The Real Thing vs. Wii VC 240p

[Windfish]

Some games on the Wii VC can be outputted at their original resolutions. I wondered how they compare to the real thing. I don't have pics, but I compared Super Mario Bros. NES on a RGB-modded NES to its VC counterpart, both upscaled by Framemeister. The latter is noticeably darker, and perhaps a bit fuzzier.

This seems not to be the experience of other Wii users, though:
http://retrorgb.com/wiivsclassic.html

Can anyone else share their observations?

[bobrocks95]

NES games on the Wii Virtual Console are artificially darkened compared to what the colors are supposed to be. From what I've read it was to "emulate the darkening effects of scanlines" which is a load of bull and of course doesn't apply anyway if you're outputting 240p to a CRT.

AFAIK it's just NES games that are modified significantly (aside from flicker effects being removed in some games), hence the discrepancy compared to the SNES and Genesis games on Retro RGB.

[Windfish]

NES games on the Wii Virtual Console are artificially darkened compared to what the colors are supposed to be. From what I've read it was to "emulate the darkening effects of scanlines" which is a load of bull and of course doesn't apply anyway if you're outputting 240p to a CRT.

AFAIK it's just NES games that are modified significantly (aside from flicker effects being removed in some games), hence the discrepancy compared to the SNES and Genesis games on Retro RGB.

Ah, yes, I did remember hearing about the artificial darkening but just assumed that it would be removed in the switch to 240p. Guess not?

Now, I did also do other comparisons: A Link to the Past and Rondo of Blood, both of which look noticeable less vibrant and fuzzier than their real counterparts. This *could* be just me, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Have you done any comparisons?

[Ikaruga11]

NES games on the Wii Virtual Console are artificially darkened compared to what the colors are supposed to be. From what I've read it was to "emulate the darkening effects of scanlines" which is a load of bull and of course doesn't apply anyway if you're outputting 240p to a CRT.

AFAIK it's just NES games that are modified significantly (aside from flicker effects being removed in some games), hence the discrepancy compared to the SNES and Genesis games on Retro RGB.

What about N64 games?

Also, the Virtual Console on the Wii U is A LOT worse. Everything is dark and blurry with input lag. The only redeeming features are Miiverse, handheld play and savestates.

[bobrocks95]

Ah, yes, I did remember hearing about the artificial darkening but just assumed that it would be removed in the switch to 240p. Guess not?

Now, I did also do other comparisons: A Link to the Past and Rondo of Blood, both of which look noticeable less vibrant and fuzzier than their real counterparts. This *could* be just me, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Have you done any comparisons?

I have nowhere near the dosh to own Rondo of Blood, but I could do a quick comparison with LttP (with a non-1chip though). Know that the Wii's component output is a little blurry so that'd be the discrepancy most likely. Using RGB would be the better option if you're just doing 240p. I think with a softmod you can make a US Wii output RGB

What about N64 games?

Also, the Virtual Console on the Wii U is A LOT worse. Everything is dark and blurry with input lag. The only redeeming features are Miiverse, handheld play and savestates.

Not sure on N64 games. My N64 isn't modded anyway so it's certainly an improvement over S-Video.

My experience with the Wii U VC was just through Smash 4 which presumably uses the same emulators. I don't know if being a game inside another makes the input lag worse, but I could barely beat the first level in Super Mario Brothers it was so bad. Not a good first impression at least.

[telemetry]

Not sure that the VC artificial darkening applies to the Wii -- I presume it applies to Wii U, since that is the context I always see it mentioned in videos.

From RetroRGB's site, the 240p output of the Wii seems very close to SNES & Genesis (no obvious darkening here): http://retrorgb.com/wiivsclassic.html

On my Wii VC (black "family" model with no GameCube ports, slightly better video?) I've got Super Mario 1 & 3 (NES) and no artificial darkening here. SNES games (Super Mario World, Diddy's Kong Quest) also look fine -- non-darkened in comparison to emulator anyway (I don't have original NES hardware to compare, but I am familiar with the darkening effect from My Life in Gaming's videos).

What about N64 games?

Not sure on N64 games. My N64 isn't modded anyway so it's certainly an improvement over S-Video.

I've got a few VC N64 games (Mario 64, Star Fox, Smash Bros, Zelda 64, Majora's Mask) and absolutely no artificial darkening at all.

The Wii N64 is not like original hardware -- I don't believe the games ever run at 240p. In my experience they are running at 480i and are already upscaled internally to 640x480 (and other internet research confirms this). EDIT: I have not tried the "force Wii to 240P trick" on N64 games, maybe this would work.

