Why don't you try hard?

[Cee]

Also I've seen Chempop say it before but he's right, the people with the biggest collections are usually the worst players. Coincidence?

That and the "arcade enthusiast" owns 3 cabs of his own types they always seem to be total shit at actually playing.

[Stevens]

Also I've seen Chempop say it before but he's right, the people with the biggest collections are usually the worst players. Coincidence?

Keres nailed it below.

In some attempt to be constructive, I'll say that I eventually decided that it was a lot more fun to be good (or, you know, work towards trying to be good) at one game at a time, rather than mediocre at a dozen. It's really fun to delve into the little intricacies of a game to the extent that you only can once you're completely familiar with it. Watching yourself actually make good progress is also extremely rewarding. Maybe that'll speak to someone here and help motivate them to focus on a single game.

It took me almost three months to commit to a new clear after my last. I played a bunch of different games since then and (naturally) haven't made any real progress in any of them.

That said I am a big believer in downtime after a clear, particularly a hard fought one. All things being equal though I am really looking forward to SDOJ at this point.

[ReSe2k]

That said I am a big believer in downtime after a clear, particularly a hard fought one.

What exactly do you mean by downtime?

[Stevens]

What exactly do you mean by downtime?

I had a huge comical response involving a fake dictionary entry, but alas I am lazy.

For me it means playing a lot of different shooters (anywhere from a few weeks to a few months) without really committing to any one game.

[Tatsuya79]

Don't try so hard
Oooh don't take it all to heart
It's only fools they make these rules
Don't try so hard
(Just use save-states)

[CWM]

Given that I'm new to the genre, I've been trying to play many different games in an attempt to broaden my horizons and find what I actually like and don't like in shmups. I do plan to eventually dive deeper into a game I particularly enjoyed, though, and I do aim for at least a sissy clear in every game I play seriously.

That said, I do have pretty much the whole first loop of DOJBL burned into memory, but that's mostly a result of the game being too difficult for me, and strict routing being very helpful there.

[mamboFoxtrot]

cuz I'm a scrub who started playing stgs a few years ago and has only gotten past the first third of, like, one whole game and has never seen 100% of any shooter I've played. That and I have the memory of a newt anyways.

[Blinge]

^
Pick game. play (at least) one credit a day, every day for months, report back?

[copy-paster]

Unless you're a "true hardcore" shmup fan, beating it via one credit is personal honor. But hey, is there any rules to "must beat the game on one credit, and credit-feeder is suckerz" ?

Like SWY said, games is just for fun.

[Shepardus]

Well, some games do lock away content if you use continues, so in those cases yes, the game really is saying you must beat the game in one credit.

[Blinge]

Edit: got names mixed up because of a hyphen.. copy-paster you can't argue with the glossary..

In most players’ opinions, to 1CC a game is the only “real” way to be able to say that one has “beaten” it. Additionally, in most situations, to “officially” one-credit a game, a player must do so with the game on default settings.

I don't wish to derail the thread any further however.

Bananamatic, what's your angle on this? I get the impression you'd like the whole community to raise their game, so to speak..

[ProjectAKo]

I'm done trying hard. It's casual from here on out.

[Icarus]

I get the impression you'd like the whole community to raise their game, so to speak..

He's not the only one.

[Cagar]

I get the impression you'd like the whole community to raise their game, so to speak..

He's not the only one.

Agreed hard. Think about how interesting this place could be if people played the games they discuss. (On a non-credit-feed level)

[Squire Grooktook]

I learned a long time ago that I'm really just not a competitive person. I like to play these kind of games for a sense of tension and excitement, but winning or being good at them is really just an afterthought/bonus/icing on the cake to me.

Same with fighters. I just aim to be good enough so that I can get some fun matches in with friends at a similar skill level. I have absolutely no interest in getting good enough to be at evo or become a tournament champ. Or moving beyond that close knit circle. Not really a "community" person either.

For serious discussion, I'm more interested in BIL or Special World's kind of "why you should be playing this game" analysis then anything strategy related.

