Not sure which CRT TV to get?

[Brad251]

I am in the process of getting a CRT TV to play retro games on and came across a few on Craigslist. They are all flat screen SD CRT TVs. One is a Sharp, one is a Toshiba, one is a Panasonic and one is a Phillips. They all appear to be in good condition. I am basically asking, assuming there are no defects in the picture on these TVs, which brand would you go with?

[Guspaz]

Are there any non-flat options available? Flatscreen TVs tend to have worse geometry due to the distortions introduced by the flat display surface. The beam originates from a single point, so a curved screen is required to have the same beam length at any point on the screen. A flat screen needs to account for the fact that the beam has to travel different distances to different parts of the screen, which makes good geometry and focus a lot harder.

That's not to say that there aren't good flat CRTs, only that they're trickier to find with good geometry.

Also, you'll want to avoid any flatscreen TV that is 100/120Hz, and if you're planning to play retro games, be wary of anything that is EDTV or HDTV, because those will involve internal upscalers and digital processing that can add the same sort of lag that LCD HDTVs do.

[accaris]

For Pansonic and Toshiba, sometimes you can't do much on those without the remote. Toshiba doesn't have enough buttons on the chassis and Pansonic requires its "Action" button to access the service menu (although a suitably advanced universal remote might be able to replicate this.) Both of those have great quality though, I think the Panasonic Tau is actually an aperture grille screen... I had a 20-inch version that would have been perfect if it had horizontal adjustment circuitry (sadly it did not, and I had overscan on both sides of the screen.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Game Sack guys used one of those flat tube Toshiba's for a long time. They probably still do. People swear by them.

I don't know much about Sharp flat tubes, but I do know that many of the old 25" Sharp TVs can act as drop-in replacements for K7000 arcade monitors. They have great picture quality!

[Ikaruga11]

and if you're planning to play retro games, be wary of anything that is EDTV or HDTV, because those will involve internal upscalers and digital processing that can add the same sort of lag that LCD HDTVs do.

Basically, if your game console only does 240p and/or 480i, stick with SD CRTs (i.e. everything before the Dreamcast).

[Brad251]

I found out that the Panasonic TV is actually a curved screen and the model number is CT-27E13G. It was part of the Panasonic E-Series line of TVs and was released in 2003 and has component input. I know in general, Panasonic is good but does anyone have experience with this particular model of TV?

[austin532]

I wouldn't mind getting another CRT. Sony's are the best but they never made a non flat TV with Component. I hear Toshiba's are the next best thing to get. They made several non flat models with Component on the back.

[Ed Oscuro]

You can best answer that yourself by showing up in person and checking it out. Get the seller's consent to hook up a cheap DVD player (if they have one that's even better) and see if the picture looks good (burn a test disc if you can, like Avia, Video Essentials, Spears & Munsil, etc.). That should be enough to give you an idea if it's worth buying. I'd show up with a game console if that's the suggested usage, except that you might not be able to trust the seller not to rob you.

As far as flat TVs go, I understand that some of the really late ones have better geometry. Generally it's not a problem for many 3D consoles if you do have some slight geometry problems (like the infamous picture dip on many Sony KV-27FS120 sets) but it can be obnoxious with 2D games. You might be able to fix it with some magnet strips though.

Of course the "best" options for retro games include an arcade monitor (maybe in an arcade cabinet) or, barring that, a professional monitor with RGBs input. These will be fairly expensive and are getting tougher to track down these days, though.

Sony's are the best but they never made a non flat TV with Component.

Really? If flatscreen geometry is a problem, of course you can always look at their pro monitors which include many gently curved screens with component.

[Einzelherz]

I wouldn't mind getting another CRT. Sony's are the best but they never made a non flat TV with Component.

I, too, would like verification on this. I'd feel less strange picking up one with only AVs if it's true.

[Ikaruga11]

The Sony KV-27FV310 is one of the best consumer-grade SD CRTs for retro gaming.

• 4:3 aspect ratio
• Outputs 240p and 480i
• Has a high voltage regulator to stop white blooming
• 2 S-Video, 2 Component Inputs
• Smallest version of the 310 line for the sharpest and clearest picture quality

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-AX45dCFdMd ... FV310.html

[austin532]

I felt the same way to but after looking at several models, I have yet to find a non flat Sony TV in the US that has Component. The highest I've seen is S-Video.

[FinalBaton]

As far as consumer 480i CRT in North America I would also give my vote to the 27" Sony FV310.

