DSi XL a good choice?

[bobrocks95]

Nintendo seems to be shutting down the DSi store soon so I want to get one. DS games are a little small for my tastes even on a 3DS XL, and of course if you let them upscale they look like a blurry mess.

So I was going to get a DSi XL and just go as big as possible. I don't care much about ppi, so a perceived reduction in sharpness isn't an issue for me.

Wanted to know if there's anything else to look out for though. Does it have a good D-Pad and buttons? 3DS XL to New 3DS XL was a decent downgrade in the D-Pad, is there something similar with the DSi XL?

[Guspaz]

No point. List of game platforms directly supported:

DS: GBA, DS
DSi: DS, DSi
3DS: DS, DSi, 3DS
N3DS: DS, DSi, 3DS, N3DS

If you just want to play DSi stuff, get a 3DS or N3DS. If you want to play GBA stuff, get a DS.

EDIT: Looking closer, I see that you want a bigger image. Both screens are 4.2" (bottom), so the 3DS XL displays DS/DSi games at 80% the size. Is that a big enough difference to buy a whole new handheld?

[bobrocks95]

No point. List of game platforms directly supported:

DS: GBA, DS
DSi: DS, DSi
3DS: DS, DSi, 3DS
N3DS: DS, DSi, 3DS, N3DS

If you just want to play DSi stuff, get a 3DS or N3DS. If you want to play GBA stuff, get a DS.

It's not a question of if it's worth buying a new console, it's more a question of "Is the DSi the best option for DS games?" I don't care about platforms supported, and a DSi XL is maybe $60 at this point. See below for why I don't think the 3DS is the best choice.

EDIT: Looking closer, I see that you want a bigger image. Both screens are 4.2" (bottom), so the 3DS XL displays DS/DSi games at 80% the size. Is that a big enough difference to buy a whole new handheld?

That's if you don't hold start to keep the original resolution. It frankly looks disguisting if you scale it, the 3DS isn't anywhere near high-res enough to make a bilinear filtering look good. I guess I'll measure it when I'm home to prove a point, but it's much smaller than 80% the size.

[Guspaz]

EDIT: Looking closer, I see that you want a bigger image. Both screens are 4.2" (bottom), so the 3DS XL displays DS/DSi games at 80% the size. Is that a big enough difference to buy a whole new handheld?

That's if you don't hold start to keep the original resolution. It frankly looks disguisting if you scale it, the 3DS isn't anywhere near high-res enough to make a bilinear filtering look good. I guess I'll measure it when I'm home to prove a point, but it's much smaller than 80% the size.

No, the DSi XL and 3DS XL screens are the same size, 4.2" on the bottom (top is a different aspect ratio but should be the same height). So the 80% is if you do the pixel-perfect thing, it'd be 100% with the scaling...

The scaling does look terrible, though. For gameboy games (via virtual console) too.

EDIT: 3DS bottom screen is 320x240, while DS is 256x192. 192 / 240 = 0.8

[ZellSF]

DSi XL is definitely best way to play DS games. No problems with dpad, buttons or triggers. Decent quality screen by Nintendo standards.

And while a 20% difference sounds small, it is a lot on these small screens.

Not only that, but the dpad is way more ergonomically placed on the DSi XL than on the 3DS XL. Color reproduction is also better on the DSi XL than the 3DS XL, can't say anything about the New 3DS XL.

[Kyle]

DSi XL is definitely best way to play DS games.

Seconded. I bought two of these when they were clearing them out. Wife and I both love them. Large/bright screen and no 3DS scaling. They're also a nice upgrade from the DS Lite.

[bobrocks95]

No, the DSi XL and 3DS XL screens are the same size, 4.2" on the bottom (top is a different aspect ratio but should be the same height). So the 80% is if you do the pixel-perfect thing, it'd be 100% with the scaling...

The scaling does look terrible, though. For gameboy games (via virtual console) too.