I am working on a few games for score (Rayforce, Cho Ren Sha, maybe Eschatos and Dangun eventually, the latter is quickly moving up my favorite games list), but even then it's more for the "experience" then any desire for replay-ability (already replayable enough IMO), or competition.

I'm really just here because:
1: Like some of the people here.
2: Good sources for news on the genre.
3: Discover new games.

Tl:Dr: I'm casual as fuck. Probably always will be. It's my way of life.

[Special World]

I suppose when I think about it, there are two possibilities:

1) Many of the 1CCers and high-scorers are just naturally more gifted than me (unlikely, and I think believing this would be doing you guys a disservice)
2) You guys have just spent massively more time and effort than I have

If 1, then it's not worth spending the incredible amount of time it would take to clear any moderate+ difficulty scrolling shooter; an amount of time you wouldn't be able to appreciate as somebody who naturally has skills in these games. For example, it took me a hundred(or multiple hundreds of?) hours to 1CC Futari Black Original, which is one of the easiest clears in modern shooters.

If 2, then I don't have the time and inclination to spend that much sweat and energy on a game. It's not like I'm a super busy person, and I'm not making any excuses for it. It's just not worth it to me to spend any more time than *I actually want to* to play a game. I'm not in it for glory, I'm in it for fun. No, those aren't mutually exclusive. But if I'm not having fun with a game anymore, I'm not going to push myself harder to clear it. I'll come back to it later, when I'm ready, and hopefully at least retain some of my skills.

That being said, I'm a lot better at these games than I used to be. Maybe if I continue to play, one day I'll be at the point where clearing Dodonpachi et al won't be an insurmountable task. I think I owe some amount of this accumulated "general" skill to the fact that I'm playing different games. For example, Zanac and Zanac Special are just incredible games to gain general shooter skills on, as they have randomized enemies and patterns that make for very solid core skills. Not to say that I wouldn't be better off sticking with one game, but... well, that's just not a draw for me. Maybe one day when I have the money to spend on a Futari Black cab, I'll have the drive to practice in 360 and on the cab and finally 1CC Maniac and maybe one day God mode. But that still entirely rests with how much fun I'm having. Having played Espgaluda 2 on a cab, I know it can make all the difference for how intense a game feels. Maybe one day.

1CC list so far: Futari Black Original, Deathsmiles, Deathsmiles IIX, Eschatos Easy, Harmful Park Easy, Crimzon Clover Novice Boost

[Squire Grooktook]

But if I'm not having fun with a game anymore, I'm not going to push myself harder to clear it. I'll come back to it later, when I'm ready, and hopefully at least retain some of my skills.

Yeah pretty much.

I'm not gonna say something like "I play for fun", since every body plays for fun. More that I'm completely content playing games semi(?)-casually. Others aren't, and enjoy taking things to a high level, and of course I respect that. It's just not for me.

For an example, Ghouls and Ghosts is one of my favorite games of all time. I 1 life cleared it, and that felt amazing. What's next? I could try speed running it, but I don't enjoy that hardcore routing at all or the competitive factor. So I just revisit it every few months, and always find it fun as fuck. The game is random enough that the 1cc is always in question, let alone the 1lc, so I never feel like I'm just going through the motions.

[Special World]

Oh definitely. I'm sure many competitive players play for fun, and nothing's more fun than striving toward the 1CC or a new high score. But for me it's not fun to bang my head against that wall forever, or endlessly puzzle out what's going wrong. It's fun to play a game and then maybe it's not so fun to play a game.

I'm also sure many superplayers have that moment where they *hate the game* and it's something other than fun that drives them past that special type of misery. But, for the most part, that's not me. At least not with scrolling shooters.

[Squire Grooktook]

I really just like playing for survival for the most part. I racked up 10+ 1cc's this summer (including one for Rayforce, favorite STG ever), and I really enjoyed experiencing the patterns and mechanics and the excitement. There are a few where I think the scoring system opens up some fun things I like to do, but for the most part I only really care about survival and making it to the ending lol.

I'm returning to Armed Police Batrider (Advanced Course) for a second 1cc, but only because I want to kill the fuck out of all those awesome secret bosses. That I'll have a score to post on a forum afterwards is a "oh...that's kinda nice too." kind of thing.