The Wii will run N64 games in 480p as well, and I consider this superior to my original hardware. The increased resolution means the N64's VI horizontal blur is no longer a problem, and makes it much sharper, which I actually enjoy. From a purist perspective this means you're getting 480p 3D graphics, but you're also getting the N64's 240p assets scaled up to 480p. So it makes any 2D elements seem a little blockier compared to original hardware at 240p, kind of like Artemio's 240p suite tests with the "480p scaled/240p" setting.

I still consider it an improvement over the hardware on my TV, since the N64 blurred both 2D and 3D anyway -- so I appreciate the extra sharpness for both. If I added an SLG to mask-out every other line, I'd end up with a great 240p-ish picture with double-sharp horizontal lines (essentially the same goal of the VI de-blur methods).

I rather like it and will be buying a few more N64 games here, so I can get what I feel is a better presentation. I understand the Wii U VC doesn't have all the Wii N64 releases either for some bizarre reason, so I'll get them on Wii while I still can.

[Ikaruga11]

Not sure that the VC artificial darkening applies to the Wii -- I presume it applies to Wii U, since that is the context I always see it mentioned in videos.

From RetroRGB's site, the 240p output of the Wii seems very close to SNES & Genesis (no obvious darkening here): http://retrorgb.com/wiivsclassic.html

On my Wii VC (black "family" model with no GameCube ports, slightly better video?) I've got Super Mario 1 & 3 (NES) and no artificial darkening here. SNES games (Super Mario World, Diddy's Kong Quest) also look fine -- non-darkened in comparison to emulator anyway (I don't have original NES hardware to compare, but I am familiar with the darkening effect from My Life in Gaming's videos).

What about N64 games?

Not sure on N64 games. My N64 isn't modded anyway so it's certainly an improvement over S-Video.

I've got a few VC N64 games (Mario 64, Star Fox, Smash Bros, Zelda 64, Majora's Mask) and absolutely no artificial darkening at all.

The Wii N64 is not like original hardware -- I don't believe the games ever run at 240p. In my experience they are running at 480i and are already upscaled internally to 640x480 (and other internet research confirms this). EDIT: I have not tried the "force Wii to 240P trick" on N64 games, maybe this would work.

The Wii will run N64 games in 480p as well, and I consider this superior to my original hardware. The increased resolution means the N64's VI horizontal blur is no longer a problem, and makes it much sharper, which I actually enjoy. From a purist perspective this means you're getting 480p 3D graphics, but you're also getting the N64's 240p assets scaled up to 480p. So it makes any 2D elements seem a little blockier compared to original hardware at 240p, kind of like Artemio's 240p suite tests with the "480p scaled/240p" setting.

I still consider it an improvement over the hardware on my TV, since the N64 blurred both 2D and 3D anyway -- so I appreciate the extra sharpness for both. If I added an SLG to mask-out every other line, I'd end up with a great 240p-ish picture with double-sharp horizontal lines (essentially the same goal of the VI de-blur methods).

Exactly. Even though the Wii Virtual Console is all emulation, there is no horizontal blur from the N64's anti-aliasing, and all N64 VC games can be rendered in native 480p. Although this can make certain things look TOO sharp, like the text in Paper Mario and pretty much any 2D graphic. I guess developers made those with the N64's system-wide AA in mind. Maybe scanlines from a good BVM will soften the edges of text and 2D graphics.

I rather like it and will be buying a few more N64 games here, so I can get what I feel is a better presentation. I understand the Wii U VC doesn't have all the Wii N64 releases either for some bizarre reason, so I'll get them on Wii while I still can.

Yeah, I have all 21 Nintendo 64 games released for the Wii Virtual Console. There is no darkening at all, and they look MILES better than the Wii U VC versions. N64 games look razor sharp in native 480p with the official Nintendo Component Cables. I have the Red Wii (GCN ports) that was released around December of 2010 for Mario's 25th Anniversary, so I'm pretty sure it has the superior component video of the RV-101 models (no GCN ports) as well.

[Brad251]

I have a Wii with Gamecube ports and there is terrible darkening on the NES games. I played Punchout on Wii virtual console the other day and it looked awful. I normally use Retroarch for Wii for NES emulation. With Retroarch, the image is not darkened for NES games and it looks great. I play on a CRT TV and the only benefit to the Virtual Console is that there is slightly less lag compared to homebrew emulators but I only notice the improvement in lag in games like Punchout where the degree of precision you have to have is extreme. In almost every other NES game, I don't detect any lag when using Retroarch or FCE Ultra GX.