Every geometry aspect on those can be tweaked in the service menu EXCEPT horizontal linearity. (this is also true for the FV300, but those don't have the voltage regulator. But then again, the VR in the 310 reduces blooming of whites by 30% only, so you're not looking at a huge discrepancy in PQ here)
So if you find one near you, go check it out and test it's horizontal linearity with the scrolling test in Artemio's 240p suite. If there's no problem there, then you're in business.

Of course you should'nt rule out other makes and models. There should be other good consumer CRTs out there.

[Einzelherz]

In the small locale where I live, I've never seen the top end sets come up. I've seen a handful of FS130s, FS100s, etc. There's a 36FS210 available currently, and I'm sure it would be GLORIOUS, but guh, 36 inches.

[FinalBaton]

I've had lots of fun with my FV300
but it was a bitch to move, lol. Thankfully I live on the ground floor

Also a smaller version of a model will be a bit sharper than it's bigger version, obviously

[austin532]

Everyone swears that the FV310 is "THE" best 480i tv to get but they are tough to find as they were really expensive new

[FinalBaton]

Everyone swears that the FV310 is "THE" best 480i tv to get but they are tough to find as they were really expensive new

Hmmm I see them quite often here. Seems that people here just now got around to getting them out of their man cave.

Maybe in California people made that move a couple of years prior, who knows

[Brad251]

I actually came across a 27" Sony FV310 last year at my local Salvation Army for $40 and almost picked it up but didn't because the back of the TV was very dusty and the front of the TV case looked dirty; as if it were owned by a smoker. I didn't know I was passing up one of the best possible sets I could find. If one comes up again I will be all over that.

[Ikaruga11]

I've looked on Craigslist and eBay in search of the 310 and haven't been able to find one.

I used to play my Wii on a KV-27FS120 for a few years, which is very similar to the KV-27FV310, but without the High Voltage Regulator and less component inputs. Even though I was still playing in 480i, the jump from composite to component was massive. Less color bleeding, better colors, sharper picture quality.

However, I wanted to bring the maximum graphical potential out of my Wii with 480p. And I wanted to play widescreen Wii games such as Skyward Sword without the letterboxing effect. So I searched the internet trying to find ED CRTs that did 480p, 240p and 480i. Unfortunately, I could not find ANYTHING. EDTVs were extremely rare in North America and the only ones that existed seemed to be either LCD or Plasma, both of which were in their infancy and suffered from horrible black levels, ghosting and burn-in. At this time I was never aware of PVM/BVM CRTs. So I started looking for HD CRTs that could do 480p. In retrospect, I now understand why 480p EDTVs were nearly non-existent. Because 480p runs at 31.5KHz and 1080i runs at 33.7KHz, it was a no-brainer for TV manufacturers to make the jump to 1080i.

Anyway, I read on AVS Forums, Shoryuken Forums and many other places that the KD-34XBR960 was the best CRT ever made. The holy grail of CRTs. It also has a High Voltage Regular, 2 Component inputs, several S-Video inputs and even an HDMI input! Relatively new to the videophile and dedicated retro gaming community at the time, I bought into the hype and began looking for one. I scoured eBay and my local Craigslist for several years trying to find one. Unfortunately, I would either find the inferior 970, which lacked the Super Fine Pitch aperture grille, or I would find a 960 across the country for several hundred dollars with local pickup only.

Last November I saw a listing on Craigslist of someone selling the XBR960 for $75 about 40 minutes away. Needless to say, I immediately sniped that ad and bought it that week. It was pretty heavy, weighing over 150 lbs. and having huge dimensions made it a challenge for my uncle and I to lift up upstairs to my room.

The TV was not well taken care of though. It was very dusty and dirty on the outside, and had what appeared to be melted rubber from a wire stuck on top. Worse, the anti-glare film on the screen used to minimize reflections was badly damaged from the previous owner using chemical cleaners, and had visible rainbow streaks when the television was on. Having no other choice, I took the 960 apart so I could peel off the anti-glare film. I cleaned the inside while it was open, which was very dusty inside. I grabbed the edge of the AG film on the tube and began peeling the sheet away. It took about 30 minutes of careful peeling to get it completely off. It came off in one giant plastic sheet. A very yellow, scratched and foggy sheet. I couldn't believe how damaged the ag film was. Luckily, the glass underneath appeared to be in pristine condition. After cleaning it with distilled water and a microfiber cloth to remove the glue residue, it basically looked brand new. After putting everything back together and cleaning the outside vigorously, my XBR960 basically looked brand new fresh out of the box.