[Gamer707b]

I also mainly play for survival. Another thing is that I enjoy playing many other genres like rpgs, action, and stealth games like Mgs. I just don't have the desire to rip these shmups apart with months of dedication per game. I have WAY more fun playing them casually, although Ive always admired those that can be really good at the shoot em up.

[Special World]

I actually do play for score a lot—but that's only against myself, considering I can't 1CC most games. I'm happy when I beat my own score, and I'll explore strategies that will increase my score, but it's not like I'm pushing for [x] new high score.

[Eaglet]

I get the impression you'd like the whole community to raise their game, so to speak..

He's not the only one.

Thirded. This is unfortunately the major reason as to why the community isn't as thriving as it could be.

I suppose when I think about it, there are two possibilities:

1) Many of the 1CCers and high-scorers are just naturally more gifted than me (unlikely, and I think believing this would be doing you guys a disservice)
2) You guys have just spent massively more time and effort than I have

Have you thought about the third possibility that people who struggle with these games (for a "low" level clear or something similar that is, all high level play is a struggle) simply haven't worked out a proper practice mentality and regimen? I believe that anyone can succeed at these games given the right mindset and "toolbox".
It is as with anything that requires skill and some amount of dedication; proper practice is mandatory if you want to reach another level and not constantly plateau.
Granted, knowing how to practice is also a skill that is usually earned after dedicating a large amount of time in pursuit of some sort of skill. I got my understanding of what it means to practice from playing guitar and practicing 8+ hours a day when i was a teenager. With my current knowledge i'd get the same quality of practice as those 8 hours when i was a teenager in 45 min today.
There are many ways to go about it but having an analytical mindset and constantly looking for ways to improve your route, efficiency and of course getting better consistency of success in the parts that you struggle with is pretty key and basic. Shmups are nice in that way that there is a very clear way of seeing when and what you're failing at in most cases.
This is why save-states are great. If the entire game is a breeze aside from some specific parts that constantly fuck you over; just practice those parts until you can consistently clear them.
I only play on hardware though so i don't use them myself, but i'd definitely improve much faster in stricter games (DDP, Ketsui etc.) if i used them.

In short; learn how to practice and any clear should be possible with moderate time invested.


edit: Just yesterday I got a reminder of how important focus is as well. Haven't played much at all these last months but popped in Futari God Mode for a lil' credit. Had some onlookers and managed to get my second clear quite easily (1miss before Larsa). Some amount of outside pressure helps me focus more easily. This is probably one of the areas i should strive to improve the most in personally. Make the absolute most out of every run i attempt and keep consistent focus regardless of outward circumstances.

[Zaarock]

edit: actual answer to OP: hellsinker for me. came back to it so many times that the patterns are just stuck in my memory

Scoring really depends on the game for me. If the game is an easy clear or really focused on scoring mechanics then I try to score from an early stage. If the scoring is fun and adds to the game I keep going until I get a score that I feel meets my limits or get burned out.

Plenty of games have a large focus on scoring mechanics in level/weapon design so going for personal best scores can be a lot of fun especially if survival is easy (say Revolver360 Re:Actor, Ginga Force score attack). Level design in really scoring-focused games like Ikaruga barely make sense if played only for survival.

TBH I usually to lack the focus to concentrate on a single game for months. If I pick up something new I tend to go really hard on it, usually causing me to quit it early.

If the farm is to raise their game I think one way is to have much more sharing of routes and notes in the strategy board so new players can easily pick off from what previous ones learned. Even if players don't put in a ton of time they can improve very quickly if they learn from each other's gameplay. Most of this discussion seems to be happening off this forum or just via watching replays. There might not be interest in routes for the game you're playing but chances are someone will try it in the future. Garegga/Bakraid/Batrider seem like a great example of good strategy discussion here.

[DestroyTheCore]

I also mainly play for survival. Another thing is that I enjoy playing many other genres like rpgs, action, and stealth games like Mgs. I just don't have the desire to rip these shmups apart with months of dedication per game. I have WAY more fun playing them casually, although Ive always admired those that can be really good at the shoot em up.

