and that aspect felt both well done and pretty focused on. I don't think the team was really equipped to or ever intended to make something other than what was in the retail version.

Overall the game isn't that far from greatness, some less cheap enemy models and effects here and there (those enemy deaths that are just 2-3 giant purple particles need to go) and buffed enemy counts on higher difficulty settings would be about it.
I wonder about the latter since I heard rumblings that enemy counts can change based on ship selection and difficulty, but it's probably not enough if it's there.
- The crippling slowdowns (particularly in stage 3) and the stretches where nothing happens at all (which makes the charge shot pretty useful, I guess) are another obvious issue. Delta has some slowdowns as well to be fair, but you're always doing something, and the action never completely comes to a halt. Most of Final is just boring.
Definitely true, at least you can (or could?) play it on PS3 to have better framerates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PihQdMYbJYs#t=2m44s

The huge ship roster also comes with huge imbalances. I just played through the game with the good ol' Arrow Head, but I saw a video where someone used the Leo ship and obliterated the fifth boss with one charge shot. Instead of cramming some 100 ships in the game it would've been so much better to focus on a handful, just like in Delta, again.
That overpowered type of thing is pretty much exactly what they should have done with their huge roster to give it flavor and some memorable entries, really. I can't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure the ship with the best wavecannon doesn't excel at everything else too and it's the final 2-3 ships that cover all the bases and are on top.
Also for balance the games always were a bit out of whack, when was the red laser ever not king?
Overall I respect their 100 ships meme, I can't deny it's a cheaper and more visible way to make a splash than having 30 stages or super polished design, but it's a fitting way to reference the entire IREM shmup catalogue and give the game its "archive" feel, which again seems to have been the intention from day 1, there was never a "real arcade shmup" waiting to come out.
Overall, I'd place it on the bottom of my personal R-Type favourite list. Probably behind Super and in front of Leo which I don't like much at all since it doesn't even play like an Irem game even though it's fine on its own (better than Final to be objective). Any strong opinions from you guys? Does anyone prefer Final over some of the other main R-Types? And am I the only one that loves II the most? :o
I agree with you there, R-Type is defined by tight arcade style shmups so there's no way Final can be at the top, it's R-Type I and then II all the way for me.

Definitely love R-Type II but it has its issues, iirc you have to be even more careful to get and not lose the essential DNA laser since you won't find red powerups for a few stages and that phase is even longer than it was in the original, and the presentation has lots of unnecessary and dissapointing corner-cutting compared to R-Type I, 5-second music loops and simple repeating backgrounds everywhere though I appreciate the total unexplained blackout in stage 3 - they didn't have any more backgrounds to show so they just freaked you out by turning out the lights, definitely a cool moment built out of just improvisation
My favorite thing about it is Rios and how it inspired Gallop, it's too bad they never explored that concept further in main R-Type games, Rios ends quickly and there's nothing else quite like it in II or later.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

You make some good points there, but still, there's no reason for Final's level design to be as comparitively slow and bland as it is. I actually do love the presentation and the unlocking (both of content and information) myself, but it's kind of wasted on a game where stage 3 alone can prove a potent cure for insomnia.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Perikles »

