Future funding of the forum

[RGB]

I just chipped in. Thanks for keeping this place alive, mostly out of your own pocket for all these years.

PS Marketplace tax is a good idea, but it will hit people who only buy or sell once or twice a year and it's not always the expensive stuff.

[DejahThoris]

Just put a counter showing the amount paid in.

One of the reasons I no longer contribute is because I can't see if your funding the site or pocketing money.

Its just a case of transparency for me.

Fuck you.

Total donations across 2014 & 2015: £256.85 (actually less due to the exchange rate changing, thats in todays money with a low pound)
Total costs from my pocket on hosting across 2014 & 2015: £1728

You need to sit down and think about your general mistrust of other people, this is actually the most insulting thing anyone has ever posted in my general direction on this forum, ever.

I just want to throw in that when I said I'd agreed with neorichie, I simply meant that I like the idea of seeing what's being contributed, and like I mentioned, maybe a donations raised thermometer or something. I don't have any worries/thoughts that anyone is pocketing anything. Just wanted to clarify and not be in that same group.

[Zen]

Done.
Thank you, system11, for hosting.

[Elixir]

I dislike donating, mostly because my local currency sucks and PayPal takes a cut, but I'd be down for a lifetime membership type deal. Something like 1 month/$10, 3 month/$30, 6 month/$40, lifetime/$90 could work. As for the incentives:

Spoiler

Up to X PMs for you and your addressees
Unlimited sale creations
Upload X pictures as attachments per post
Embed webm/gifv into posts
Up to X subscriptions
Add a picture to your profile, expanded profile customization, maybe as well as a different username color?
Hide partner adverts (if you choose to add them)
Categorize subscribed threads into specific folders (ie. Wants, SNES, Bad Threads, etc)
Add a title of your choice near your username
Indication that the user is a supporter (badge?)
Larger avatar (something like 125x125 could work without breaking tables)

Marketplace tax is also a great idea, since so many people just register to offload their crap there. Siliconera and lots of Japanese blogs use Amazon and Play-Asia affiliate banners.

Another site I know of has a $10 member registration (with $10 for searching archives/being able to report people, and $5 per avatar change), and another sells shirts. And one of them is $35 USD per year, which gives ad-free browsing, a custom user title, a little badge, animated avatars, a private forum, and unlimited PMs.

Ultimately, you need to find a way of taking money from people, because many people will never donate without an incentive, and will never make a selfless "donation" unless it benefits them in some way. These are the people who buy Twitch subscriptions for silly emotes, virtual avatars and themes, DLC, etc. You need to capture that audience.

[Woozle]

Donated. Thanks for creating these forums and supporting them the past decade.

[STG4WD]

Just hopping back in here to add my 2p worth to this thread. I’m doing this because

- I like the genre
- I like the fact there is an English language resource for it like this
- I think System11 has done a stand-up job taking things to their current position.

So here goes…

Like several others around here that I know of, I’m a recent arrival to the shmups genre, coming from a background in the FGC. My time in the FGC means I have a decent arcade stick and I like games with high intensity and technical challenge.

I am used to digesting info from the web in the form of blogs like Event Hubs and Shoryuken, which have grown from humble beginnings and made a big contribution to the growth in popularity of fighting games over the last 10 years.

Coming to the shmups forum, I have been constantly disappointed by the contrast vs FGC sites. The ‘forum’ format (as opposed to a blog) does not lend itself so well to tracking news and highlighting new releases, or to showcasing performances by good players. These things happen, but they happen way better with a blog.

It wouldn’t be so bad, but then there’s the shocking air of snobbery and elitism from some long standing members here. This manifests itself in various forms, such as negativity towards new developers, and hostility to any ideas aimed at trying to make the genre more popular like the FGC. There’s also too much chat about crusty old games (which I’m sure are great) at the expense of real promo for great new games, of which there are a few e.g. the Cave Steam releases which have had a fairly limp reception.

Quite honestly, I wouldn’t pay a penny for use of this forum in its current state. If I’m going to hand over cash, I would want it to be for a blog that is specifically aimed at improving the (woeful) fortunes of the genre, and welcoming new players. Fair enough if the forum is attached to the blog so that all the market place, technical info, strategy guides etc. are retained, but the front end should be an edited blog with pics and videos in each post, where everyone can have their little say in the comments.

I’m not interested in paying to fund some sort of retirement home for grumpy old gamers.

Give us real hype/hope, or get the cash elsewhere. NB the FGC blogs don't need to charge, because they are actually popular...

