Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

[Steven]

Good thing I never said it's the easiest one, then~

Please rank them. I don't like this developer enough to really want to 1CC any of their games, so I'll take your word for it. ESP Ra.De. does seem on the easy side out of all of the CAVE games that I gave played, though, which is about 2/3 to 3/4 of them. I know Deathsmiles is like the single easiest one, but I haven't played that yet.

I will say that Perikles has Slap Fight WAY too high, though.

[bcass]

Difficulty wise, I roughly agree with the list in the OP as far as Cave difficulty is concerned. Once you get to Progear, IMO that's when the difficulty starts to noticeably ramp-up compared to the lower ranked titles.

[Steven]

Is Progear hard? I found it at Mikado a few years ago, and with no knowledge of the game, no missed to the stage 3 boss the first time I played it, got bored, and suicided until game over. Haven't played it since. Yeah, I know that might sound kind of insane, but that is the (very strange) experience I had with it. I have heard the overseas version might be harder than the Japanese version, though, and of course I never saw past the stage 3 boss.

[bcass]

Stages 1 to 3 are quite tame, much of the difficulty for a 1CC comes from the latter stages which have significant difficulty bumps. Final boss is also especially tough. You also need to play more risky on the earlier stages if you want enough resources to finish the game.

[Steven]

Okay. I don't know about resources because I have absolutely no idea how to play the game, but that's about what I figured. Not sure about that overseas version's difficulty, but maybe I'll do some research if I get bored later. I don't even remember where I got that idea that the overseas version is harder, but I do recall seeing it somewhere recently.

[bcass]

I cleared the original Japanese version, haven't played any other versions so can't comment.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The US release of Progear isn't that different from the JP one in terms of gameplay. If you can do well at one, you'll do well at the other. I'm not even sure the US release really is that different honestly, and I struggle sometimes to tell the difference (its difficulty setting defaults to 2 but feels like it's tweaked to be the same as the JP version's default of 4, so US operators can feel like they can crank the difficulty that much higher if they want). Rank might rise slightly slower, though if you're scoring well you can max out rank by stage 1 by sealing enemy bullets, which jacks up rank quickly.

In terms of absolute difficulty, Progear's a tough game, but not that much tougher than Dodonpachi. I find Esp.Ra.De and Espgaluda 2 far harder as you don't have a relatively huge shot flooding the screen with bullets that you can lock onto anytime you need to make an attack from above or below (it's a lot easier than Ketsui where the lock on only happens if hitting with the middle shot). If you're able to no-miss to the S3 boss without bombing, you'll have tons of resources for the extra lives which are given out generously if you score well (as opposed to only 2 extra lives from scoring + item as in most CAVE games). Progear's bombs aren't terribly strong though and don't do much damage to bosses compared to DDP laser bombs on a per-frame bases, but because they last a long time they still allow you to deal a decent chunk of damage.

Progear is way, WAY harder in loop 2 than most CAVE games though, owing to the nightmarishly hard changes found in the loop. You have some of the craziest, most dense revenge bullets out there on top of far harder enemy and boss patterns, more enemies in stages, and checkpoints that force you back to the start of the stage if you die any point before the boss. I've only made it to 2-3 in both the JP and US versions.

And yeah, Esp.Ra.De is quite tough. There are several other CAVE games where shot types feel stronger and fill the screen more effectively relative to the enemies. I've cleared a number of CAVE games and Esp.Ra.De still eludes me.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Ketsui at 21 is ridiculous as well. I'm 99% sure CAVE made Ketsui as a joke because it's 100% not clearable without TAS.

[Meriscan]

Ketsui at 21 is ridiculous as well. I'm 99% sure CAVE made Ketsui as a joke because it's 100% not clearable without TAS.

Someone add this to http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 63#p780663

[DrTrouserPlank]

Ketsui at 21 is ridiculous as well. I'm 99% sure CAVE made Ketsui as a joke because it's 100% not clearable without TAS.

Someone add this to http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 63#p780663

It's a ludicrous game. It has a good scoring system that lets you actually play the scoring game at various levels/abilities unlike DOJ which makes you feel like you don't deserve to live if you dare to break the combo with it's 0.25Sec timer.

The later patterns/levels however are utter donkey dick. It's like they sat in their office and came up with as many troll patterns as possible and when they were finished said "Let's see these fucking idiots clear this shit"

Great soundtrack (4 is an absolute banger), the ships feel great to use (nice speed on lock and shot). There's a lot to like about it. It feels really good until you realise that Ketsui Kizuna Jigoku Tachi roughly translated means "feed me your money, let me ramrod your asshole and you'll thank me for the privilege". Translation apps can be unreliable. YMMV.

[ZPScissors]

whoever put ESP.ra.de as a 20 there has got to be taking the piss. Game is ludicrously difficult.

