General Gradius thread

[Despatche]

I'd get a Wii for games like Gradius ReBirth and Mega Man 10 alone. You could even emulate, if you wanted.

I always figured Gradius III SFC was also a really good game, but something has to be done about that slowdown. It's just too much to be playable.

[gs68]

I still have ReBirth on my Wii. I like it a lot, it's good if you want a game you can loop easily. Type E is comedy, however. You essentially screw yourself over for stage 2 and bonus stages if you get V. Shot (no forward firing, lmao) or the wave shot (excellent piercing but subpar damage and it ignores destructible walls instead of destroying them).

Gaiden is my personal favorite. It's the only Gradius game with loadout options where I feel comfortable using any ship/type.

[Obiwanshinobi]

That's also the reason I want to play Gradius ReBirth, it looks like it would be right up my alley. Too bad they released it on the Wii.

Forget the assumption Nintendo-developed games on it are any good* and you're in for a remarkably good time.

*) With the exception of some VC oldies I suppose.

[SMC]

Can anyone shed some light on this glitched out Dogas at 4:10? I've had no success replicating it at all.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4609499

EDIT: just saw a player doing it live on stream, so I guess there's some trick to it.

[copy-paster]

Rebirth looks like a fanmade-quality game, can't speak more because I haven't played it.

The original, at least on NES, is soooooo boring. It only gets slightly challenging at like the 6th level.

Then play the arcade version.

I also recommend to play the NES sequels (Life Force, II) it has more stage variety and challenges.

[Perikles]

Can anyone shed some light on this glitched out Dogas at 4:10? I've had no success replicating it at all.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4609499

EDIT: just saw a player doing it live on stream, so I guess there's some trick to it.

saucykobold had a suspicion regarding this anomaly:

By any chance, did the midboss spin around without releasing any small heads? I've seen this a couple times and I believe I know what triggers it. Around the third or fourth moai column, there's a pair of red ships that chase you. If you kill the top ship and let the bottom one fly away, the midboss won't open its mouth. I haven't tried doing this when fully powered up, but it seems to always work when I respawn at the last checkpoint in the stage.

Never tested it myself, but the same happens in the video, looks like it might be the reason for this strange behaviour, indeed.

[Magma Dragoon]

Rebirth looks like a fanmade-quality game, can't speak more because I haven't played it.

Rebirth is mostly a nostalgia fanservice game, it's not bad but it's really short and you can only see the true ending after beating the third loop.

[Despatche]

It's "really short" because of two reasons: it's a remake of a Game Boy game (all of the ReBirth games are) that only had five stages, and because the developers correctly understand that the game is much longer than a single loop.

Rebirth looks like a fanmade-quality game

It looks like fucking Gaiden. Like, maybe you're specifically talking about Storm Assault or something, but that shit isn't normal, that's not "fanmade". That's godly, that's Gaiden quality.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Gradius Galaxies/Advance (originally sold at a higher price point than ReBirth, admittedly) looks every bit as good as I'd expect of any generation lo-res 2D shmup - wouldn't look out of place in the arcades. I have yet to play ReBirth, but the first NEW 2D horizontal shmup since Galaxies to match its presentation I saw was no other than Hydorah. Can't remember how Steel Empire GBA remake looks like, but the original Koutetsu Teikoku wasn't quite among its time's most polished games, presentation-wise, so I wouldn't expect the remake to be all that either.

[doom_]

Being a Gradius veteran, I do think V is way more accessible and forgiving than its predecessors, but it never feels easy or impossible. It maintains a great balance and is very good at making you accountable for your own mistakes.

Visually though, it's so stunningly beautiful (and can be hacked to run in 480p, to get rid of the interlace flicker) that I find myself playing it more often than the others. The awesome music is also a great excuse to play it really loud and just can't stop being amazed at the attention to detail and the technical excellence of the engine. It's a blast every time.

So you are playing it on PC? Does ist run good on emulators? :O

[Rolman]

Being a Gradius veteran, I do think V is way more accessible and forgiving than its predecessors, but it never feels easy or impossible. It maintains a great balance and is very good at making you accountable for your own mistakes.

Visually though, it's so stunningly beautiful (and can be hacked to run in 480p, to get rid of the interlace flicker) that I find myself playing it more often than the others. The awesome music is also a great excuse to play it really loud and just can't stop being amazed at the attention to detail and the technical excellence of the engine. It's a blast every time.

So you are playing it on PC? Does ist run good on emulators? :O

Oh, no emulators for me, I'm playing on a real PS2. You can either patch the game or use the GSM hack to force 480p output (can even get it up to 1080i, which is not really an improvement but does show how technically impressive the engine is).

