Why don't you try hard?

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Cee
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Cee »

DestroyTheCore wrote: This. Not all of us are men-children with enough free time and fixation for 1CC's.
Keep your excuses for yourself, all it really takes is consistency and good time management to get good the same with all hobbies and interests and that is achievable for pretty much everyone. Even 1hr a day of consistent thought out practice will have you 1ccing a number of titles in little time. If you're going to play anyway why not make it worth whilst? the fun of a great progressive run following the work will always out weight the mediocre enjoyment some seem to derive from just wanking about in a game forever at the same level.

Icarus wrote: This idea people have that you require months of hard grinding to get even slightly decent is ridiculous. Besides, the breaks taken are just as important as the long sessions.
This very much.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Some-Mist »

I get burnt out by my obsession. I spent a couple months with progear every day for at least an hour a day. took a couple month break. went back and within a month got the 1-all. immediately focused on the loop requirements, and after a couple months burned myself out again. started focusing on mfbla and got the 1cc in original and maniac within a few days, spent a few weeks on god mode till stage 3, and now focusing on score (first 400m, then 500m, now 600m) + the 100k overall multiplier in original.

burnt myself out again though and playing rocket league until I get the itch again. the good news is, I do even better after my extended breaks. can't do any blindfolded though.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Tregard »

Eaglet wrote:...simply haven't worked out a proper practice mentality and regimen?
Regimen? These are games we're talking about. You know, fun.

That's my opinion of course. Who is right here? Neither of us! Both of us!

Arguing that the community is suffering because there aren't enough people "taking it seriously" is absurd. We should embrace everyone who takes an interest in this genre, regardless of how they approach it. I'm a middle aged family man with a tough job and I just don't have the time or inclination to 1CC anything. But I have a collection of shmups and like to think I'm playing my part in keeping the genre alive. I don't appreciate being labelled as "part of the problem" because I'm not willing to turn my hobby into something resembling work.

Not really aiming this at you Eaglet, just throwing it out there while semi-drunk.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Eaglet »

Tregard wrote: Regimen? These are games we're talking about. You know, fun.
Have you ever worked at mastering any sort of skill? If you had, you would know the importance of purposeful practice with regularity.
This is true for pretty much anything and for those of us who wish to exceed ourselves, the work in and of itself is a great part of what is fun!
If shooters didn't have depth enough that i could still be practicing and playing a specific game after four years and still improve in noticeable ways i wouldn't have started playing them in the first place.
Tregard wrote: Arguing that the community is suffering because there aren't enough people "taking it seriously" is absurd. We should embrace everyone who takes an interest in this genre, regardless of how they approach it. I'm a middle aged family man with a tough job and I just don't have the time or inclination to 1CC anything. But I have a collection of shmups and like to think I'm playing my part in keeping the genre alive. I don't appreciate being labelled as "part of the problem" because I'm not willing to turn my hobby into something resembling work.
A community thrives and develops when there is interest and activity concerning whatever its' specific purpose is.
If more players start getting more in depth with the games we'd see greater discussion, exchanging of strategies and a great raise in what the average level of players is. This is why there are so many top level japanese players. Because they have their arcade culture. This forum could be an online replacement for that but there are unfortunately only a small number of individuals as it stands right now that would make the effort. Not putting down anyone who wouldn't but it's sad seeing what could've been with more interest in the games themselves.
It's quite logical really; more activity and more interest equals a flourishing community. This is just what i believe but i think a community more centered around the games themselves and what can be done with them would be more attractive to people from similar communities (FGC (ugh), music game players, speed runners etc.).
Elitistic toxicity (like what you see in the FGC) is something this community doesn't have anything of so far and i think that's one of its biggest pros.

This is not about labelling specific people as a "problem" but more of a challenge for people to step their game up in order to improve the general level.
I'm sure most proficient players would be welcoming and very glad to help out.
CWM wrote:
I don't think the numbers in that comparison is that fitting to be honest. To tell you the truth i don't have any experience with modern competitive PC games but i can only imagine that what's required of you as a player to make it to that upper echelon is much more demanding than what it is to get to a "competitive" level at most shmups.
I think the major issue is that a lot of people seem to make stuff like 1CC's out to be a much bigger and harder accomplishment than what they are. Trouserplankisms if you will.
The general sentiment among a lot of casual players seem to be that you have to be a high level autistic without a day job and any other hobbies that plays the same game days on end in order to accomplish anything worth noting.
This is simply not the case. Most mid-level shmups can be 1-ALLed with up to a month of consistent play (a credit a day) if you know how to practice.
As with anything it gets a lot easier the more experience you have.
Last edited by Eaglet on Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
moozooh wrote:I think that approach won't get you far in Garegga.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

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Tregard wrote:I'm a middle aged family man with a tough job and I just don't have the time or inclination to 1CC anything.
Ok so what exactly do you have time for? If you have any time to play at all then you have enough to 1cc a game... that's kinda the point dispelling this misconception of time investment required to become competent in this genre I mean it really doesn't take that much to 1cc a good deal of games especially if you aren't even touching the scoring. If you're saying time and inclination are an issue for you then why even play at all?
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

I do just want to confirm here that once you've built up some decent fundamentals and an eye for spotting areas that need to be practiced, a 1cc or even a solid score is not that time consuming at all (although obviously it depends on the game). A few credits a week can really blast a lot of moderately difficult games out of the water.