That’s my 2p worth.

Inb4 the WR1LCnolifebars fanboy rrrage erupts.

#kappa.

[Strikers1945guy]

What

[Xyga]

What

[trap15]

What

The guy that knows nothing about the genre thinks it's directly comparable to fighting games, which are both more well-known and many orders of magnitude more alive. There is no news for shooting games, and what little there is gets posted to the @shmups twitter.

[Zen]

What

The guy that knows nothing about the genre thinks it's directly comparable to fighting games, which are both more well-known and many orders of magnitude more alive. There is no news for shooting games, and what little there is gets posted to the @shmups twitter.

Im gonna leave the Duds handle this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ps9nH6flI

[rancor]

There’s also too much chat about crusty old games (which I’m sure are great) at the expense of real promo for great new games, of which there are a few e.g. the Cave Steam releases which have had a fairly limp reception.

I lol'd..

This is satire, right? .... right?

[Strikers1945guy]

No more talking about crusty old games everyone it will get in the way of the steam release for games people already own one of the many ports of.

[NickPalmerDegica]

And just to say, speaking from the perspective of Degica, our Steam releases have not gotten a limp reception either. Shmups are some of our best sellers.

[d0s]

Just hopping back in here to add my 2p worth to this thread. I’m doing this because

- I like the genre
- I like the fact there is an English language resource for it like this
- I think System11 has done a stand-up job taking things to their current position.

So here goes…

Like several others around here that I know of, I’m a recent arrival to the shmups genre, coming from a background in the FGC. My time in the FGC means I have a decent arcade stick and I like games with high intensity and technical challenge.

I am used to digesting info from the web in the form of blogs like Event Hubs and Shoryuken, which have grown from humble beginnings and made a big contribution to the growth in popularity of fighting games over the last 10 years.

Coming to the shmups forum, I have been constantly disappointed by the contrast vs FGC sites. The ‘forum’ format (as opposed to a blog) does not lend itself so well to tracking news and highlighting new releases, or to showcasing performances by good players. These things happen, but they happen way better with a blog.

It wouldn’t be so bad, but then there’s the shocking air of snobbery and elitism from some long standing members here. This manifests itself in various forms, such as negativity towards new developers, and hostility to any ideas aimed at trying to make the genre more popular like the FGC. There’s also too much chat about crusty old games (which I’m sure are great) at the expense of real promo for great new games, of which there are a few e.g. the Cave Steam releases which have had a fairly limp reception.

Quite honestly, I wouldn’t pay a penny for use of this forum in its current state. If I’m going to hand over cash, I would want it to be for a blog that is specifically aimed at improving the (woeful) fortunes of the genre, and welcoming new players. Fair enough if the forum is attached to the blog so that all the market place, technical info, strategy guides etc. are retained, but the front end should be an edited blog with pics and videos in each post, where everyone can have their little say in the comments.

I’m not interested in paying to fund some sort of retirement home for grumpy old gamers.

Give us real hype/hope, or get the cash elsewhere. NB the FGC blogs don't need to charge, because they are actually popular...

That’s my 2p worth.

Inb4 the WR1LCnolifebars fanboy rrrage erupts.

#kappa.

you are a herb

[STG4WD]

And just to say, speaking from the perspective of Degica, our Steam releases have not gotten a limp reception either. Shmups are some of our best sellers.

To be clearer about what I meant:

The Steam releases of these games have gotten a limp reception ON THIS FORUM. How would I know what the sales are?

Are you seriously gonna tell me you wouldn't rather there was a blog that could have given Deathsmiles a proper launch day review and coverage?

As for the rest of the lame, ad-hominem replies to my post, I find them typical of exactly the kind of bad attitude that drives people away from this forum and the genre. If you can't deal with my points substantively you're showing zero respect for the OP.

[Shepardus]

A blog post would only provide coverage to those who already care to visit the site in the first place, and chances are if you're visiting here or care about CAVE shmups at all you already heard of it. It's a ton of work if you don't want it to be a barren wasteland (just ask Elixir, who maintains the @shmups Twitter) for what I imagine to be a fairly limited payoff. There are things a centralized news source are good for, but I don't think an inability to (voluntarily) find news about these games is what really limits the size and health of this niche. My guess is that most of the potential audience is lost or left unreached before they even get to the point where they care to find information about the games.