EDIT: 3DS bottom screen is 320x240, while DS is 256x192. 192 / 240 = 0.8

I was doing the calculation based on the top screen size, my bad. Either way it gives the impression of being very small, and like I mentioned off-handedly, the New 3DS XL has a pretty bad D-Pad by Nintendo handheld standards. Again, it's only like $60 for a DSi XL in good shape- people on here have spent WAY more for WAY less of an upgrade (visual or otherwise) plenty of times, but half the time nobody bats an eyelash there.

DSi XL is definitely best way to play DS games. No problems with dpad, buttons or triggers. Decent quality screen by Nintendo standards.

And while a 20% difference sounds small, it is a lot on these small screens.

Not only that, but the dpad is way more ergonomically placed on the DSi XL than on the 3DS XL. Color reproduction is also better on the DSi XL than the 3DS XL, can't say anything about the New 3DS XL.

DSi XL is definitely best way to play DS games.

Seconded. I bought two of these when they were clearing them out. Wife and I both love them. Large/bright screen and no 3DS scaling. They're also a nice upgrade from the DS Lite.

More the kind of responses I was looking for, thanks! As for the New 3DS XL screen, it's probably better if you lucked out and got an IPS top screen, but then there's the potential for an odd mismatch between it and the TN bottom screen. I think they made a really poor choice there overall. Anyway mainly wanted to know how the buttons were or if there was some nagging complaint people had about them, so glad to hear not.

[BazookaBen]

Where did you hear the DS store is closing? If that's true, I need to load up my DSiXL before that happens.

My only complaint about the DSiXL is the d-pad. It's really stiff, and hard to hit diagonals consistently. So playing Contra 4 is harder than it should be. Not sure the lite is any better though.

[bobrocks95]

Where did you hear the DS store is closing? If that's true, I need to load up my DSiXL before that happens.

My only complaint about the DSiXL is the d-pad. It's really stiff, and hard to hit diagonals consistently. So playing Contra 4 is harder than it should be. Not sure the lite is any better though.

The Japanese store was just announced as being shut down, so the assumption is US and Europe will follow suit soon. Nothing confirmed, but worth preparing for imo.

[BazookaBen]

The Japanese store was just announced as being shut down, so the assumption is US and Europe will follow suit soon. Nothing confirmed, but worth preparing for imo.

Man, that really stinks. I hope this isn't happening to the Wii Shop. So many quality (and 240p compatible) VC titles.

Are there any good DSi games I should pick up before this happens? I know nothing about what's good in the DSi Shop.

[bobrocks95]

The Japanese store was just announced as being shut down, so the assumption is US and Europe will follow suit soon. Nothing confirmed, but worth preparing for imo.

Man, that really stinks. I hope this isn't happening to the Wii Shop. So many quality (and 240p compatible) VC titles.

Are there any good DSi games I should pick up before this happens? I know nothing about what's good in the DSi Shop.

Some WayForward titles stayed on the DSi I believe, there's probably a Mario Vs. Donkey Kong Minis game on there, A Kappa's Trail from BrownieBrown who worked on Mother 3, and a few more notable ones I can't remember off the top of my head. That's a decent start at least

[ZellSF]

Where did you hear the DS store is closing? If that's true, I need to load up my DSiXL before that happens.

My only complaint about the DSiXL is the d-pad. It's really stiff, and hard to hit diagonals consistently. So playing Contra 4 is harder than it should be. Not sure the lite is any better though.

I have no problems with diagonals on my DSi XL.

I actually returned my DS Lite to where I bought it from because diagonals were not possible to perform consistently. Obviously a QA issue (and not the only QA issue with the DS Lite...), but you risk running into the same thing.

New 3DS XL has a pretty bad D-Pad by Nintendo handheld standards.

The DSi XL isn't much better. But if you want to play DS games with a good dpad I feel your only option is the original DS. Then you'll just have to say goodbye to image quality.

The original DS is also the only DS system with good triggers.

[Einzelherz]

DSi XL is the best way to play DS and with a DStwo also the best way to play emulated GBA games. GBA games look very lovely on the big screen.

[bobrocks95]

New 3DS XL has a pretty bad D-Pad by Nintendo handheld standards.

The DSi XL isn't much better. But if you want to play DS games with a good dpad I feel your only option is the original DS. Then you'll just have to say goodbye to image quality.

The original DS is also the only DS system with good triggers.

