No way to add RGB back to a NTSC Gamecube's analog AV port?

cr4zymanz0r · Post by **cr4zymanz0r** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:00 pm

So I know by default PAL Gamecubes have RGB on the analog AV port and NTSC Gamecubes don't. Whenever I try to look up mods to add RGB to a NTSC Gamecube, all I ever see are ones involving modifying the component cable that plugs into the digital AV port.

I know in a SNES model 2 to get RGB back it's basically just reconnecting the signals coming out of the video encoder to the correct pins on the AV port. Can something similar not be done for a NTSC Gamecube? If this is impossible I'd be curious to know why since I've never seen any reasoning other than simply "NTSC Gamecubes don't have RGB on the analog AV port". Is it really 'impossible' such as the NTSC GC video encoder just not outputting RGB, or is it simply no one has ever bothered to try due to the component cable and Wii backwards compatibility??

Backstory: I have a GC component cable in my main setup going to a HDTV, but it is a convoluted beast where I can't just easily move the component cable when I want to use it somewhere else. I have a spare Gamecube and Gameboy Player hooked to a PVM in the other room using GBI ULL for 240p, but I want something better than s-video without breaking the bank with another GC component cable or waiting for the component cable clones that also probably won't be terribly cheap.

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:11 pm

I believe the conclusion people have come to is that you'd have to change the region of the Gamecube to PAL, i.e. it's a software issue.

Of course you can still use GCVideo to convert the digital signal available on all Gamecubes, but it sounds like you don't want to do that?

cr4zymanz0r · Post by **cr4zymanz0r** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:24 pm

bobrocks95 wrote:Of course you can still use GCVideo to convert the digital signal available on all Gamecubes, but it sounds like you don't want to do that?

It doesn't look like it's available yet to buy as an assembled kit if i'm not mistaken, and there's no time frame to my knowledge of when an external solution will be available. I haven't researched it a ton. I was hoping maybe there's just a simple mod to reconnect RGB in a NTSC GC with a little bit of wires, resistors, etc.

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:05 pm

cr4zymanz0r wrote:It doesn't look like it's available yet to buy as an assembled kit if i'm not mistaken, and there's no time frame to my knowledge of when an external solution will be available.

The pluto board is pretty much assembled, unless that's not really what you meant. Are you waiting for people to offer install services or just looking for a cleaner installation than the Pluto board? I'm assuming it's one of the two, since you're ready to mod the console for RGB anyway.

I was hoping maybe there's just a simple mod to reconnect RGB in a NTSC GC with a little bit of wires, resistors, etc.

I think it's more like somehow flash the BIOS and then get used to forcing 60Hz in software. I could be wrong though, but I searched extensively for this back before GCVideo was out, since I didn't want to buy a component cable.

Extrems · Post by **Extrems** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:36 am

bobrocks95 wrote:I believe the conclusion people have come to is that you'd have to change the region of the Gamecube to PAL, i.e. it's a software issue.

No, it's the video encoder.

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:00 am

Ah, so it's hardware-based then? The whole DAC would have to be bypassed, essentially making it GCVideo?

cr4zymanz0r · Post by **cr4zymanz0r** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:27 am

Extrems wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:I believe the conclusion people have come to is that you'd have to change the region of the Gamecube to PAL, i.e. it's a software issue.
No, it's the video encoder.

As in the video encoder simply doesn't output RGB on any pins, or the output pins just aren't hooked to anything?

BazookaBen · Post by **BazookaBen** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:50 am

You can totally add RGB to a Gamecube.

First, get in a time machine, go to 1970's Japan. Purchase at least 30% of their stock. Get back in time machine, go forward to 1999. Really push them on including RGB for all regions in project "Dolphin" whenever there's a board meeting. They won't understand why you're so passionate about it, but you hold about 4 billion dollars worth of the company so they go with it.

Then come back to present and enjoy your RGB modded gamecube.

Guspaz · Post by **Guspaz** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:19 am

My experience with a PAL cube motherboard connected to a chipped NTSC drive is that the console boots in PAL but switches to NTSC (60hz 480i) if you put an NTSC game in. No forcing or homebrew was required for that. This gives you NTSC RGB for 240p and 480i.

To do a straight-up mod, stick a gcvideo-lite in and wire it up to the multi-av port.

Unseen · Post by **Unseen** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:46 am

cr4zymanz0r wrote:As in the video encoder simply doesn't output RGB on any pins, or the output pins just aren't hooked to anything?

Nintendo used different encoders for the PAL and NTSC versions of the console. The PAL version doesn't output S-Video on any of its pins, the NTSC version does not output RGB on any of its pins.