However, if you really want to know how Gradius V runs on an emulator, you can always get the PSN release on PS3

[Obiwanshinobi]

OFF-TOPIC

You can either patch the game or use the GSM hack to force 480p output (can even get it up to 1080i, which is not really an improvement but does show how technically impressive the engine is).

I know PS2 technically outputs "1080i" (no idea of horizontal resolution in this mode); Virtual-On port (Sega Ages) officially supports it and I THINK Gran Turismo 4 (NTSC) does (feel free to prove me wrong), but does it really render those games natively in 1080i, or just scales up?

[SMC]

Can anyone shed some light on this glitched out Dogas at 4:10? I've had no success replicating it at all.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4609499

EDIT: just saw a player doing it live on stream, so I guess there's some trick to it.

saucykobold had a suspicion regarding this anomaly:

By any chance, did the midboss spin around without releasing any small heads? I've seen this a couple times and I believe I know what triggers it. Around the third or fourth moai column, there's a pair of red ships that chase you. If you kill the top ship and let the bottom one fly away, the midboss won't open its mouth. I haven't tried doing this when fully powered up, but it seems to always work when I respawn at the last checkpoint in the stage.

Never tested it myself, but the same happens in the video, looks like it might be the reason for this strange behaviour, indeed.

It works!
I don't know how, but it works.

[Rolman]

OFF-TOPIC

You can either patch the game or use the GSM hack to force 480p output (can even get it up to 1080i, which is not really an improvement but does show how technically impressive the engine is).

I know PS2 technically outputs "1080i" (no idea of horizontal resolution in this mode); Virtual-On port (Sega Ages) officially supports it and I THINK Gran Turismo 4 (NTSC) does (feel free to prove me wrong), but does it really render those games natively in 1080i, or just scales up?

It's natively rendered in 1080i. Games not made to support the mode usually crash for a myriad reasons.

Gradius V runs in 1080i but it gets stretched to 16:9. If you have a CRT that can handle the resolution and can be forced to 4:3, it's playable. I can post some pictures later if you're interested.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Some nice photos would be welcome! Although even in 480i certain custom weapons (I think the charged shot with a full set of options does) inflict massive slowdown, so in higher resolution I'd expect it to get worse still.
Ever tried to force Contra: Shattered Soldier into it? In 480i never seemed to drop a single frame to me.
I've always liked the antialiasing-antiflicker applied in both, wondering why it's not any more common in PS2 games (out of such other low-profile titles, Psyvariar 2 has it as well). Truth be told, on RGB CRT I might like it better than prog-scanned 640x480 in computer games, or Dreamcast's 480p on VGA monitor. This kind of soft picture used to differentiate console games from computer games to me back in the day. Funny how these days with another-gen console games displayed on the same LCD as computer games, there's a striking difference again (the former pretty much always upscaled horizontally, with inevitable artifacts at that), but not favourable to the consoles this time (not a thing I've seen on PS3 looks as sharp as the first Unreal Tournament on the same TV, and from what I read of usual Xbox 360 resolutions - it fares no better in that respect).

[BrianC]

Forget the assumption Nintendo-developed games on it are any good* and you're in for a remarkably good time.

Disagree here. I found the Mario games to be very good, especially the Galaxy games. Most of the better Nintendo published games on the system are outsourced, though.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, the Galaxy titles are probably the most fun I've had with a Mario title outside of Mario 3.

[copy-paster]

Just got a clear of Gradius II PCE on Hard.

I'd never know the desert stage is beatable with Type 4 ship, and the last stage though is more difficult then the arcade, will try Professional mode someday.

[Perikles]

Might as well transplant my discoveries regarding the PCE Gradius II since it's been brought up:

The ripple laser has a significantly improved accuracy. This can be easily tested on ground enemies (take those in the second stage for example) which are tricky to hit in the arcade original.

The Force Field is not nearly as sensitive towards terrain, you have to be very close to it in order to lose it.

The shot frequency is quite a bit higher with the default pea shooter, helping out a lot in the beginning or in cases of recovery.

The more generous extend routine enables players to counterstop the game at the boss marathon at least in theory. It's extraordinarily finicky to do, however, as you'll see below.

Some of the impossible checkpoints are still impossible, but easier. Yay on that!

First stage has a lot less dragons no matter how you play it. This makes subsequent loops a hell of a lot easier, but deprives you of some power up capsules. Enemy pugnacity (including suicide bullets) is severely toned down in higher loops, too. The boss on the other hand is faster and not as static as he is in the arcade version.