Well the New 3DS XL's D-Pad is worse by direct comparison to the 3DS XL's. Going back to the original DS (the only one I ever owned) is pretty sickening these days, though it does have a great clicky D-Pad like the GBA SP. I'll live if the Lite, DSi, and DSi XL all have pretty similar D-Pads.

DSi XL is the best way to play DS and with a DStwo also the best way to play emulated GBA games. GBA games look very lovely on the big screen.

Is it purely emulation? You'd put it above a DS Lite, or you just mean if you're emulating GBA games, it's the best-looking option?
I think GBI is a real contender at this point, but of course requires a lot more hardware. I'm sure GBA games would look great on the DSi XL though...

[telemetry]

New 3DS XL has a pretty bad D-Pad by Nintendo handheld standards.

The DSi XL isn't much better. But if you want to play DS games with a good dpad I feel your only option is the original DS. Then you'll just have to say goodbye to image quality.

...Going back to the original DS (the only one I ever owned) is pretty sickening these days, though it does have a great clicky D-Pad like the GBA SP.

Are we talking sickening like "this is so great!" or "this is even worse!"

Personally the original GBA had the best (old Nintendo pivot-cross-style) D-pad, far better in my opinion than the "clickier" SP or original DS. Haven't tried anything past those.

[bobrocks95]

Are we talking sickening like "this is so great!" or "this is even worse!"

Personally the original GBA had the best (old Nintendo pivot-cross-style) D-pad, far better in my opinion than the "clickier" SP or original DS. Haven't tried anything past those.

The "this is even worse!" choice. The screens are miniscule, the system is overly bulky, the stock stylus is uncomfortably tiny, and the big thing is the picture is just horribly washed out. I believe that's the price they paid for a screen that works well in direct sunlight, though I might have it confused with the frontlit SP.

As for the clicky D-Pads you probably either love them or hate them generally.

[BazookaBen]

I believe that's the price they paid for a screen that works well in direct sunlight, though I might have it confused with the frontlit SP.

Yeah, the original DS is definitely playable in direct sunlight. They call them transflective displays. But as you said, you have to make some sacrifices to make it work in both environments. Orignal GBA looks better outdoors, and DS Lite looks better indoors.

[telemetry]

I believe that's the price they paid for a screen that works well in direct sunlight, though I might have it confused with the frontlit SP.

Yeah, the original DS is definitely playable in direct sunlight. They call them transflective displays. But as you said, you have to make some sacrifices to make it work in both environments. Orignal GBA looks better outdoors, and DS Lite looks better indoors.

The original DS is definitely *not* transflective. It's backlit, like the later model SPs.

Comparing to my original front-lit (transflective) original SP, the fat "tank" original DS isn't usable in outdoor light at all. It does however look better indoors than the SP itself.

[BazookaBen]

Comparing to my original front-lit (transflective) original SP,.

Nope, the original GBASP is a straight up reflective screen, just like the regular GBA. It just has a light really close it. So instead of sitting under a lamp with your GBA, the lamp is built it into the system, sitting 1mm away from the screen.

Transflective displays (like the DS) have a backlight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflec ... al_display

[ZellSF]

New 3DS XL has a pretty bad D-Pad by Nintendo handheld standards.

The DSi XL isn't much better. But if you want to play DS games with a good dpad I feel your only option is the original DS. Then you'll just have to say goodbye to image quality.

The original DS is also the only DS system with good triggers.

Well the New 3DS XL's D-Pad is worse by direct comparison to the 3DS XL's.

Oh, I haven't ordered a New 3DS XL yet so I just assumed it wasn't different from images. That's a bit disappointing.

[bobrocks95]

I will say the original DS doesn't look nearly as good as a backlit GBA, at least indoors.

Well the New 3DS XL's D-Pad is worse by direct comparison to the 3DS XL's.

Oh, I haven't ordered a New 3DS XL yet so I just assumed it wasn't different from images. That's a bit disappointing.

It's nothing too bad, but it's notably mushier. I've wondered if you could get away with swapping parts, but both my 3DS' are limited edition so I'm not about to be the first person to attempt it.

