Cheap CRT TV...or XRGB?

[Never_Scurred]

Thinking about copping one of them XRGB units for my Saturn. Been playing it on-and-off with the HDTV I have but since I don't play much, I never really cared to spend much more money for image quality. Now that I am playing my Saturn more, I want to step up my setup, but I don't feel comfortable dropping over $300 for the XRGB if a CRT is more than suitable. A coworker is clearing out his storage unit and has a CRT he wants to sell me on the cheap, but would the XRGB matter more than CRT? I have played my Saturn on a CRT and was fine with the image-how much more of a difference would the XRGB make at $300?

[FinalBaton]

XRGB(+ LCD) and a CRT = 2 very different looks

It's a matter of taste. Some prefer the look of LCD, others that or a CRT

Also to consider is the lag. CRT is lagfree, but XRGB-mini adds 27ms of lag (in addition to the lag of your HDTV. Check online to see what's the lag your HDTV has). If you want to keep the amount of lag as low as possible on your HDTV, get a XRGB-3. Or the OSSC, which you can find info on on this thread : http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52158



My personal preference is CRT


A CRT is more than suitable for 240p games!
It looks great! Of course, try to get a CRT with component inputs (and get an RGB SCART cable for your Saturn + a RGB-to-component transcoder).
If your CRT only has S-video, then this is also good. The colors are not nearly as good as RGB, but the picture is still very crisp. And it will be cheaper to just buy an s-video cable for your console.

[nissling]

I prefer the XRGB-Mini along with a good LCD or OLED display over a CRT, but if you're only going to use it with the Saturn it's indeed a pricey investment. I'm using it along with several consoles and love it all around, but YMMV.

Either way, a CRT can also be a good choice. Since you're based in the US though, I'd say follow FinalBaton's advice regarding the transcoder if you choose a CRT. I'm using RGB all the time and cannot stand S-Video or anything below.

Regarding lag, it's an overrated issue imo. Unless you've got a really crappy TV or monitor it's generally not an issue. The XRGB-Mini is supposed to add 20ms (not 27) of latency but I've never noticed it. On the few TVs I've noticed input lag on the XRGB-Mini didn't make it any worse.

[Einzelherz]

If you have the space and want to keep the expense lower, get the CRT. $15 for the TV (probably overpaying), ~$50 for a CSY clone, and ~$25 for the rgb cable isn't bad. You can likely use the CSY clone on your HDTV as well, though it won't be as crisp as an XRGB, to see if you'd prefer that.

[gray117]

i) If you've got space just pick up the crt - it's cheap. It'll probably serve you fine. If not you can just get rid of it.

ii) If you haven't got space, try a scaler. If the xrgb mini/framemeister seems a bit pricey, check out alternatives you may be able to find cheap (as ever I recommend reading fudoh's excellent gaming orientated write ups):
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
...you might consider waiting for the open source scan converter to take off for example - all the info/links is on fudoh's site

[Xyga]

Buy everything.

[ZellSF]

Personally the only differences that I think are important in LCD vs OLED is input lag vs convenience and screen size. CRTs = perfect input lag. LCDs = sort of cheap 55" screens and no need for separate displays for old and new consoles.

I'm more of a LCD person, though I keep a CRT in storage just in case I really want to be competitive at something.

[FinalBaton]

Regarding lag, it's an overrated issue imo. Unless you've got a really crappy TV or monitor it's generally not an issue. The XRGB-Mini is supposed to add 20ms (not 27) of latency but I've never noticed it. On the few TVs I've noticed input lag on the XRGB-Mini didn't make it any worse.

It depends what he intends to play

I play Street Fighter at a high level, and the XRGB-mini + an HDTV (even a low lag one, like the Sonys with 7ms) simply won't cut it. You have a window of like 3 frames to chain your next move into the previous one in those games.

But some people are more sensitive to lag than others.
And a TV with decent lag + XRGB-mini will still play fine for most games

Still, I think he should check what's the lag on his TV. What if it's like 40ms or something? add the framemeister's to that and now it's starting to get pretty detrimental to the gameplay

[accaris]

If you're the kind of person who easily notices imperfections and dwells on them, then DON'T get a CRT.

One advantage of HDTV + upscaler that people aren't listing is 100% perfect geometry.

I can notice even half a degree of rotation in a CRT image. Slight bowing, corner pincushion distortions, uneven linearity, even a tiny bit of overscan... it's just too much for me. I spent more time trying to get the image perfect (which is impossible) than I did actually playing games. I've gone through an utterly stupid number of TVs from Goodwill. For years I've quested for that perfect picture, and it just never happened. Which is a shame too, because SNES through S-video looks mind-bogglingly good on a Trinitron.

If a 20-inch BVM dropped into my lap I'd consider using it. Otherwise, I'm done with CRTs. I'm willing to put up with input lag (even though it's made Mr. Gimmick unbeatable for me) just to avoid all the headaches of consumer CRT geometry.

[nissling]

To be completely honest, not even a CRT is practically free from input lag due to the after burning phosphor. An LCD monitor with 7ms of latency will, at least on paper, have less lag than a CRT. I don't care as long as I don't notice it, and I personally don't on most sets.