For the Wii, it's indeed just a software issue.

cr4zymanz0r · Post by **cr4zymanz0r** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:07 pm

Unseen wrote:
cr4zymanz0r wrote:As in the video encoder simply doesn't output RGB on any pins, or the output pins just aren't hooked to anything?
Nintendo used different encoders for the PAL and NTSC versions of the console. The PAL version doesn't output S-Video on any of its pins, the NTSC version does not output RGB on any of its pins.

For the Wii, it's indeed just a software issue.

Probably the question that will be the final nail in the coffin: Does the NTSC video encoder have un-amped RGB input that it uses encode composite and s-video (which then in theory the un-amped RGB could be tapped then amped), or is the encoder using some digital signal or something else as it's input that's unusable for this idea?

Unseen · Post by **Unseen** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:31 am

cr4zymanz0r wrote:Does the NTSC video encoder have un-amped RGB input that it uses encode composite and s-video (which then in theory the un-amped RGB could be tapped then amped), or is the encoder using some digital signal or something else as it's input that's unusable for this idea?

The Gamecube's AV encoder does not have any analog inputs, it receives the image as a digital data stream.

leonk · Post by **leonk** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:22 am

Given that GC is all digital then the current hdmi solution is the best one can get image wise. I wish there were 3D printed panels to make it look more finished.

Ikaruga11 · Post by **Ikaruga11** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:53 am

Unseen wrote:
cr4zymanz0r wrote:Does the NTSC video encoder have un-amped RGB input that it uses encode composite and s-video (which then in theory the un-amped RGB could be tapped then amped), or is the encoder using some digital signal or something else as it's input that's unusable for this idea?
The Gamecube's AV encoder does not have any analog inputs, it receives the image as a digital data stream.

So you're saying the GameCube is all digital? If it's entirely digital, then why doesn't RF, Composite, S-Video or RGB cables need a DAC chip? Why can't component cables be used on the analog port, or RF/Composite/S-Video/RGB on the digital port?

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:10 am

leonk wrote:Given that GC is all digital then the current hdmi solution is the best one can get image wise. I wish there were 3D printed panels to make it look more finished.

One install method with Badassconsoles' board will be to replace the digital connector with a Wii multi-out. Should look very clean.

GeneraLight wrote:
Unseen wrote:
cr4zymanz0r wrote:Does the NTSC video encoder have un-amped RGB input that it uses encode composite and s-video (which then in theory the un-amped RGB could be tapped then amped), or is the encoder using some digital signal or something else as it's input that's unusable for this idea?
The Gamecube's AV encoder does not have any analog inputs, it receives the image as a digital data stream.
So you're saying the GameCube is all digital? If it's entirely digital, then why doesn't RF, Composite, S-Video or RGB cables need a DAC chip? Why can't component cables be used on the analog port, or RF/Composite/S-Video/RGB on the digital port?

You're misunderstanding. The INPUTS to the video encoder are entirely digital. The video encoder then generates RF, Composite, and S-Video or RGB depending on the region. For component the digital signal is passed to the digital out port, then generated externally.

If you want RGB, you'd need to bypass the video encoder entirely. This is what Unseen's GCVideo project does.

Ikaruga11 · Post by **Ikaruga11** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:17 pm

bobrocks95 wrote:If you want RGB, you'd need to bypass the video encoder entirely. This is what Unseen's GCVideo project does.

So I can output 480p RGB over SCART using Unseen's GCVideo on an NTSC GameCube?

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:09 pm

What do you have that accepts 480p over SCART?

It can do RGBHV or YPbPr in 480p.

Ikaruga11 · Post by **Ikaruga11** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:26 pm

bobrocks95 wrote:What do you have that accepts 480p over SCART?

It can do RGBHV or YPbPr in 480p.

Nothing. I just wanted to know if 480p RGB is possible. CSync or RGsB.

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:03 pm

It's possible, just hardly anything supports it. VGA (RGBHV) is the standard for 480p RGB signals, but there were some TVs in Europe that I think Fudoh said had gold SCART inputs that supported up to 1080i. The OSSC I believe also accepts 480p on its SCART connector. That's all I can really think of though if you're strictly talking SCART.

If you're just talking RGB in general instead of SCART specifically, you can send RGBHV over component cables or a VGA cable. I don't think GCVideo supports 480p RGBS, because really hardly anything does.

Unseen · Post by **Unseen** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:23 pm

bobrocks95 wrote:I don't think GCVideo supports 480p RGBS, because really hardly anything does.