So I finally began playing my Wii on it in glorious 480p, but I was severely underwhelmed. The image was overly dark and blurry, and there were major geometry issues at the corners of the screen. So I contacted a professional THX/ISF certified calibrator by the name of Chad B. on AVS Forums after hearing great reviews and universal acclaim about him. He's even worked on XBR960s in the past and is from my state! So I scheduled an appointment back in March.

It took about six hours for the complete calibration, and it was totally worth it. Chad was able to get the geometry nearly perfect by moving the magnets around on the tube, calibrated the convergence, perfected the color accuracy, eliminate overscan completely, fine-tune the brightness, contrast and alignment of the image. I tried Super Smash Bros. on the Wii Virtual Console, which is capable of rendering in native 480p like all N64 VC games. It looked ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. It was crystal-clear and very sharp. It was like playing in native 1080p on an emulator. Been happy ever since then.

However, I was still not satisfied with getting the perfect picture. So I kept researching and eventually stumbled upon this website where I learned the existence of PVMs/BVMs, the absolute highest quality CRTs ever made used for professional studio reference, movie production, hospitals, security, etc. Multiscan CRT monitors which could display multipl native resolutions from 240p to 1080i. So after watching videos on YouTube of My Life in Gaming and phonedork, I am looking to find a BVM, specifically the Sony BVM-D24E1WU.

tl;dr I started out with a 4:3 SD CRT, upgraded to a 16:9 HD CRT and am now looking for a high end BVM.

[FinalBaton]

Yes there are apparently other Trinitron FD tubes that come fairly close to the FV300/310, but I personnally don't know wich ones are closer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA

[Brad251]

I used to play my Wii on a KV-27FS120 for a few years, which is very similar to the KV-27FV310, but without the High Voltage Regulator and less component inputs

That is interesting. I have a KV-24FS100 that I picked up recently but am getting rid of it because it does a very poor job of displaying dark parts of the picture. For example, the grey checkered pattern in the retroarch menu is barely visible and there is very poor detail in the night levels in Donkey Kong Country. Normally, this TV would have no problem displaying dark parts of the picture but I think that something in the TV is going and affecting this aspect of the TV. I have tried fixing this in the service menu and adjusting the screen knob but no luck. Otherwise, I think the picture looks fantastic where there isn't any black/grey being used and I love how sharp the image is.

[Taiyaki]

For what it's worth a flat screen can absolutely reach the same level of geometry as a curved screen, it just requires internal work to get there (you just won't get there with the service menu alone). With curved screens you will have different problems, they tend to have less vibrant colors and the shadow mask technology shows age with one or two guns wearing out giving a rather dull image (generally greenish or redish). Curved also never quite reach the natural sharpness or flat in my experience. The benefits tend to be more perfect corner and edge focus and as mentioned above the geometry gets less out of shape (although in most you will most likely still need to tweak geometry).


Then there's also one's preference to take into account. Some people always lived with curved crt's so for them they feel no love for the flat screens. I upgraded to flat when it was just coming around and used those for at least 7~8 years before moving over to LCD's. To me flat screens either the Sony Trinitron line, Panasonic Tau line or the flat Toshiba's which all use aperture grille technology are the best looking crt's in existence bar none (even better than the higher pixel count pvm's and bvm's to my eyes).


Among the Sony's the two models that are generally the most recommended are the FV300 and FV310. If you're having a hard time finding an FV310, the FV300 has almost the same features with the main difference being the high voltage regulator found on the FV310. I'd argue the FV300 also looks better as it's all silver instead of silver with a blue bezel around the screen. Either way these are really phenomenal tv's and if you can find one I'm quite sure you will love them.

[Taiyaki]

I used to play my Wii on a KV-27FS120 for a few years, which is very similar to the KV-27FV310, but without the High Voltage Regulator and less component inputs.

Don't mean to be a picture snob but I've had an FS120 too and I can guarantee they don't compare. Color vibrancy is much improved in the higher end FV line. Also out of the box geometry is better, although as with mostly all crt's there will be anomalies (many can almost definitely be improved if you can work on the tube though).

I've seen some people go nuts on the insides of their FS line Trinitron and get out of it a picture that looks real close to an FV line set, but on these videos it's hard to tell how the color reproduction was on the end result. Still these are great sets too I would argue.