[amaradona]

I am like Xyga...I collect everything: scalers, plasma,lcd and crt.

At the moment, my main gaming room is centered around a BVM D24 but I still play casually with the xrgb-mini on a 55 plasma.

To be honest if I had to choose I would go only with the crt...not because of the PQ or whatever...juste because it is plug and play...I dont have to fiddle with settings and it just works.

The last few years, I spent too much time on the scalers rather than playing and finishing my games.

[FinalBaton]

One advantage of HDTV + upscaler that people aren't listing is 100% perfect geometry.

This is a good point

[FinalBaton]

To be honest if I had to choose I would go only with the crt...not because of the PQ or whatever...juste because it is plug and play...I dont have to fiddle with settings and it just works.

The last few years, I spent too much time on the scalers rather than playing and finishing my games.

This is also a good point

[Never_Scurred]

Thanks for the response, guys
I will mainly be playing my Saturn (Battle Garegga, Syphony of the Night, etc.). I just figured that since these consoles were made for crt tv's, I was wondering what difference would it make skipping the XRGB. My main tv is running the 360, but i'd much rather run my Saturn on a crt. I tried playing Garegga and Guardian Force on my flatscreen, but the picture looked janky as hell. All my other Saturn games look "okay", but I prefer a better or at least more suitable picture quality.

[accaris]

Thanks for the response, guys
I will mainly be playing my Saturn (Battle Garegga, Syphony of the Night, etc.). I just figured that since these consoles were made for crt tv's, I was wondering what difference would it make skipping the XRGB. My main tv is running the 360, but i'd much rather run my Saturn on a crt. I tried playing Garegga and Guardian Force on my flatscreen, but the picture looked janky as hell. All my other Saturn games look "okay", but I prefer a better or at least more suitable picture quality.

The difference between a Saturn through a Framemeister (using an RGB cable) and connecting it directly to your TV via composite will be night and day. The difference will be mindblowing unbelievable.

[tacoguy64]

Thinking about copping one of them XRGB units for my Saturn. Been playing it on-and-off with the HDTV I have but since I don't play much, I never really cared to spend much more money for image quality. Now that I am playing my Saturn more, I want to step up my setup, but I don't feel comfortable dropping over $300 for the XRGB if a CRT is more than suitable. A coworker is clearing out his storage unit and has a CRT he wants to sell me on the cheap, but would the XRGB matter more than CRT? I have played my Saturn on a CRT and was fine with the image-how much more of a difference would the XRGB make at $300?

I like how good of a job the xrgb mini has done but I feel that if I was given the choice, then 10/10 i would go with the crt route. The only way I would ever abandon playing older games on the crt is if I moved to a place with no space.

Don't get me wrong the frameister is a great device for those that dont want to go through the hassle of hunting down crt's. Though you will need to order rgb cables and mod your systems in order to make the best use out of the device. But when you do the frameister gives you a really good picture and is ok when it comes to input lag. There will be some games that might be unplayable but for the most part it shouldn't hinder you much in that department.

[mvsfan]

you cant use a light gun with the framemeister. it has some lag. its expensive.

Crts are free to cheap.

[Edward_Tz]

Thanks for the response, guys
I will mainly be playing my Saturn (Battle Garegga, Syphony of the Night, etc.). I just figured that since these consoles were made for crt tv's, I was wondering what difference would it make skipping the XRGB. My main tv is running the 360, but i'd much rather run my Saturn on a crt. I tried playing Garegga and Guardian Force on my flatscreen, but the picture looked janky as hell. All my other Saturn games look "okay", but I prefer a better or at least more suitable picture quality.

Some Saturn games just don’t look that great to begin with. Like Tomb Raider has moments were it’s tough to read the text regardless if you’re playing on a CRT or HDTV. Using composite and just letting the TV handle it will make it basically impossible to read at times.

Definitely recommend getting a scaler. Can’t really recommend the Framemeister for use with Saturn. Too many games have 480i menus, title screens, or cutscenes. The 240p to 480i transition times is too much.

The biggest advantage to these scalers is you get to play on a massive screen. At least that’s the big pro for me.

[Guspaz]

Thanks for the response, guys
I will mainly be playing my Saturn (Battle Garegga, Syphony of the Night, etc.). I just figured that since these consoles were made for crt tv's, I was wondering what difference would it make skipping the XRGB. My main tv is running the 360, but i'd much rather run my Saturn on a crt. I tried playing Garegga and Guardian Force on my flatscreen, but the picture looked janky as hell. All my other Saturn games look "okay", but I prefer a better or at least more suitable picture quality.

The difference between a Saturn through a Framemeister (using an RGB cable) and connecting it directly to your TV via composite will be night and day. The difference will be mindblowing unbelievable.

The difference in that case is between composite and RGB, not a framemeister or CRT.

I thought the PSX version of Symphony of the Night was considered much better, because the Saturn version suffers from major slowdown problems?