Mortificator wrote:R-Type III has ridiculous spans of dead air.
Undeniably so. The first stage in particular seems to be based on Mode 7 trickery first and gameplay second, and that's definitely a problem. Those moments where III shines (most notably from the 2-4 boss onwards), it is outstanding, though. Switching the pod around, using the appropriate charge shots, finding the right balance between holding the ground and pressing onward, dealing with some shockingly fast enemies that flood the screen, that's not something you find very often in methodical shmups, yet alone console-exclusive ones. I'd say that stretch is among the best the series has to offer, and that's high praise. Furthermore, the designers placed great importance on checkpoint recovery - the rank drops considerably after a death, making the lava maze in 2-4 and the scarabaeus onslaught in 2-6 bearable after a gruesome mistake. Those are very tough checkpoints, but not excessively so, like some of Image Fight's or R-Type II's second loop checkpoints. Of course, that doesn't exculpate some of the boring stretches. It valorizes the end product a lot in my opinion, though. Final never gets as exciting and is furthermore consistently more docile. The first real resistance in Final happens somewhere around stage 5, and you can clear more than the first loop of III by that point in time.
ciox wrote:That overpowered type of thing is pretty much exactly what they should have done with their huge roster to give it flavor and some memorable entries, really. I can't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure the ship with the best wavecannon doesn't excel at everything else too and it's the final 2-3 ships that cover all the bases and are on top.
I can't say for certain since I haven't even unlocked that particular ship, it looks pretty overpowered all the way, though. Speaking of which: I've only access to a meager 15 ships even though I've cleared the game, that is some slow progress. :? I concede that there's nothing wrong with more options eo ipso even though it muddles some of the more agonal aspects about the game. I don't see why you have to spend so much time just to unlock the ships, however, I would've wished it was more achievement-based.
ciox wrote:Also for balance the games always were a bit out of whack, when was the red laser ever not king?
As much as I love II, I have to hand it to the first game that it is perfect in this regard: you can play every stage with every weapon, although there are some sections where one weapon might be better than another one. You can e.g. take out the crates in stage 6 with the DNA laser, but it makes you more vulnerable to the crawlers on the ceiling and floor. The yellow weapon is great for taking those out, but it only works against the crates if you're uncomfortably close to them. The blue laser damages both, but is not as efficient as either one of them at either task. You can use yellow in stage 2 to protect yourself against incoming xenomorphs and spores, use blue for some good screen coverage, or red for massive concentrated damage. It is miraculous just how balanced the first game is.


The reason why I prefer II over I and Delta (they share the second place for me) is just how hostile it is, especially its second loop. The only other Irem game that is comparable in that regard would be the original Japanese Image Fight for me (still proud of my ninja dodging in that one!), there's no etiquette, courtesy or morale to be found here, just callous, merciless slaughter. That's how I envision fighting such a threatening force as the Bydo, even when you're fully powered up, on top of the action and at a state of complete awareness you're just as scared as a little child that turns out the bedside lamp. There's a monster somewhere hiding in your room, and if it finds you, it's going to devour you. Image
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by ciox »

Squire Grooktook wrote:You make some good points there, but still, there's no reason for Final's level design to be as comparitively slow and bland as it is. I actually do love the presentation and the unlocking (both of content and information) myself, but it's kind of wasted on a game where stage 3 alone can prove a potent cure for insomnia.
A this point you'd have to know exactly who was on the team to figure out what happened, I know that Psyvariar's stage design cratered compared to earlier installments when a certain person credited with "Enemy Program" left the team.
Perikles wrote: As much as I love II, I have to hand it to the first game that it is perfect in this regard: you can play every stage with every weapon, although there are some sections where one weapon might be better than another one. You can e.g. take out the crates in stage 6 with the DNA laser, but it makes you more vulnerable to the crawlers on the ceiling and floor. The yellow weapon is great for taking those out, but it only works against the crates if you're uncomfortably close to them. The blue laser damages both, but is not as efficient as either one of them at either task. You can use yellow in stage 2 to protect yourself against incoming xenomorphs and spores, use blue for some good screen coverage, or red for massive concentrated damage. It is miraculous just how balanced the first game is.


The reason why I prefer II over I and Delta (they share the second place for me) is just how hostile it is, especially its second loop. The only other Irem game that is comparable in that regard would be the original Japanese Image Fight for me (still proud of my ninja dodging in that one!), there's no etiquette, courtesy or morale to be found here, just callous, merciless slaughter. That's how I envision fighting such a threatening force as the Bydo, even when you're fully powered up, on top of the action and at a state of complete awareness you're just as scared as a little child that turns out the bedside lamp. There's a monster somewhere hiding in your room, and if it finds you, it's going to devour you. Image
I agree that you can get serious use out of the other weapons in 1 especially, the problem appears when you want to go back to the DNA laser after experimenting with other weapons.. you find the game is very stingy with red powerups and it can take a long time to get it back, this makes you hold on to that weapon a lot longer than you would otherwise.