Virtual Console is good for N64 games but for everything else I would just use Retroarch. WiiMednafen is also not bad. The homebrew emulator Wii64 can run some N64 games well but not that many. There is also Not64, which I believe is an improved version of Wii64 so I would use that one. There are compatibility lists online and I would also suggest testing games out yourself to see if you like how they run.

[Brad251]

I forgot to add that Retroarch Wii can do 224p and 240p and it looks just like the original consoles as far as I can tell. Many of the other homebrew emulators can also do 224/240p but Retroarch is nice because you don't have to keep switching between programs. You just have to double the original native horizontal resolution of the system you are emulating in retroarch when using 224/240p. This is because the Wii can't display a horizontal resolution below something like 384 when running in 224/240p. I think Not64 does 240p.

[BONKERS]

No, the darkening of games on the Wii and Wii U VC is because of Nintendo and it usually applies globally to VC releases handled by them. (Where as, if you've seen GBA Wii U games do not afik. The emulation was done by M2 IIRC)

N64 Wii U emulation is great though aside from the darkening. Games render at much higher native resolution. Looking really great.

[Windfish]

So from the replies in this thread so far, it seems that the inferior visual quality is due to the Wii's less-than-stellar component out. Is that correct? Is there anything that can be done to improve it?

[Windfish]

I forgot to add that Retroarch Wii can do 224p and 240p and it looks just like the original consoles as far as I can tell. Many of the other homebrew emulators can also do 224/240p but Retroarch is nice because you don't have to keep switching between programs. You just have to double the original native horizontal resolution of the system you are emulating in retroarch when using 224/240p. This is because the Wii can't display a horizontal resolution below something like 384 when running in 224/240p. I think Not64 does 240p.

This is becoming an attractive option. How does Retroarch handle N64 games compared to the Wii VC, which I think doesn't a decent job with the 64.

[Brad251]

So from the replies in this thread so far, it seems that the inferior visual quality is due to the Wii's less-than-stellar component out. Is that correct? Is there anything that can be done to improve it?

This is not necessarily true. I don't have any consoles on hand to compare to a game running on the Wii Virtual Console or Retroarch so I can't say for sure. This could just be the Wii Virtual Console releases that are fuzzy. The games might look sharper in retroarch. If it is the Wii's component output then I don't think there is much that can be done to improve how fuzzy the games look compared to original consoles. Maybe adjusting the sharpness on your TV would help. I wouldn't get too hung up on this though because retro games still look great in retroarch and other emulators that run 224/240p through component.

Retroarch Wii is an emulator frontend and each emulator in retroarch is called a "core". There is no core for Nintendo 64 so you can't play N64 games in retroarch. The most recent games you can play in retroarch would be Sega CD, CPS2 (Arcade) and GBA.

[Einzelherz]

So from the replies in this thread so far, it seems that the inferior visual quality is due to the Wii's less-than-stellar component out. Is that correct? Is there anything that can be done to improve it?

No, it has little if nothing to do with this. I hate the constant belief that the Wii has a poor component out when we've have side by side comparisons done here and on other sites that show the difference is between non existent and negligible.

[Exidna]

So from the replies in this thread so far, it seems that the inferior visual quality is due to the Wii's less-than-stellar component out. Is that correct? Is there anything that can be done to improve it?

No, it has little if nothing to do with this. I hate the constant belief that the Wii has a poor component out when we've have side by side comparisons done here and on other sites that show the difference is between non existent and negligible.

The only comparison I've seen here showed just how much better the GameCube's output is: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51789

I've never been happy with the image quality from the Wii.

[Einzelherz]

I don't remember the thread but the side by side photos of GCN to Wii in F-zero and something else looked practically identical to me. And iirc, retrorgb had a comparison as well.

I'm going to try to take some photos tonight on my PVM.

[Windfish]

So from the replies in this thread so far, it seems that the inferior visual quality is due to the Wii's less-than-stellar component out. Is that correct? Is there anything that can be done to improve it?

This is not necessarily true. I don't have any consoles on hand to compare to a game running on the Wii Virtual Console or Retroarch so I can't say for sure. This could just be the Wii Virtual Console releases that are fuzzy. The games might look sharper in retroarch. If it is the Wii's component output then I don't think there is much that can be done to improve how fuzzy the games look compared to original consoles. Maybe adjusting the sharpness on your TV would help. I wouldn't get too hung up on this though because retro games still look great in retroarch and other emulators that run 224/240p through component.

