Bomb, essitial part of the shmups formula? How to Employ?

[SAM]

The concept of Bomb have been introduse into very early shmup games and keep appearing in even the most recent shmups.

In my esitimation, 1 out of 2 shumps got bomb. So it is a commonly seen feature in shumps, just like power up, weapon, extend, rank, etc.

The way to employ bomb in games is usually heavily infuience by how the game developers want the players to use it. It's employment can roughly clissify into 3 catergoarys.

Case 1 - Life Saving
Geting you out of trouble, this kind of bomb need to have a very short activation time

Case 2 - Offencive Weapon
Bomb that got a long activation time or won't cancel bullets at all. Bomb that you have to plan to use before head.

Case 3 - Get Bonus Points
Use to distory certain object and get medals. Or just keeping them in bomb bay and award points after stage clearance.


Our discuession would mainly focus on Cat 1 & 2. I have been watching Sonic Wing's Demo Play DVD, included in the recently release PS2 version.

The Demo play use bomb officely on every boss, the combine effect of the bomb and the point blank fire kill the bosses so quickly that they does not have the chance fire much of their bullet patterns.

After watching this demo, I said this is not a demo play should look like, it should show me how to get through those bullet patterns; but my sister said that is a way to utilize the resource you got and 1cc the game.

In my own opinion, a shmups should be able to 1cc w/o using bomb, i.e. every stages should have a way to get pass w/o bombing. A well played game should bomb as few times as possible. Any comment on this thinking?

I begin to wonder, if I restrain myself from pressing the bomb button, would I be improve faster on that game?

There is an issue of me, that I tends to restraining myself from using bombs and thus very often pressing the bomb buttons a sec to late. This lead to many deaths when I play in the Acrade Center. Should I change my playing style?

[cigsthecat]

Well if your current play style is repeatedly unsuccessful- yes, you should make some changes.

I would also think that far more than 50% of shooters have bombs.

[D]

Well, god damn it. How is Sonic Wings for the PS2 then?
TATE? details?

So you get 1 game dvd
1 audio cd
and a demo play dvd for 28 bucks then?
Huh?

Please more details.
Topic could've also read: I've got Sonic Wings for the PS2.

Elaborate please

[system11]

They're there to be used, your sister is right - just a tool to do the job with. What you do with them is your choice, I would have no issue seeing someone use one in a superplay to avoid a heavy bullet storm - that's intelligent play if they ran the risk of being killed otherwise. In Raiden 3, I always use a bomb on boss 2 to get rid of his 4x sweeping shot stream attack. It's a really tough one to dodge for me. On boss 3 I make sure I have one for his final section - I can destroy the first two sections without one, but the third has an absolutely vicious spread sometimes. If I didn't use them, I would probably have two less lives to go into level 4 with.

[neorichieb1971]

I use a bomb when my eyes can't take the strain.

I can handle short bursts of heavy bombardment, but after 10 or so seconds I just see a blur of moving objects, which is my bomb time.

If im getting close to my high score and under attack, I bomb to see if I can nudge up the high score.


Talking of DVD plays or whatever, I think demo loops that present the games before you press start are so decieving. Its like every 5 seconds the ships are throwing bombs all over the place, you only get 3 usually. Its not like you can actually play the game like that in real life.

Strikers 1945 plus is one culprit. I used to watch that demo loop whilst fixing up my cab and I swear about 10 bombs go off in the demo loop on one stage alone

[howmuchkeefe]

Since I usually only play games until I unlock all of their secrets or 1cc them, I use bombs to save my bacon. I'm more likely to beat one of my own high scores than I am to beat that of a superior player, so I don't have any reason not to use bombs and extend my run.

At any rate, doesn't additional experience come hand in hand with the run extension? You get to experience the more advanced patterns sooner (and probably more often) than you would have if you hadn't bombed (or credit fed).

experience > prejudice

[Crunch]

Cave games have made me feel guilty when I bomb in any game now.

[cigsthecat]

your sister is right - just a tool to do the job with.

I thought this was a family site.

And check out the attitude on D!

[Ghegs]

Topic could've also read: I've got Sonic Wings for the PS2.