Of course it can, there are seperate pads for H-, V- and C-Sync and they output valid signals in all video modes.

Arasoi · Post by **Arasoi** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:13 pm

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:41 pm

Didn't know, my bad. I still don't think SCART is appropriate for 480p unless you have a scaler that takes it though.

Guspaz · Post by **Guspaz** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:02 pm

Arasoi wrote:
Unseen wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:I don't think GCVideo supports 480p RGBS, because really hardly anything does.
Of course it can, there are seperate pads for H-, V- and C-Sync and they output valid signals in all video modes.
That's a pretty handy feature for scalers or multisync monitors. Replace CVBS with csync from the GCVideo on the A/V out connector, hookup RGB to A/V out and use standard cables, regardless of video mode. I'll have to upgrade from component to GCVideo at some point

Why not hook up csync from GCVideo to the csync pin on the A/V out connector? I'm not sure why you'd replace composite with c-sync and leave the c-sync pin unconnected.

theclaw · Post by **theclaw** » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:57 pm

What about good external component to RGBs encoders? Those already own a component cable shouldn't have to modify the console for RGB monitors then.

Guspaz wrote:My experience with a PAL cube motherboard connected to a chipped NTSC drive is that the console boots in PAL but switches to NTSC (60hz 480i) if you put an NTSC game in. No forcing or homebrew was required for that. This gives you NTSC RGB for 240p and 480i.

To do a straight-up mod, stick a gcvideo-lite in and wire it up to the multi-av port.

Yeah that behavior is a issue for NTSC cubes. They don't generate correct PAL color, so 50hz mode turns monochrome with composite or s-video.
You need to either force 60hz or use workarounds like component.

Guspaz · Post by **Guspaz** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:14 am

I'm not sure how that issue applies, though, as I'm using a PAL cube motherboard with an NTSC drive, which is outputting RGB. Both PAL and NTSC output (depending on the game) work fine over RGB (and by extension component via the HDR cables). You shouldn't need to force anything. The only real downsides are no 480p support and the PAL system menu (if your TV doesn't do PAL at all).

For external component to RGBS encoders, the Extron CVC 300 is very cheap on eBay, but the seller doesn't ship outside the US. There is also the GARO, which costs more, but can be purchased internationally.

theclaw · Post by **theclaw** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:44 am

Guspaz wrote:I'm not sure how that issue applies, though, as I'm using a PAL cube motherboard with an NTSC drive, which is outputting RGB. Both PAL and NTSC output (depending on the game) work fine over RGB (and by extension component via the HDR cables). You shouldn't need to force anything. The only real downsides are no 480p support and the PAL system menu (if your TV doesn't do PAL at all).

For external component to RGBS encoders, the Extron CVC 300 is very cheap on eBay, but the seller doesn't ship outside the US. There is also the GARO, which costs more, but can be purchased internationally.

It's just a comparison. I was describing the situation faced by NTSC cube motherboards.

Anyhow, thanks for the encoder suggestions.

darcagn · Post by **darcagn** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:42 am

bobrocks95 wrote:It's possible, just hardly anything supports it. VGA (RGBHV) is the standard for 480p RGB signals, but there were some TVs in Europe that I think Fudoh said had gold SCART inputs that supported up to 1080i. The OSSC I believe also accepts 480p on its SCART connector. That's all I can really think of though if you're strictly talking SCART.

The XRGB-mini accepts 480p on its SCART input. I use it for Dreamcast, as my TV doesn't have VGA input. Just take the VGA output, combine the H- and V-sync to C-sync, and run it to a SCART connector, and the XRGB-mini happily takes it.

PascalP · Post by **PascalP** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:00 pm

That gcvideo looks very promising and I think I will purchase a kit from badassconsoles.com
But as I have a PAL Gamecube and the 480p library is very very limited there is not much use I think...?

What would be the best solution for me you guys think?
Get a NTSC Gamecube and install a gcvideo kit, or will modding my PAL Gamecube with a modchip and installing a gcvideo give me the same result (when running NTSC games of course)?

Extrems · Post by **Extrems** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:25 pm

Swiss can patch most PAL games. 576p is also an option and a few games benefit from it.

Ikaruga11 · Post by **Ikaruga11** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:56 pm

Extrems wrote:Swiss can patch most PAL games. 576p is also an option and a few games benefit from it.

Which games benefit from it?

shmups.system11.org

No way to add RGB back to a NTSC Gamecube's analog AV port?

No way to add RGB back to a NTSC Gamecube's analog AV port?

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