Second stage is pretty much the same. A tad bit easier on higher loops than in the arcade. I don't know if it is merely a graphical matter, but it seems like I can't hit the boss sometimes. I'm pretty sure he dies about as fast as he does in the arcade, though.

Third stage is a lot easier in the PCE due to the reduced durability of the ice blocks. Even higher loops don't pose any threat since it is no problem to take out every block and shard before they will come close to you. The ripple laser is no longer able to hit the boss when he folds his tentacles in front of him.

Fourth stage is very similar to its original version. The boss is a bit easier on higher loops because you get a bit more space (one less volcano on-screen), but that doesn't matter either way. The second phase has a lot less health, too. I do think that the volcanoes spit out less fireballs during the stage, it's not all that significant, though.

Stage five is interesting. Moai heads shoot more rings, yet they travel slower. It's considerably simpler to hit and destroy those moais that are lying on the floor and ceiling. They are allowed to assassinate you from off-screen which will not happen in the arcade version. The boss fight is harder for the available space is reduced, but he still doesn't stand a chance against the ultimate herding technique.

The new sixth stage simply rocks, especially on higher loops. Superb level design, magnificent soundtrack, just like the new MSX-inspired stage in the first PCE Gradius. Fairly challenging on higher loops, too, with a very aggressive boss to boot.

High speed stage remains mostly unaltered. Turrets still don't fire suicide bullets on higher loops. The boss is a tad bit more resilient for some reason.

Boss parade is harder, chiefly on higher loops. Zub rush is even nastier in the PCE (more of the regular ones, even worse spawn conditions regarding the active hitboxes of those pests), Covered Core is flat-out more dangerous. Gau's eyeballs are easier to hit which ironically makes him significantly harder on higher loops (constant stream of suicide bullets), especially considering that his first phase has more health. Brain golem is scarier due to the reduced space.

Final stage is harder on the PCE, particularly on higher loops, jeez. Less space makes it hard to maneuver, you need an entirely different approach for Club as well. Maybe I'm imagining things but I could swear that the tiles are extremely aggressive in this version. Gun wall is not nearly robust anymore on the other hand. Gofer is still the strongest.

In conclusio: a miraculous port, indeed. I would've eased both the zub rush and the final stage a tiny bit as to accommodate it to the rest of the game, 's not a huge issue, however. Konami had an amazing streak during the 16-bit days, a lot of their PCE and SFC ports are incredible (SFC Parodius Da!, SFC Gradius III, PCE Gradius, PCE Salamander, PCE Detana!! TwinBee, PCE Gradius II) and even their weaker outputs are still good at least (SFC Gokujou Parodius, PCE Parodius Da!).

I'm currently getting back to Gradius II, actually. Will probably try to learn how to play with four options and perhaps one more speed-up for scoring reasons, and I most certainly will have to study high-loop recoveries, there's no way not to die at some point in time when aiming for a credit that lasts several hours. Dragon Blaze as the side game should provide some interesting contrast, heh.

[davyK]

My first experience of Gradius was the original game in the arcade. I found it a hugely compelling experience and couldn't stop feeding coins into the machine. Some years later I got hold of the NES port and I can remember it being highly enjoyable and feeling like the game though not as difficult. It also suffers from slowdown and flicker in places but still played very well.

But I had forgot how great that first game was. I got the Saturn version a short time ago after years of playing the later sequels including the excellent V from Treasure and I was surprised just how great the original was in terms of balance and general enjoyability. I still consider it among the best ever and I rate it above RType.

Am a huge fan of Parodius. First experienced the solid SNES port but have since gone on to acquire all of the Saturn entries in the series.

The WiiWare game is rather good if short, and it suffers from slowdown in places though I assume it is deliberate. Have played a bit of Gradius Gaiden which is spectacular but I haven't spent enough time with it to rank it in the series.

[Perikles]

I don't see why not. I suppose you could throw in Thunder Cross since it canonically takes place in the same universe, but that one might be a bit of a stretch given the lack of options or a power up bar.

Besides I really don't like Thunder Cross 1, as it's probably one of the least rewarding 1-alls I've had. Bit of a snoozer that one, until recoveries on the last boss reduces your dps vs him to dph (damage per hours).

I've been playing the two Thunder Cross games recently and enjoyed them for what they provide. I can nonetheless understand your disappointment: especially the first game is a little bit anemic if you settle for one loop. I think that you need to have a predilection for multi-looping sessions in order to truly get something out of those games. High-loop recoveries are not entirely balanced as some stages can be overcome and others are pretty much impossible without a huge stock of lives which can be a trifle problematic. You might enjoy the sixth stage of Thunder Cross II in particular, even after knowing where the laser beams come from you have to do a lot of twitch dodging.