Elaborate please

Uh, no. The thread isn't about Sonic Wings, it's about bombing. Sonic Wings (and the other Oretachi releases) have already been discussed here. Impressions inside.

[superhitachi4]

Bombs are there to use, so use them. The game creators put them in there for a reason. Sometimes I just use them to save myself like 5 minutes of pea shooting a boss to death. Just quicker that way. Then again, much of the time I don't.

[SuperPang]

I forget about the bombs and see if I can dodge my way through the bits I would use them at. After a good bit of play you can pick out where you really need to use them to survive that bit further overall. 90% of the time it's on a boss

[sven666]

APbatrider is the best bomb-useage game i can think of.

bakraid is too much and cave games is not enough.

bombs (if available) are a part of the arsenal and are meant to be used imo.

[shiftace]

Bombing to survive just strikes me as cheap and not fun. It's like you get to pick 9, 15, or however many hard spots and remove them from the game. Maybe that's how the designers want people to play, but I don't want to play that way, and I'm ok with sucking as a consequence. I'm more open to bombing if there's an unambiguous score advantage to doing it.

[professor ganson]

Along the lines of Cigs comment, way more than 50% of shmups have bombs. And for my part I find it somewhat annoying when I don't have defensive bombs. I like to be able to make a few mistakes without losing a ship and having to start all over. And, to follow up bloodflowers point concerning Raiden III, if you're anything like me, then there are just going to be certain bullet patterns from bosses that you have, say, 33% chance of getting through. When my odds are that low, I like to use a bomb and move on.

[umi]

I don't use 'em... they lessen the game (for me).

[Ramus]

Drop those little bastards. It sucks when you die and you had a bunch of bombs that you were too worried about using, but now they are all gone. Drop them while you have them, but save one for the parts that are tricky for you.

[BulletMagnet]

bombs (if available) are a part of the arsenal and are meant to be used imo.

I'm more of the opinion that in a well-made shmup a player should, theoretically at least, be able to get through every single part of the game without ever having to bomb. Of course, this would require pretty much perfect play, so I see bombs as a provision for the legions among us who are less than perfect, and need a way to get out of a jam and get back on track from time to time, and as time goes on and our "basic skills" are improved, we won't need to use bombs as often as we used to. Some type of "bomb bonus" is a nice addition too, imo, since it encourages players to improve their score at least partly by not needing to bomb. That's just me though, I don't mind if others think differently.

[Kiken]

Along the lines of Cigs comment, way more than 50% of shmups have bombs. And for my part I find it somewhat annoying when I don't have defensive bombs. I like to be able to make a few mistakes without losing a ship and having to start all over. And, to follow up bloodflowers point concerning Raiden III, if you're anything like me, then there are just going to be certain bullet patterns from bosses that you have, say, 33% chance of getting through. When my odds are that low, I like to use a bomb and move on.

Given that Raiden III's score system is based around a "High Tempo" system, then it would be legitimate to call the bombs Offensive Weapons, as they can help you destroy enemies in as little time as possible (especially bosses).

Bombs are like any other attribute of a game, they are put in for a reason, however, the reasons for their use will inevitably change from game to game.

[zaphod]

I agree that a game should never throw a situation where it is IMPOSSIBLE to survive without using one of your bombs.

That said, some games throw bullet patterns that can become undodgeable if you don't bullet herd properly. In some games you can get pinned into a corner by poor play and be stuck having to bomb to get back out. but in such cases, there was always a way to avoid being corenered without bombing. this is almos tNEVER an isue in games with small hitboxes, but it can happen in games with ship-sized ones.

[professor ganson]

Given that Raiden III's score system is based around a "High Tempo" system, then it would be legitimate to call the bombs Offensive Weapons, as they can help you destroy enemies in as little time as possible (especially bosses).

Yeah, that's a good point. For me, the best way to increase my score in Raiden III is to stay alive, even if that means keeping my rank low (and thereby not killing enemies as quickly) and using my bombs defensively (rather than to rack up quick kills). But I think ideally one would use bombs for offensive purposes in this one.

Here's a somewhat lame question, but I ask it anyway:
Do you wish Gradius games had bullet-clearing bombs? Of course, other adjustments would have to be made for balance, but I suppose the question makes sense.