Retroarch Wii is an emulator frontend and each emulator in retroarch is called a "core". There is no core for Nintendo 64 so you can't play N64 games in retroarch. The most recent games you can play in retroarch would be Sega CD, CPS2 (Arcade) and GBA.

I have read, though, that Retroarch has noticeable lag, which is very disheartening. What do you think?

[Brad251]

I have a Wii with Gamecube ports and there is terrible darkening on the NES games. I played Punchout on Wii virtual console the other day and it looked awful. I normally use Retroarch for Wii for NES emulation. With Retroarch, the image is not darkened for NES games and it looks great. I play on a CRT TV and the only benefit to the Virtual Console is that there is slightly less lag compared to homebrew emulators but I only notice the improvement in lag in games like Punchout where the degree of precision you have to have is extreme. In almost every other NES game, I don't detect any lag when using Retroarch or FCE Ultra GX.

Virtual Console is good for N64 games but for everything else I would just use Retroarch. WiiMednafen is also not bad. The homebrew emulator Wii64 can run some N64 games well but not that many. There is also Not64, which I believe is an improved version of Wii64 so I would use that one. There are compatibility lists online and I would also suggest testing games out yourself to see if you like how they run.

I have read, though, that Retroarch has noticeable lag, which is very disheartening. What do you think?

I somewhat addressed this in my above comment. I play on a CRT TV where any lag in nearly all games is not noticeable in retroarch. However, if you are playing on an LCD/Plasma, there will be some lag whether you play on Retroarch or Virtual Console. I think the reason is because these are digital TVs and there is digital processing going on that causes some input lag where a SD CRT is an analog device and there is generally no processing of the image going on to introduce input lag. I think the framemeister will help reduce input lag. Maybe someone else can chime in and explain this a little better.

Certain cores in retroarch have more lag than others. For example, the NES core FCEUMM has a little more lag than the Nestopia core and the both have slightly more lag than the Virtual Console releases. The standalone homebrew emulator FCE Ultra GX has about the same amount of lag as the Nestopia core and Wiimednafen. Wiimednafen is another emulator frontend that can be launched in the Homebrew channel. I have not noticed the retroarch cores for SNES, Genesis and Neo-Geo having any more lag than their Virtual Console counterparts. However, most games in retroarch are perfectly playable on an HDTV.

I wouldn't be disheartened by anything. You can still use both the Wii Virtual Console and Retroarch and the other standalone homebrew emulators and test out if one works better for you than another. I would at least softmod a Wii and give it a hot as they are so cheap these days. Then hook the Wii and RGB modded NES up to the framemeister compare the two yourself to see if you notice a difference in lag. I much prefer to use the Wii to play retro games because I don't have a crapload of money to buy RGB modded consoles and games for the consoles. If the Wii doesn't work out you can just sell it and make most of your money back.

[Ikaruga11]

I have a Wii with Gamecube ports and there is terrible darkening on the NES games. I played Punchout on Wii virtual console the other day and it looked awful.

Hmm, that's not good. I heard the reason NES games are darker than the original hardware is because Nintendo wanted to emulate the scanline aesthetic? Or it could just be shoddy emulation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The only Virtual Console games I play are Nintendo 64 and a few SNES. So I've never actually seen how Genesis, NES games, etc. looked on the Wii VC compared to their respective original hardware. The darkening is a lot worse on the Wii U Virtual Console though.

I normally use Retroarch for Wii for NES emulation. With Retroarch, the image is not darkened for NES games and it looks great.

Yeah, but its not official.

I play on a CRT TV and the only benefit to the Virtual Console is that there is slightly less lag compared to homebrew emulators but I only notice the improvement in lag in games like Punchout where the degree of precision you have to have is extreme. In almost every other NES game, I don't detect any lag when using Retroarch or FCE Ultra GX.

How many milliseconds (ms) of lag is there with the Retroarch or FCE Ultra GX?

I somewhat addressed this in my above comment. I play on a CRT TV where any lag in nearly all games is not noticeable in retroarch. However, if you are playing on an LCD/Plasma, there will be some lag whether you play on Retroarch or Virtual Console. I think the reason is because these are digital TVs and there is digital processing going on that causes some input lag where a SD CRT is an analog device and there is generally no processing of the image going on to introduce input lag. I think the framemeister will help reduce input lag. Maybe someone else can chime in and explain this a little better.