I also find it interesting that Thunder Cross II incorporates some influences you'd probably not expect in a Konami game. The second boss (RAGAMUFFIN) looks like something you'd find in a Turrican game, the final boss is clearly modeled after its counterpart in Rayxanber I & II. There's even a chameleon boss that would be appropriate in a Mega Man game. Quirky decisions!

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah. I've actually played around with the game on higher difficulty dip switch settings, and I do agree it picks up a bit with boosted difficulty. Just feels a bit onerous to play 20 minutes on defaults (assuming one doesn't crash and burn on the final boss) for things to begin getting started.

It can certainly be charming if taken for its straightforward environmental hazards and typical Gradius-style core bosses. I haven't played as much of Thunder Cross 2, but it did seem slightly better balanced from the few stages I stuck with.

[5pectre]

does all Gradius games prior to Gradius V loop forever?

[Mortificator]

I think Space Manbow's more fun than either Thunder Cross game. It shares some elements with them... someone wrote on the Japanese Wikipedia that Manbow started out as a port of the first Thunder Cross before evolving into its own game, but that claim's uncited. In any event, the bit from Manbow's finale where you take cover from a big death beam behind asteroids was copied by Thunder Cross II.

[copy-paster]

does all Gradius games prior to Gradius V loop forever?

Gradius IV max loop is 99 (as seen on PS2 port) but I don't know if the game would loop again after clear 99 loops.

Salamander 2 reaches the end after clearing loop 2.

[Shepardus]

As much as I like Gradius 1 and the closely-related Parodius games, I just can't get much into (arcade) Gradius II and III. I've only played the first few stages of each so maybe it picks up later, but I don't get the same sense of agile maneuvering and fast-paced shooting that I get from the first Gradius. It might be the two frames of input lag for Gradius II in MAME, but I think there's more to it than that. I haven't played the SFC version of Gradius III and have only played one or two credits of Gradius Gaiden and Gradius IV, so I don't have much comment on those.

[Squire Grooktook]

Having spent extensive time with Gradius II, I like it but I believe it to be a game of peaks and valleys.

On the first loop, stage 1 and 2 are rather bland and dry. Stage 3 is too, unless you make a small accident and then it becomes a nearly unwinnable recovery.

After that however, the game picks up incredibly. The Moai and Earth stages which immediately follow are incredible. Both are among my go-to examples of masterful environmental hazards. There are some further hiccups along the way (some of the boss rush enemies are a bit boring, especially during a recovery), but it becomes much more intense and dodging focused as a whole.

Definitely a game that requires some patience to enjoy IMO.

[Shepardus]

Your comments about stages 1-3 echo my experience with them, down to the difficulty of recovering in stage 3. Gives me more hope for the rest of the game. I've only gotten to stage 4 once or twice but I remember it being more fun than the previous three.

[Perikles]

I personally find the "suspense curve" in Gradius games to be fairly comparable in general. Stage 2 in the original Gradius for example is also fairly straightforward once you have a sense of the topography, and stage 2 in II is a nod to that (down to the manual vertical scrolling). Squire Grooktook indirectly hints at it: stage 1 from loop 2 onwards in Gradius II is absolutely amazing, there are flame dragons everywhere. Its loop 1 incarnation is one of the opportunities to rack up more points (you can trigger more of them depending on your position on the screen and the amount of power-ups you have) which makes it interesting enough for me. III is harder from the get-go than the first two, so I don't mind the ripple laser massacre against the bubbles in stage 2. Although to be fair, I would never feel bored in any classic Gradius game thanks to the music and atmosphere. In fact, this very discussion wants me to start with the II marathon again. Soon!

As for recovery in II's ice cube stage: recovering at the beginning of the stage is fairly easy, for the middle part and the final stretch I would advise to never shoot the large blocks - only the little shards - and to hug the "ceiling" once it appears, you're safe from the blocks here. You'll always get one speed-up by one of the two enemies at the checkpoint (and if you die early during the cube assault you can collect a lot more from all the turrets) which is enough to get past this section. Easier said than done etc., but it's not insurmountable I'd say. Maybe I'll do a video on checkpoint recoveries in II one day, although it's probably a lot of work to edit it together (and not so many people care...).

[Squire Grooktook]

Indeed, I was going to mention that the loop 2 version of stage 1 is almost shockingly different. Twisting hydra hell, helluva lot of pressure there. Wonderful stage the loop 2 version is.