I've not used a Framemeister, but I've played Symphony of the Night (PSX) on my PVM, and I don't want/need that to be any sharper than it is.

[BazookaBen]

CRT all the way. Especially if you're playing stuff like Battle Garegga. The XRGB + your LCD TV will get you at least 4 frames of input lag. CRT, on the other hand, will have zero lag.

So, if your TV has component, get a Saturn RGB cable and a Component>RGB converter like the CSY or 9A60. If it doesn't have component, next step down would be s-video, and all you will need is a Saturn s-video cable.

If your CRT doesn't have at least s-video, as in, it only has composite: trash it. There are hundreds of CRT's on any given Craigslist with s-video and component.

[Guspaz]

For many games and most people, on systems that only support 240p/480i, s-video is good enough. It has the same signal quality for luminance as component video, so that means that S-Video and component video and RGB video should all have identical video quality for grayscale images.

That means that the difference between S-Video and component or RGB all comes down to the resolution/sharpness of the colour signal. In many games, the difference will be minimal or non-existent.

For some of us, that difference is still too much, or we play games where there really is a larger difference. For a typical gamer, s-video on a consumer CRT is going to look damned fine.

Of course, S-Video is limited to 240p/480i, so as soon as a system supports 480p (like on the gamecube) then that's a whole other ball game.

[Ikaruga11]

XRGB Framemeister + LCD/LED/Plasma/OLED
+Clean emulator look (no scanlines, although this can seen as be a negative)
+100% perfect geometry and convergence
+No overscan
- Input lag (20ms from the XRGB, plus however much your TV has. 1 frame = 16.667ms)
- Light Gun games will not work

Depending on the type of HDTV you have, you may see some ghosting and motion blur.

CRTs:
+240p and 480i content are displayed in their native reseolution. No scaling is done.
+Zero input lag
+Zero ghosting or motion blur
+Scanlines for 240p content
+Light Gun games work
-Possible imperfect geometry and convergence. This can corrected by entering the service menu, and even moving magnets on the tube if necessary)
-Possible overscan/underscan issues. This can be be fixed in the service menu.

[austin532]

The XRGB has a ways to go before it can catch up to a CRT. While it may look great for 2D pixel based games, anything in the early 3D polygonal age like Saturn, PS1, and N64 looks bad on a LCD even with a softer picture setting and scanlines enabled which btw you can get very close to the real thing. Overall those games just look better on a CRT.

Plus maybe it's just me but games feel like they run smoother on a CRT as well. Not sure if it's a XRGB thing or limitation of flat screens. It's like framerate is off a little bit.

[Edward_Tz]

The XRGB has a ways to go before it can catch up to a CRT. While it may look great for 2D pixel based games, anything in the early 3D polygonal age like Saturn, PS1, and N64 looks bad on a LCD even with a softer picture setting and scanlines enabled which btw you can get very close to the real thing. Overall those games just look better on a CRT.

Don't think there will be an XRGB that does that. What you want is filters not a scaler.

[BazookaBen]

Plus maybe it's just me but games feel like they run smoother on a CRT as well. Not sure if it's a XRGB thing or limitation of flat screens.

That's probably because flat panels are sample-and-hold, and CRT's are scanning. So motion looks more clear, more realistic.

This website demonstrates it pretty well, try watching it on a CRT vs LCD:

http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

[ApolloBoy]

What about a CRT VGA monitor with an XRGB-2 or 3?

[austin532]

Plus maybe it's just me but games feel like they run smoother on a CRT as well. Not sure if it's a XRGB thing or limitation of flat screens.

That's probably because flat panels are sample-and-hold, and CRT's are scanning. So motion looks more clear, more realistic.

This website demonstrates it pretty well, try watching it on a CRT vs LCD:

http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

Exactly. It feels like the games run at around 57-58 fps vs 60 fps. Or should I say 59.94?

[Guspaz]

Plus maybe it's just me but games feel like they run smoother on a CRT as well. Not sure if it's a XRGB thing or limitation of flat screens.

That's probably because flat panels are sample-and-hold, and CRT's are scanning. So motion looks more clear, more realistic.

This website demonstrates it pretty well, try watching it on a CRT vs LCD:

http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

That has nothing to do with sample-and-hold versus scanning, it has to do with low-persistence versus high-persistence. You can solve the problem by flickering the backlight, which is supported by many gaming monitors.

[Xyga]

That has nothing to do with sample-and-hold versus scanning, it has to do with low-persistence versus high-persistence. You can solve the problem by flickering the backlight, which is supported by many gaming monitors.

Not again.

[Sid]

Can't see that anyone has mentioned the tate/vertical scan lines consideration. As far as I know it's tating or using an OSSC that are the only options for faithful reproduction in that regard - leaving the XRGB option as a non-starter depending on priorities.

With Namco annoyingly using the opposite rotation to the norm, I'm left having 3 PVMs set up to accommodate all applicable orientations. Without the means to do that, I'd opt for an OSSC feeding my plasma (though getting one regardless). There's just too many great games for each orientation that I'd otherwise miss out on (not being willing to rotate a crt willy nilly).