There are several things that can cause input lag on an LCD/Plasma. Post-processing effects, which can be disabled by turning on Game Modeif your TV has it and/or manually disabling it in the service menu. Analog-to-digital signal conversion will also create more input lag. Its best to use the Wii U since Wii Mode can use the digital HDMI output, thus no analog-to-digital conversion is done. Upscaling is also another huge culprit. That's where the Framemeister comes in since TV scalers usually very poor. Also LCDs and Plasmas have varying degrees of inherent input lag depending on the make and model that cannot be reduced.

So from the replies in this thread so far, it seems that the inferior visual quality is due to the Wii's less-than-stellar component out. Is that correct? Is there anything that can be done to improve it?

No, it's the emulation.

[Einzelherz]

Well my attempt at taking photos failed dramatically. My best camera, my phone, catches refresh and can't get the color right. I tested my 1chip-01 against the VC version of Link to the Past on my PVM-14L5 and notice no difference. Same goes for FCEgx. I used first party component cables on the Wii and retro console accessories' SNES cable.

[Ikaruga11]

http://retrorgb.com/wiivsclassic.html

A Link to the Past on an unmodded 1CHIP SNES has slightly richer colors, but the difference is minimal.

[bobrocks95]

No, it has little if nothing to do with this. I hate the constant belief that the Wii has a poor component out when we've have side by side comparisons done here and on other sites that show the difference is between non existent and negligible.

It's been proven as worse, but you can decide for yourself whether or not it's a negligible difference.

I think if Gamecube component cables weren't so expensive everybody would just agree to use a Gamecube, but the cost difference makes the Wii a much better option in general.

[Ikaruga11]

I wonder what looks better: Wii using component on a CRT, or Wii Mode (Wii U) using HDMI on an LCD/Plasma upscaled through the Framemeister?

The reason I'm comparing two different displays is because LCDs and Plasmas that do have component inputs generally don't handle component as well since it produces an analog signal and has to be converted to digital for display on LCDs/Plasmas, which are digital displays.

[telemetry]

I wonder what looks better: Wii using component on a CRT, or Wii Mode (Wii U) using HDMI on an LCD/Plasma upscaled through the Framemeister?

Why pump a Wii U through a Framemeister? It already upscales all output to 1080p (including Wii & emulated GameCube/Nintendont output), so it's unclear what the benefit would be (other than extra delay/processing).

The Wii U doesn't increase the internal resolution of Wii (or emulated GameCube) software, it's still rendering at 480p. But the system does the initial 1080p scale so there's no need for an external processor just to get a high-quality HD input.

[bobrocks95]

The Wii U's upscaling adds a slight green push, so there's an argument to be made for having it output in 480p and then upscaling externally.

[Ikaruga11]

I wonder what looks better: Wii using component on a CRT, or Wii Mode (Wii U) using HDMI on an LCD/Plasma upscaled through the Framemeister?

Why pump a Wii U through a Framemeister? It already upscales all output to 1080p (including Wii & emulated GameCube/Nintendont output), so it's unclear what the benefit would be (other than extra delay/processing).

The Wii U doesn't increase the internal resolution of Wii (or emulated GameCube) software, it's still rendering at 480p. But the system does the initial 1080p scale so there's no need for an external processor just to get a high-quality HD input.

Wii U's upscaling sucks. That's why.

[telemetry]

Really! I was worried I was missing out on a superior experience to be honest.

[BONKERS]

I wonder what looks better: Wii using component on a CRT, or Wii Mode (Wii U) using HDMI on an LCD/Plasma upscaled through the Framemeister?

Why pump a Wii U through a Framemeister? It already upscales all output to 1080p (including Wii & emulated GameCube/Nintendont output), so it's unclear what the benefit would be (other than extra delay/processing).

The Wii U doesn't increase the internal resolution of Wii (or emulated GameCube) software, it's still rendering at 480p. But the system does the initial 1080p scale so there's no need for an external processor just to get a high-quality HD input.

Wii U's upscaling sucks. That's why.

I'd say it' far from sucks.

The FM isn't good at 480p, and the Wii U upscales Wii games in 480p just fine.

[Brad251]

I have tested several Wii virtual console games and found that in addition to NES games being much darker than their console versions, the N64 games are much darker as well so N64 VC games being dark is not just a problem with the Wii U. The VC Genesis, SNES and Neo-Geo games I tested did not suffer from a darkened image. They looked exactly like their console counterparts.

[telemetry]

the N64 games are much darker as well so N64 VC games being dark is not just a problem with the Wii U.

I am aware this is partly subjective and dependent on TV configuration (and cabling), but I have played the aforementioned everyday and the N64 differences seem far less distinguishable to me, besides the other advantages of N64 VC titles above.

NES games have some darkening/desaturation (MM3 versus MM9 is a great example of this).