For many of the people here this is the second or third time Deathsmiles has been released. It's nearly a decade old (which by most standards is the sort of "crusty old games" you lament) and many people around here who are actually interested in the game have already bought it and played it to death on Xbox 360 or PCB, so it's understandable that the most enthusiastic about shmups may actually be less enthusiastic about another port. Not everyone here even likes Deathsmiles, and some even vehemently hate it enough to list it as their least favorite CAVE shooter in that thread currently on the first page. For the sake of a FGC analogy, it's like the old Blazblue or Guilty Gear releases on Steam which, while nice for people who don't have the platforms they originally launched on, aren't exactly landmark releases for FGC enthusiasts.

Besides, you yourself don't seem nearly as enthusiastic about promoting actually new releases such as Dariusburst: Chronicle Saviours.

[DejahThoris]

As for the rest of the lame, ad-hominem replies to my post, I find them typical of exactly the kind of bad attitude that drives people away from this forum and the genre. If you can't deal with my points substantively you're showing zero respect for the OP.

I'm sorry, didn't you end your previous thought with a Kappa hashtag..?

In any case, I agree that this forum showed a limp reception for the CAVE re-re-releases. Probably just because they're re-re-releases, and from what I've read here, the slowdown on DS is all messed up, which is nigh on unforgivable to most around here. It's not that the community hates having new games, it's that they're tired of having "new" games that aren't new. And grow even more tired when they aren't ported properly. Dariusburst was super well received around here.

I agree it'd be cool to have a streamlined News section though. What format it's in, I don't really care. Blog, videos, Twitter, or even a stickied News thread that couldn't have non-moderator/admin posts.

I also agree that I don't see the point in making the entire forum a paysite. The marketplace, sure, because people are making money off of it or getting good deals.

Just chiming in I guess. Either way, the site's got my fiver a month. I'm on here far too often despite how little I post to be willing to let it die.

[d0s]

Are you seriously gonna tell me you wouldn't rather there was a blog that could have given Deathsmiles a proper launch day review and coverage?

Yeah what the STG community needs is even more of a focus on cave to the exclusion of all else than it already has boy I tell ya hwat

e: just donated to this mean ol elitist forum

[Elixir]

It's a ton of work if you don't want it to be a barren wasteland (just ask Elixir, who maintains the @shmups Twitter) for what I imagine to be a fairly limited payoff.

Over 6 years, it wouldn't even be $50. Just random people clicking affiliate links. And I'm talking to the degree of something like .7 cents per $80 game order.

If anyone out there is interested in helping with @shmups do let me know, I could definitely use a hand. DJI is pretty absent these days and I've always been bad at keeping track of non-Japanese gaming media (indie games, etc).

[Strikers1945guy]

For brand new game releases maybe a sticky could be made for them until they are released (like Raiden V for example) to help give them a tiny bit more publicity, but the steam release of DeathsmIles didn't need any real publicity. It's like the 3rd time the damn game is getting a release.

[Skykid]

It wouldn’t be so bad, but then there’s the shocking air of snobbery and elitism from some long standing members here. This manifests itself in various forms, such as negativity towards new developers, and hostility to any ideas aimed at trying to make the genre more popular like the FGC. There’s also too much chat about crusty old games (which I’m sure are great) at the expense of real promo for great new games, of which there are a few e.g. the Cave Steam releases which have had a fairly limp reception.

The shocking air of snobbery and elitism is a perception partly based on newcomers observing the comments of long-time genre aficionados. It doesn't need changing or addressing, just think of it like one of I those 80s movie police stations full of vets cracking tough guy jokes and speaking the in-house lexicon. Every so often a rookie comes through the door and get his balls busted.

Speaking of which, firstly, FGCs in my experience are some of the biggest ball busters of all - they roast noobs like it's part of the sport.

Secondly:

There’s also too much chat about crusty old games

That's the kind of statement that deserves an elitist body slam.

[Xyga]

Crusty old gamers community.

[Pedro Lambrini]

STG4WD, you could start a blog. What's stopping you? If you worked hard and kept it alive perhaps then you could ask for donations. I'm not trolling you. It's a serious suggestion.

I like interesting blogs as much as the next person but that doesn't (and shouldn't) preclude the need for a lively and active forum. Perhaps, if you got a blog going you could share hosting and affiliate yourself with this forum and perhaps the STG Weekly guys. Then we, as a community, would have a blog, forum AND a podcast of sorts. Each fueling the other. What do you say? If you go for it I'll donate just as I have here.

As an aside, the Deathsmiles thread is now 10 pages long. That's not a bad response at all for a 10 year old port of a port and people are STILL actively chatting about Dariusburst and the latest DLC. And people are chomping at the bit to see what Degica are going to release next.