I have a KV-24FS100 that I picked up recently but am getting rid of it because it does a very poor job of displaying dark parts of the picture. For example, the grey checkered pattern in the retroarch menu is barely visible and there is very poor detail in the night levels in Donkey Kong Country. Normally, this TV would have no problem displaying dark parts of the picture but I think that something in the TV is going and affecting this aspect of the TV. I have tried fixing this in the service menu and adjusting the screen knob but no luck. Otherwise, I think the picture looks fantastic where there isn't any black/grey being used and I love how sharp the image is.

Are you sure it's not a brightness (contrast) problem? Some of the flat Sony Trinitron's shipped with very low default brightness (contrast on modern sets). These sets require pushing the brightness in the service menu to return it to normal levels. The screen knob would be actual brightness (sometimes it used to called contrast). I often hear it's not a good idea to push that setting as it can reduce the life of the tube if pushed too high for prolonged use. It also won't really help you with the dark parts becoming more visible.

[austin532]

Both the FV310 and the FV300 are tough to find. What would you say is the next best choice after that?

[FinalBaton]

Yep. Pushing the sub-brightness value in the service menu and lowering the brightness value in the regular menu is the way to go with these sets.

[Ikaruga11]

I used to play my Wii on a KV-27FS120 for a few years, which is very similar to the KV-27FV310, but without the High Voltage Regulator and less component inputs.

Don't mean to be a picture snob but I've had an FS120 too and I can guarantee they don't compare. Color vibrancy is much improved in the higher end FV line. Also out of the box geometry is better, although as with mostly all crt's there will be anomalies (many can almost definitely be improved if you can work on the tube though).

True. The 310 also has a 10-bit 3D digital comb filter for superior grayscale, while I'm assuming the 120 uses a 6-bit or 8-bit 3D digital comb filter (amount of bits is not advertised). And deeper blacks and more accurate colors as well.

[atheistgod1999]

Get the Toshiba or the Sharp.

[Brad251]

Are you sure it's not a brightness (contrast) problem? Some of the flat Sony Trinitron's shipped with very low default brightness (contrast on modern sets). These sets require pushing the brightness in the service menu to return it to normal levels. The screen knob would be actual brightness (sometimes it used to called contrast). I often hear it's not a good idea to push that setting as it can reduce the life of the tube if pushed too high for prolonged use. It also won't really help you with the dark parts becoming more visible.

I don't think it is a brightness problem. I did adjust the sub-picture brightness level (SBRT) in the service menu and it didn't seem to help. When I increased this value it made the picture look washed out; even after adjusting the contrast/brightness in the regular menu. However, I will try this again and see if I have better results. I had also tested every single other option in the service menu and nothing helped. I went through each option increasing or decreasing the value and if it didn't help I returned the option to its original value.

[bobrocks95]

Yep. Pushing the sub-brightness value in the service menu and lowering the brightness value in the regular menu is the way to go with these sets.

How is sub-brightness different than the menu brightness setting? My assumption was sub-brightness was kind of the baseline for the regular menu setting. Brightness is black level on a CRT, isn't it?

[FinalBaton]

Yep. Pushing the sub-brightness value in the service menu and lowering the brightness value in the regular menu is the way to go with these sets.

How is sub-brightness different than the menu brightness setting? My assumption was sub-brightness was kind of the baseline for the regular menu setting. Brightness is black level on a CRT, isn't it?

I can't give you a scientific answer, sadly.

All I know is there's a big difference betwen 1- having the sub-brightness cranked up & the brightness low, and 2-having the sub-brightness medium to low & the brightness past the mid-point.

It's like the gamma curve is handled completely differently or something(or maybe it's something else, maybe it gives a better contrast; brightening the lighter colors only, without brightening everything. IDK, the cells just look more vibrant that way). On my FV300 the approach number 1 gives clearly better results, AINEC. the 2nd approach looks washed out in comparison. Not that it looks bad, but the 1st approach looks so much better.


Here's some pics from my set, using approach #1. Obviously the colors are off since I'm using S-video, but you can see that it's really vibrant :

[atheistgod1999]

a curved screen is required to have the same beam length at any point on the screen. A flat screen needs to account for the fact that the beam has to travel different distances to different parts of the screen

No, even a curved screen doesn't have the same beam length across the screen; if that were the case, it would be perfectly spherical. Flat screens just have to compensate more.

[lolifoxgirl]

If you get a later sd wega, you potentially can mod it for scart support.