Had a hunch it was the added difficulty of II that made it your preference, can't deny the challenge is there and I honestly just stick with the US version as it brings more than enough pain. :lol:
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by MathU »

Perikles wrote:At least they had the decency to keep Delta's "touching-terrain-is-harmless" doctrine
You mean indecency. Really gotta disagree with this one. Removing terrain hazard is one of the things I most dislike about both games. It's just an excuse to get around the limitations of poor choice in graphical style and perspective switching--basically a game design handicap.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Herr Schatten »

MathU wrote:You mean indecency. Really gotta disagree with this one. Removing terrain hazard is one of the things I most dislike about both games. It's just an excuse to get around the limitations of poor choice in graphical style and perspective switching--basically a game design handicap.
I agree. It always felt wrong to me that you could touch the scenery in Delta and Final.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

It works really well in Elemental Master and I will fight you if you say it's objectively a bad thing everywhere.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Perikles »

It is an understandable point in regards to Final, although I'm honest and say that I'm ultimately glad because ceteris paribus the game would be incredibly unnerving if terrain were lethal. Granted, it would have been even better if they wouldn't have used it as an easy way out of the confusing screen disorientation, but with the end product in mind I would certainly not want to have it any other way. It's more than valid to bring it up, though.

Delta on the other hand feels deliberate to me. I never had problems to comprehend where I am relative to everything else so I can very well imagine this game having the classic system instead of the more accessible solution they invented here. I don't, however, perceive it as unusual/jarring since it is scarcely important I'd say. In the first two stages it doesn't make much of a difference, the gigantic walker in stage 3 still counts as lethal terrain, stages 5 & 7 have no terrain at all, just enemies or hazards that are deadly on touch. It was perhaps intended to ease the claustrophobic nature of stages 4 & 6 and it's certainly an interesting question how they would play out with the usual approach.

Just out of curiosity: what's your stance on the ability to switch the ship speed on the fly instead of collecting specific speed-up icons for Delta & Final? I feel those two aspects are somewhat related to each other since terrain is the natural enemy of a fast, harder to precisely control ship. Playing with more than two speed-ups in any of the older R-Type games is frightening while you don't worry about it in Delta & Final since you can just change it back and there's no risk involved when it comes to walls. It takes away from the long-term planning, for sure, but it also encourages more aggressive play which in turn supports the scoring systems.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

I am of the opinion that dying because you were locked into a move speed too fast and unwieldy for the challenges faced is shit game design :3

Speed control always better IMO. Let us feel good when we're dodging. Or at least design the game so that the speed you move at is the most efficient for the challenges you face.

Speeding up via power ups is acceptable to me if it's a careful part of some recoveries though. Not that I like recoveries, but I can respect them in some games.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Mortificator »

I don't have strong feelings either way about non-destructive scenery (which, I will note, was previously in the fully 2D R-Type spin-off Gallop). The speed control is a straight improvement, though. As the series transitioned from being played on arcades to consoles, it made sense to take advantage of the shoulder buttons.

That's not to say that using speed-up power-ups is bad design, but that they should be accompanied by some mechanism to slow down. Gradius hit on a good solution within its power capsule mechanics when the later games let you wrap back around to initial speed.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Sumez »

Could this possibly be the oldest discussion on shmups11.org?
Here's my stance - I love Gradius, R-Type, Pulstar, Parodius, all of them, I don't care [that much] if the terrain kills me. But I do not believe it could ever be considered objectively good game design.