I was under the impression that ESP Ra.De. is (almost universally?) considered to be one of the easiest games CAVE ever made, assuming you're doing survival and not scoring, but this list is not very good and sometimes just plain wrong. I wouldn't really bother using it unless what you are looking for isn't on the much, MUCH better Perikles list. Both lists are missing at least some things that the other has, but in general the Perikles one is way better. Obligatory "difficulty is subjective", of course.

From what I've played (never finished the clear but I did get to the final boss a few times) 20 for ESP Ra De seems perfectly reasonable. Overall I feel like the list is fairly accurate for CAVE games (there's still some things wrong though, ie. just about everyone I've seen comment on Dangun No TLB's placement thinks it's too high) but yeah, it's full of inaccuracies otherwise. Sometimes there's trends to it, for example (just based on my opinion), Yagawa games tend to be a little bit too high, Raiden Fighters tends to be too low, and there's several games where I think their No Autofire rating is where With Autofire should be. Then there's the absolutely insane stuff like the infamous rating of Sam3 1p at 24 when literally everyone in this community that has actually cleared it thinks it should be in the mid or high 30s, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, Twin Eagle at 41 which was clearly just rated based on the fact that using 30hz autofire makes the rank go completely out of control (which can be mitigated by simply using a slower autofire rate)

[Steven]

From what I've played (never finished the clear but I did get to the final boss a few times) 20 for ESP Ra De seems perfectly reasonable. Overall I feel like the list is fairly accurate for CAVE games (there's still some things wrong though, ie. just about everyone I've seen comment on Dangun No TLB's placement thinks it's too high) but yeah, it's full of inaccuracies otherwise. Sometimes there's trends to it, for example (just based on my opinion), Yagawa games tend to be a little bit too high, Raiden Fighters tends to be too low, and there's several games where I think their No Autofire rating is where With Autofire should be. Then there's the absolutely insane stuff like the infamous rating of Sam3 1p at 24 when literally everyone in this community that has actually cleared it thinks it should be in the mid or high 30s, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, Twin Eagle at 41 which was clearly just rated based on the fact that using 30hz autofire makes the rank go completely out of control (which can be mitigated by simply using a slower autofire rate)

Also Same! 1P at -10 with autofire, putting at 14 and making it easier than Hishouzame. Lol.

BTW while you're here, I decided to go for Same! 1P this year first and then do Tatsujin Ou later unless I pick up the Tatsujin Ou PCB soon, in which case I'll switch to that instead.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Ketsui at 21 is ridiculous as well. I'm 99% sure CAVE made Ketsui as a joke because it's 100% not clearable without TAS.

I watched someone get to 2-5 Hibachi in DOJ BL in person this weekend, and I got through most of Ketsui's first loop without dying in an amazingly good run. I think if you approach these games with a "it can't be done" mindset, you're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy when you play. Remember: Never Give Up!!

[DrTrouserPlank]

DFK strong ... 12

Basically a formality then?

A game so difficult that cave had to include an auto-bomb into arcade so people could play it.... ...... they had to include a "super-easy" mechanic into an arcade machine to make people keep putting money into it.

I just think some people who make these lists have devoted so much of their lives to these games that their view on difficulty is so utterly warped as to be meaningless.

[EmperorIng]

Yes Trouser-sama, a game so challenging the autobomb lets you sleep to a 1all with almost no thought, because all the difficulty is in stage 5 and you can just bomb and hyper through it.

Ketsui cannot be cleared without tas

lmao, good to have some genuine laffs again as opposed to just getting annoyed at people parroting misinfo

[BareKnuckleRoo]

DFK strong ... 12

A game so difficult that cave had to include an auto-bomb into arcade so people could play it....

The best part of this is the initial release of DFK 1.0 (the one that didn't have the helicopter yet) didn't even include autobombing. Instead, bomb items REFILLED YOUR ENTIRE STOCK, similar to the Donpachi US version giving a full refill at the end of each stage. This actually makes it even easier than DFK 1.5 with its autobombs as you had way, way more total bombs to use and could just blast through anything remotely troublesome.

The only genuinely nasty part in DFK is learning the laser wheel routing, namely for the ones that appear from behind you. It's also tough to learn how to squeeze through them while lasering as your laser aura makes it a bit tricky to see the gaps. If you have the resources though? You just hyper or bomb right through them to safety. There's still a lot of bullets flying around, but a 1-All is by no means brutal.

[To Far Away Times]

I have never wavered so much on shmup like I have on DFK.

On one hand it is so over the top and ridiculous that it has that gravity that made me want to play it as soon as I saw it. And it's a fairly easy 1CC with practice, 12 feels about right to me based on that ranking, and one that can be fairly consistent and also avoids restart syndrome thanks to the auto bombs. But the auto bombs are also the part of the game's biggest weakness.