This. Not all of us are men-children with enough free time and fixation for 1CC's.

[Legendary Hoamaru]

People need to recognize that most of the time they die it's because they aren't familiar with the level layout. Yes, execution is still necessary, but it's much easier to execute when you know what's coming compared to when you don't. Same applies to rhythm games.

I only play 1-2 hours a day with some days skipped since I split that time with other games (miku steals my soul sometimes). You don't need to do full time shifts to beat these games, just consistent practice so you remain familiar and reactive.

[Eaglet]

This. Not all of us are men-children with enough free time and fixation for 1CC's.

This kind of toxic attitude is precisely what is NOT needed in the community thank you very much.
You're just trying to excuse your own failings by making a strawman out of what you see as the opposition. Pathetic.
If you don't want to get good, fine, but don't whine about it.

On the topic of time spent playing; i usually don't play more than 4 hours a week nowadays.

[STG4WD]

Unless you're a "true hardcore" shmup fan, beating it via one credit is personal honor. But hey, is there any rules to "must beat the game on one credit, and credit-feeder is suckerz" ?

Like SWY said, games is just for fun.

It was this interview with MON (The guy who beat DOJ Death Label) that really made things clear for me:

In the end it was like a puzzle, where I made as many routes as possible that would minimize the need to actually dodge.

Once you see them as a kind of movement puzzle where you have to work out the optimum place to be all the time, they make more sense. It's also how you come to understand them like other games that take 10s or 100s of hours to complete. Calling them 'bullet maze' instead of 'bullet hell' games is also instructive.

The depth is in there!

[Bananamatic]

i play like 2 hours a day at most too (and that's during holidays, i haven't really played at all last semester)

you really don't need huge grinding for a 1cc compared to scoring, and unless you're going for a 2-all or futari ultra you can afford to make plenty of mistakes and bomb a lot of stuff too
hell, you don't have to optimize anything for survival, if it works even with minimal score gain just let it be and move on

protip: if you're playing saidaioujou, bomb the st3 midboss (forget about the lv10 hyper nonsense, you'll get both extends anyways), bomb the st4 boss 1st form even twice if you have to and same for the st5 midboss and st5 boss 1st form

people can't 1cc sdoj because they keep trying to dodge stupid shit even i wouldn't attempt under any circumstances

[Icarus]

On the topic of time spent playing; i usually don't play more than 4 hours a week nowadays.

I haven't played anything STG-related since mid-June. Lately it's been FFXIV and rhythm games.
I don't think I've lost that much though - the benefits of a lot of experience is that I can play more sporadically and still have maybe 90% of my capabilities available. This idea people have that you require months of hard grinding to get even slightly decent is ridiculous. Besides, the breaks taken are just as important as the long sessions.

[CWM]

I get the impression you'd like the whole community to raise their game, so to speak..

He's not the only one.

Thirded. This is unfortunately the major reason as to why the community isn't as thriving as it could be.

I think that's confusing the chicken and the egg here, so to speak.

Squire Grooktook spent a whole post explaining how he's not competitive and therefore doesn't feel the urge to chase high scores. Well, I'm rather competitive. I was a pretty decent (for an amateur) Stacraft player for many years, and I've actually competed in tournaments for several different games, like Quake 3 for instance, both video and various levels of physical. I don't know yet if I want to be competitive when it comes to shmups specifically, but the potential is definitely there.

However, people like me, or you, or Icarus (and to be perfectly clear I'm not comparing general stg skills here, but competitive drive) will always be a small minority in any given community. For example, people who "try hard" in Starcraft 2 would probably be the Master and Grandmaster league players, who accounted for less than 2% of the total playerbase last time I checked. It's logical when you think about it - willingness to dedicate a lot of effort to a particular games emerges as a combination of many factors, and is therefore not very common.

My point being, best way to have more competition is to broaden the community in general, and people with the potential to "try hard" will naturally float to the top eventually. Easier said than done, I know, but what definitely doesn't help is trying to shame players without that competitive inclination into competition by implying that they're somehow inferior because of the way they like to enjoy these games.