How often are you killed by touching the floor/ceiling and find yourself thinking "well dang it, I just did really poorly!" as opposed to "Fuck you fucking shit game!" ?

I thought so.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Perikles »

Sumez wrote:How often are you killed by touching the floor/ceiling and find yourself thinking "well dang it, I just did really poorly!" as opposed to "Fuck you fucking shit game!" ?
For as long as the collision detection is fine I do indeed blame myself. If you could e.g. touch the tubes in the original R-Type's sixth stage instead of carefully positioning yourself between them and the crates (or between the crates and the floor/ceiling) there'd be no tension whatsoever and it'd be a pretty boring stage. Working with and discovering how to properly use the terrain to your advantage is one of the most rewarding things to me in a classic horizontal shmup. Environment can protect you from bullets but it can also be your downfall if you are not careful, that's a fair trade-off. And frankly, if you're constantly crashing into it you're probably doing something fundamentally wrong (again, assuming the game is properly designed). As with almost all things in the genre it depends on the context, it's the execution that matters (same goes for energy bars or shop systems, too). And I feel it's safe to say that Irem games are among the absolute best when it comes to that. In quite a few of them you don't even die when touching terrain, actually (Dragon Breed, Gun Hohki, Mr. Heli*, the aforementioned R-Type Delta & Final, Gallop's been named which I haven't played myself yet), but it definitely works excellently in your arcade R-Types or X-Multiply or Image Fight.


*Which also features a health bar and a shop system and is still a superb game, thus perfectly proving my point from above.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by pegboy »

This thread just reminds me more and more that I need to play and clear the entire series. Sadly I've only cleared the 2 SNES games, really want to invest some more time in the series but I just don't have the time. I do think the first game is probably the best in the entire series from a balance perspective based on what I've played.

I do kind of appreciate Super R-Type for what it is, being a very early SNES game that does stay true to the arcade games has got to count for something, even if the slowdown is crippling at times. I find this game to be one of the few where the slowdown actually makes the game harder than it should be.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by neorocker »

i think r-type final is pretty gutsy and, all things considered, pretty terrifying for a shmup. i'd love more stuff that feels as uninviting and unhappy as it does in the shmup world. i always get the feeling that nobody working on the project was having a particularly good time and that it came out in the form of final.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by AxelMill »

A few days ago I finished (read: credit-fed through) R-Type III, on SNES, of course, screw the GBA port.
After the first stage, which is so boring and tedious and full of nothing that it makes me want to kill myself, everything picks up and becomes fun. Even stage 4, the one with what's supposed to be lava, flowing wherever it wants, isn't all that bad with the trial and error. Maybe I was just that patient at the time.
Kudos to the really fun stage 5 boss rush and the pretty epic final boss (I'm sad that it lacks any kind of explosion, because it's clearly the most important thing in a shmup. Metal Black came out two years earlier, y'know).

Side note: Am I the only one who thinks the stage 3 theme bears an uncanny resemblance to Donkey Kong Country's Jungle Hijinx? I know R-Type III came out first, but...

That means I only not played a single R-Type shmup now, and that's Super R-Type. I highly doubt I'll play it, though, considering it's merely R-Type II: The Bad Version, and it's not like I like II, either. Personally I find it to be little more than a level pack for the first game with slightly better graphics and the first iteration of the multi-level beam.

I'll join the Final discussion at a later time, sorry. I'm sad, too.
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Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by Van_Artic »

i played the fuck out of Final to unlock all 101 ships back in 2008 and had a lot of fun doing it
this thread is making me wanna play it all over again
JesDaMess
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:27 am

Re: The Bydo are a man-made nightmare...

Post by JesDaMess »

I recommend playing final on an emulator for the best experience. Truly a great game that was hampered by its platforms hardware capabilities. Playing segments like stage 3 are less tedious with little to no slowdown and added challenges like the final boss pattern being significantly faster make it a more challenging experience.
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