Even though the 1.0 version didn't have auto bomb, it truly feels like the autobombs were a band aid to cover up bad stage design and really always meant to be there. If you put those same autobombs into a game with fantastic level design like a Mushihimesama Futari, DOJ, or Ketusi, the autobomb would make no sense. But in DFK it feels like it needs to be there. Stage five is way too hard and unfun without auto bomb, and with the autobomb it feels incredibly sloppy and fairly low stakes. And so for that reason, DFK has always felt like a game that was less than the sum of some otherwise fairly incredible parts. Touhou 15 - Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom has this same problem of too high of a difficulty that is covered up with a sloppy autobomb mechanic.

That being said I think DFK is still worth playing, but it is solidly in the middle of CAVE's work when some revised stage design could have really elevated it.

Plank, have you ever tried DonPachi US version that Roo mentioned? That versions refills your bombs at the end of each stage, meaning the only bombs that go to waste are the ones you don't use, and is kind of inbetween a bullet hell and a manic shmup. Not to difficult either, one of CAVE's easier ones. I think 1 - 2 hours of pratice a day and I had the clear after 4 days.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I have never wavered so much on shmup like I have on DFK.

Plank, have you ever tried DonPachi US version that Roo mentioned? That versions refills your bombs at the end of each stage, meaning the only bombs that go to waste are the ones you don't use, and is kind of inbetween a bullet hell and a manic shmup. Not to difficult either, one of CAVE's easier ones. I think 1 - 2 hours of pratice a day and I had the clear after 4 days.

I just had a look at it. The problem is that I will die 99% of the time with all my bombs. It still seems like it's going to get fairly difficult but more in the Psikyo vein with random fast shots rather than overwhelm from bullet walls. I only really enjoy the Danmakus, and games have to reach a kind of manic threshold for me to find them fun enough to keep playing. This may well get there eventually, I didn't play long enough to tell.

[Angry Hina]

I thought as well, that 12 suits that game. Its as well harder compared to Deathsmiles.

[donluca]

From my experience, both suffer from the same "impossible last stage" issue.

For DFK it's the damn stage with the rotating lasers and for DS it's the ballroom.

Up to those parts, honestly, they are pretty much innocuous, even for someone who's terrible at shmups like me.

[Angry Hina]

Its very common in this genre, that the last stage does a bigger jump in difficulty and lenght compared to the ones before. DFK and DS do it in the same manner like many others do, I think.

[donluca]

That's not the case in most games, IMHO, unless you count stuff like TLBs and extra stages unlocked under special conditions.

Most of the CAVE and Toaplan games I've played have a very nice ramp of difficulty with no particular spikes toward the end.

I mean, they *do* slightly increase in the difficulty, but nowhere near the insane jump there is in DFK and DS.

[To Far Away Times]

DFK’s last stage feels like it was plucked from some ransom kusoge, rest of the game is pretty solid though.

Deathsmiles’ last stage isn’t that bad, but it’s stage select map doesn’t include the final level so most people are probably going into it raw and it takes some repetition to figure it out.

Deathsmiles essentially ends at the penultimate boss, provided you can reach Jitterbug and are not on your final life you shouldn’t have much trouble without bombing. Once you do that you are awarded two lives with a total of six bombs plus the three you’ll have in stock, meaning you never have to make risky dodges as you bomb the final boss to oblivion.

[Angry Hina]

That's not the case in most games, IMHO, unless you count stuff like TLBs and extra stages unlocked under special conditions.

Most of the CAVE and Toaplan games I've played have a very nice ramp of difficulty with no particular spikes toward the end.

I mean, they *do* slightly increase in the difficulty, but nowhere near the insane jump there is in DFK and DS.

I thought in the moment of my post about Tatsujin. Its 5th stage is much harder compared to the rest but you are right that its not too often the case. But in my memory DFK wasnt that extreme either.

[donluca]

I guess in the end it heavily depends on the individual player and its strength and weaknesses in attacking each shmup mechanics.

For me the ballroom in DS and the rotating lasers in DFK are absolute bullshit, especially because of how easy everything is before that part.

Other players may feel less of an increase in difficulty because they might be used to certain patterns or situations.

That's also why I've always been a little skeptical about making tier lists about shmups difficulty.

[MaXXX]

DFK strong ... 12

Basically a formality then?

A game so difficult that cave had to include an auto-bomb into arcade so people could play it.... ...... they had to include a "super-easy" mechanic into an arcade machine to make people keep putting money into it.

I just think some people who make these lists have devoted so much of their lives to these games that their view on difficulty is so utterly warped as to be meaningless.

Can you clear anything rated above 12? If not, the fact that you cannot clear DFK Strong is not a rebuttal to DFK Strong being a 12.