Personally, I feel that shmups are on the up just like Roguelikes were a few years ago and fighters before that.

Anyway, a bit more on topic. System11, I'm curious, have you thought any further about where the future lies?

[NickPalmerDegica]

Also, there are plenty of sites that gave coverage of the Deathsmiles launch. They were general gaming sites, which for exposure overall is awesome. The benefit of this site is much more focused, but no less important to us. I've learned more about SHMUP games in the last few weeks than the entire rest of my life combined just reading here.

The feedback from this forum on Deathsmiles has been superior to our feedback pretty much anywhere else (and I'm still on that guys, just so you know).

I don't really see this as a "news hub" which is what you want it to be. Yeah, there is news here, but that isn't its purpose.

[STG4WD]

Also, there are plenty of sites that gave coverage of the Deathsmiles launch. They were general gaming sites, which for exposure overall is awesome. The benefit of this site is much more focused, but no less important to us. I've learned more about SHMUP games in the last few weeks than the entire rest of my life combined just reading here.

The feedback from this forum on Deathsmiles has been superior to our feedback pretty much anywhere else (and I'm still on that guys, just so you know).

I don't really see this as a "news hub" which is what you want it to be. Yeah, there is news here, but that isn't its purpose.

If I honestly thought that e.g. Capcom or Nether Realm Studios would say they don't need successful blogs like Shoryuken or Event Hubs to help foster a growing community around their products and create a sense of hype around their whole genre, I would agree with you.

But quite honestly, I don't.

[Xyga]

I can smell you really don't know much about this world even accross the internet.

[moh]

pm send

[blackoak]

The shocking air of snobbery and elitism is a perception partly based on newcomers observing the comments of long-time genre aficionados. It doesn't need changing or addressing, just think of it like one of I those 80s movie police stations full of vets cracking tough guy jokes and speaking the in-house lexicon. Every so often a rookie comes through the door and get his balls busted.

Well said. I think there's an elitism of ideas here about design, but that's just as it should be. I honestly see less of the pernicious, meritless member-centric elitism here than in other to-be-unnamed vg forums.

As for the ongoing forum support, I'll gladly throw down on whatever format gets decided.

[Sier]

@ System11 - It's not much, but if I can tip my hat to such a majestic place...

It's the very least I could do..

Would only be an honour to donate, sir.

[moozooh]

I don't really post here anymore, but meh, why not chip in a few bucks while the topic is hot.

A few things I wanted to say.

1. VPS is a solid option these days; do look into that. I've been keeping up with news and press releases (some of it due to my job), and basically, every technology that has anything to do with networks and communication is gradually moving towards virtual or virtualized solutions these days. The reason is it's way more flexible and, potentially, much safer, because in many cases that means software and data are completely untied from particular pieces of hardware.

2. I absolutely support the marketplace tax. Seems like an obvious thing to do considering the deals here.

3. Recurring payments, donation drives, and supporter incentives are not mutually exclusive because they target distinctly different audiences. A recurring payment is best for people with a stable low to mid surplus. A donation drive is better for people with unstable surplus and/or spending habits (like myself) who sometimes have cash to spare, but you need to capture their attention before it's gone. Paid membership with supporter badges and whatnot is best for "whales" who typically have the most money to spend but also prefer having some kind of reward for it, either tangible or demonstrative. You can combine all of that—and, in fact, you probably should.

4. Re: donation meter. It helps some people and puts off the others depending on their mindset. Two different persons may have polar opposite reactions to a nearly empty meter ("Meh, my contribution would just be a drop in the bucket" vs. "Dang, they're running so low, I should chip in") or a nearly full one ("I see they're doing well for now, I should rather put this money to some other use" vs. "Oh, they're almost there, I can help too"); some things are more gratifying for one but not the other. I don't have any concrete data on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the net result of using a meter in terms of amount of money raised is close to zero. But I agree that transparency-wise it makes sense if that is of any priority to you.

5. Re: tax burden and cutting costs. It only makes sense that you'd first look into the most optimal solution that would feed the most amount of money to its direct purpose with the least overkill, but don't let it inconvenience yourself too much or anything else like that. I mean if this leads to some setup that would end up with users having a subpar experience with the forum, or you having bad time maintaining it, that would just go against the contribution they've been willing to make, and consequently, demotivate them from further contributions. Go with whatever option that would keep the user experience high and your ability to run it the least troublesome.