[Einzelherz]

DSi XL is the best way to play DS and with a DStwo also the best way to play emulated GBA games. GBA games look very lovely on the big screen.

Is it purely emulation? You'd put it above a DS Lite, or you just mean if you're emulating GBA games, it's the best-looking option?
I think GBI is a real contender at this point, but of course requires a lot more hardware. I'm sure GBA games would look great on the DSi XL though...

If you have a full library of GBA and DS games, then the DS Lite is more useful out of the box. If you don't mind using an emulator (it was pretty good last I checked) the added screen real estate is wonderful. It's not disimilar to when one moves from a Lite/DSi to the XL, so if that jump in size wasn't more enjoyable, you probably wouldn't care about the GBA stuff either.

The way I explained it to a friend was this: a DStwo flash card + DSi XL = access to some of the best games ever made over several generations without having to ever swap carts or carry anything else.

edit: I'm also not much of a fan of a 3DS XL to play DS games. The scaling, if you use it, doesn't look great on a lot of games. In fact enjoying the size of the 3DS XL was why I bought my DSi XL in the first place. That and the DSi XL came in pink.

[Guspaz]

Technically, DS games on the 3DS involve emulation, because the 3DS doesn't have an ARM7 processor. It does have an ARM9, so it probably emulates the ARM7 on one of the ARM11s. The specs were:

GBA: 1x ARM7 @ 16 MHz + 1x Z80 @ 8 MHz
DS: 1x ARM9 @ 66 MHz + 1x ARM7 @ 33 MHz
DSi: 1x ARM9 @ 133 MHz + 1x ARM7 @ 33 MHz
3DS: 2x ARM11 @ 266 MHz + 1x ARM9 @ 66 MHz
N3DS: 4x ARM11 @ 798 MHz + 1x ARM9 @ 66 MHz

I rounded the clockspeeds a bit. Anything not included is emulated, excepting the Z80 on the DS, since its use was very restricted on the GBA and it could be replaced through other means.

Of note, the 3DS always reserves one CPU core for the OS, so the N3DS has three times as many effective CPU cores as the 3DS, for 9x the CPU power available to games. This is also a hint as to why SNES games are only supported on the N3DS.

[bobrocks95]

Technically, DS games on the 3DS involve emulation, because the 3DS doesn't have an ARM7 processor. It does have an ARM9, so it probably emulates the ARM7 on one of the ARM11s. The specs were:

GBA: 1x ARM7 @ 16 MHz + 1x Z80 @ 8 MHz
DS: 1x ARM9 @ 66 MHz + 1x ARM7 @ 33 MHz
DSi: 1x ARM9 @ 133 MHz + 1x ARM7 @ 33 MHz
3DS: 2x ARM11 @ 266 MHz + 1x ARM9 @ 66 MHz
N3DS: 4x ARM11 @ 798 MHz + 1x ARM9 @ 66 MHz

I rounded the clockspeeds a bit. Anything not included is emulated, excepting the Z80 on the DS, since its use was very restricted on the GBA and it could be replaced through other means.

Of note, the 3DS always reserves one CPU core for the OS, so the N3DS has three times as many effective CPU cores as the 3DS, for 9x the CPU power available to games. This is also a hint as to why SNES games are only supported on the N3DS.

According to 3dbrew there is an ARM7 processor internal to the ARM9 processor. It's booted up when switching to a DS game or when running an ambassador club GBA game, which explains its lack of save states and other features, but also means it presumably only has to emulate the Z80 processor just like (I'm guessing) the DS did. So those games essentially aren't emulated.

The instruction set for ARM9 should be backwards-compatible with ARM7's anyway, with the exception of some fundamentally different handling of misaligned memory in later ARM revisions.

EDIT: Maybe wait for byuu to look into the GBA claims. He literally tweeted a link to this out just after I posted here- https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comm ... _on_a_3ds/

If you have a full library of GBA and DS games, then the DS Lite is more useful out of the box. If you don't mind using an emulator (it was pretty good last I checked) the added screen real estate is wonderful. It's not disimilar to when one moves from a Lite/DSi to the XL, so if that jump in size wasn't more enjoyable, you probably wouldn't care about the GBA stuff either.