[BulletMagnet]

Here's a somewhat lame question, but I ask it anyway: Do you wish Gradius games had bullet-clearing bombs?

Well, it sort of does (in some games) since you can edit a "mega crush" instead of a force field or shield into the "?" slot (not to mention the blue icons you can collect), but it's not quite the same thing. The Parodius games added sort of a new dimension to that with the bells, most notably the blue ones (and the green ones, too, sort of); in most of the games the "missile" button and the "bell" button are set to the same button, limiting your options; in "Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius," however, the game allows you to set the bell button separately, more or less giving you the option to store a couple of "bomb-ish" bells and use 'em at will without sacrificing your missiles.

[Andi]

Where do I use bombs?

Neon Light Illusion.

[Turrican]

I am not used to smart bombs: I also tend to die before using them, which is quite stupid, I know.

I think I'm not suited to smart bombs mentality because I come from horizontal school, and there smartbombs are rarer.

Also, I guess that's the same problem I tend to have with charge shots / beams. Although some of the more slow paced, strategic games like R-Type do a great job of teaching you where to use it.

[SAM]

I forget about the bombs and see if I can dodge my way through the bits I would use them at. After a good bit of play you can pick out where you really need to use them to survive that bit further overall. 90% of the time it's on a boss

Playing more of the same game did helps in judging whether I really need to bomb to get through. I found myself bomb more frequently in game I am more familar with.

By the way, any of you really got a bombing plan (Predecided places to bomb, allocating how to use all the bomb you would got right from the begining of the game)?

[cigsthecat]

BernD does that, and with great success.

I take note of situations where I frequently screw up and try to keep that in mind. My bomb strategy really depends on what kind of bonuses the game offers for holding them. Also depends on whether I'm playing for the long run or not. Then I'll work on the tough spots and try to learn to dodge.

[Nemo]

The Demo play use bomb officely on every boss, the combine effect of the bomb and the point blank fire kill the bosses so quickly that they does not have the chance fire much of their bullet patterns.

After watching this demo, I said this is not a demo play should look like, it should show me how to get through those bullet patterns; but my sister said that is a way to utilize the resource you got and 1cc the game.

In my own opinion, a shmups should be able to 1cc w/o using bomb, i.e. every stages should have a way to get pass w/o bombing. A well played game should bomb as few times as possible. Any comment on this thinking?

You're right, but it's not that the player needs to bomb, it's a replay vid so he is showing you and the other plays the easiest way to proceed through the game. That's why you shouldn't watch replays, though if you were watching a professional one for a score-based game the replay would center around score rather than simply survival.

[Venom]

By the way, any of you really got a bombing plan (Predecided places to bomb, allocating how to use all the bomb you would got right from the begining of the game)?

Yup. It was part of how I played, map out the game, see where bombs are needed, which can be eliminated with practice. Games where you can't hold many bombs I just use them, unless the bonus is large for going over stock. Had one for Strikers 2 right to the end of the 2nd loop, never had the consistency to pull it off though.

[FraGMarE]

I always have, and always will stand by this rule of thumb:

If a shmup awards you bonus points in any way, shape, or form for NOT bombing (either during or after the game), then I simply try to play the game as if there were no bomb button. This would apply to games like Darius Gaiden and DoDonPachi.

If a shmup awards you no bonus for bomb stock, I bomb it up to my hearts content where I feel it is appropriate (bosses, particularly difficult mid-bosses, bullet hell, etc.) This would apply to games like Blazing Lazers.

[Dave_K.]

I always have, and always will stand by this rule of thumb

Lets not get into the I'm to macho to bomb argument of DDP and the like...its already been discussed to death in the "How do you practice" thread here:

http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5536

[Samudra]

If the game provides you with bombs then using those bombs is legit, of course.

It is a mere personal choice to use them to avoid certain patterns and end up less skilled than a player who dodges everything without bombs.
Excepting games in which bombing is absolutely necessary in some cases (do those even exist?)

As FraGMarE said when points are involved the whole picture changes. One might use less bombs eventhough it significantly increases difficulty.