The way I explained it to a friend was this: a DStwo flash card + DSi XL = access to some of the best games ever made over several generations without having to ever swap carts or carry anything else.

I'm not a flashcart kind of person anyway, so I was just asking out of curiosity. The DS Lite path is pretty obviously the best option if you want to try to consolidate as many systems as you can together. I play portable games at home though, so I don't feel any reason to do that.

edit: I'm also not much of a fan of a 3DS XL to play DS games. The scaling, if you use it, doesn't look great on a lot of games. In fact enjoying the size of the 3DS XL was why I bought my DSi XL in the first place. That and the DSi XL came in pink.

Yeah I've said it before, the scaling is garbo. Might make some rough-edged 3D games look better, but it destroys any 2D UI or game elements.

[Guspaz]

The reddit thread seems inconclusive, and even 3dbrew seems a bit vague on the topic: it seems their assertion is based on the assumption that the ARM11 is largely not connected to the ARM9, and so couldn't communicate through the ARM7 registers, so it must not be emulating the ARM7.

ARM9 being backwards compatible isn't the issue, the DS requires both an ARM9 and an ARM7, so it couldn't do double-duty.

In any event, it's clear that GBA backwards compatibility mode is a huge kluge

The Z80 isn't really required: as I understand it, you weren't really able to use it in a GBA game anyhow, and the DS does have the GB/GBC sound hardware onboard, which is just about the only part of the GB/GBC that GBA games could/did use.

[bobrocks95]

The reddit thread seems inconclusive,

That's why I'm waiting on byuu's (or whoever it was he said he'd forward it to) findings on that one.

and even 3dbrew seems a bit vague on the topic: it seems their assertion is based on the assumption that the ARM11 is largely not connected to the ARM9, and so couldn't communicate through the ARM7 registers, so it must not be emulating the ARM7.

The article on firmware is much more conclusive on this:

DS(i)-mode ARM7 code is run on the internal ARM7 core, which is started up during TWL_FIRM boot.

So they clearly have a direct indicator that an ARM7 core is booting.

ARM9 being backwards compatible isn't the issue, the DS requires both an ARM9 and an ARM7, so it couldn't do double-duty.

I should probably leave that alone since I don't know much about it. You could theoretically set up a more advanced ARM9 core as a parallel system running both code but there's probably a billion timing issues there.

In any event, it's clear that GBA backwards compatibility mode is a huge kluge

The Z80 isn't really required: as I understand it, you weren't really able to use it in a GBA game anyhow, and the DS does have the GB/GBC sound hardware onboard, which is just about the only part of the GB/GBC that GBA games could/did use.

Doesn't sound like a kluge to me (it's nice to learn new words!) unless byuu comes back with some significant findings. People like smea have done extensive documentation on 3dbrew and I'm inclined to trust what's on there unless proven wrong. The detail in it shows that people aren't fumbling around and finding things by accident.

As for the Z80 I think GBA games only had access to some audio channels on it, and I can't think of any games that used it. Wikipedia phrases it as being used as a "tone generator" in GBA games.

[BONKERS]

If all you want is nothing but DS games as big as possible then go for it. I personally hated my DSiXL when I had one, too heavy, too big with such low resolution, the hinges weren't strong enough to not make the top section wobble.

It was sexy as hell looking. But not for everyone, sounds like it's up your alley though.


I'm pretty picky as is I guess. I hated the DSlite with a passion and have never had a chance to own any plain DSi's so I still use my same old launch era DSPhat.

I am perfectly happy with a DSPhat and have been for well over a decade. I wish it had better uniformity/viewing angles and better color reproduction. But I can live with it for most games.
Especially since there is essentially no ghosting and only minor amounts of blur typical of a sample and hold when playing 60FPS games.

[Einzelherz]

Afaik the wobble on the top screen for both XLs is intentional.

[Immryr]

can anyone tell me a good place to buy R4/dstwo cards? all the sites I've been on seem pretty dubious and often don't even have a secure checkout.

[Einzelherz]

GBAtemp might still sell them. If not, someone there can definitely point you in the right direction.