My original posts last night was more aimed at things like "why aren't you aiming at a wr/2-all of doj white label/best in da world".
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by mamboFoxtrot »

Blinge wrote:
mamboFoxtrot wrote:cuz I'm a scrub who started playing stgs a few years ago and has only gotten past the first third of, like, one whole game and has never seen 100% of any shooter I've played. That and I have the memory of a newt anyways
^
Pick game. play (at least) one credit a day, every day for months, report back?
Just giving a game one or two goes in a day is how I usually play STGs, it's just that I was playing new ones constantly as I bought them, and recently just haven't been playing much of anything at all. I've been putting most of my free time into other hobbies.
Whether or not I could 1CC a game before burning out on it is another question all together, though. FWIW, I did make it to Stage 6 of Akai Katana's Slash and Climax mode several times, but it'll probably be a while now before I want to return to it.

Weirdly enough I've never used practice modes or save-states. Couldn't really tell you why, but I just don't want to use them.
Squire Grooktook wrote:I learned a long time ago that I'm really just not a competitive person. I like to play these kind of games for a sense of tension and excitement, but winning or being good at them is really just an afterthought/bonus/icing on the cake to me.
Pretty much, yeah.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Gamer707b »

Wow! This playing casual or 1cc thing became a big topic. As I said before, I personally admire and appreciate guys like Clover-Tac and many others. Even those of you here. But I just don't have that level of dedication and desire to "master' these games. I love playing too many genres. I will say though, is I am proud to own some Saturn shooters, games like Axelay( love that game) etc. Much props.
Last edited by Gamer707b on Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Special World »

What do you do if your chosen game doesn't have a practice mode or savestates
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Eaglet »

What everybody who doesn't play on a computer or console does; practice efficiently during runs. If you're not able to 1CC, credit feed to familiarize yourself with and practice later parts.
moozooh wrote:I think that approach won't get you far in Garegga.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Gamer707b »

Hey Eaglet, are you from Swerige?
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

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Yes, jag är från Sverige. :)
moozooh wrote:I think that approach won't get you far in Garegga.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Save states are the best though. I usually only use them as a last resort for practicing sections I think are outright not-possible or nearly-impossible on improv/routless play, but there's really nothing like them for getting down a section. Can shave days of practice time off in just an hour or two.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Shepardus »

Special World wrote:What do you do if your chosen game doesn't have a practice mode or savestates
Either credit-feed or just get good enough at the early parts that you can reach the later parts more consistently and either practice it like that, or if the game allows, stockpile resources to tank through the lategame. That's pretty much how I've played Touhou and Cho Ren Sha (Touhou has stage and spell practice but I don't often use it for practice). Savestates and practice modes are more efficient but it's perfectly possible to get at least decent at a game through occasional play through the regular game mode. I don't even play Cho Ren Sha frequently (once a week at most, often less than once a month) but that's been enough for me to go from stage 3 being a special occurrence (back when I first started playing 5-6 years ago) to regularly reaching 3-0 (still haven't 2-ALL'd yet though...), and most of those years I wasn't even playing shmups, let alone playing them "seriously." Granted, Cho Ren Sha's not the most difficult game out there and I'm not even that good at it now compared to others but my point is that occasional play through the main game mode can still get you good enough to clear and maybe score well eventually, even if you suck at it right now. Going through dedicated practice "regimens" can speed the process up but it's not strictly necessary, same with allocating a lot of time to the game. What's most important is your own desire to master the game you love. That can be hard though when there are so many great shmups that are immediately enjoyable even if you're not good at them - that aspect of shmups is both a blessing and a curse.
Last edited by Shepardus on Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

What's most important is your own desire to master the game you love.
Yeah. When a good game grips you and you feel the desire to really learn it in and out, it's like mastering a wonderfully complex bullet-laden dance with improvisation thrown in when you go off-step or at difficult parts.

If you want to really clear difficult games or get truly massive scores, you really need to get in this mindset, but the satisfaction of pulling off something you've worked hard to achieve is worth it.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:but the satisfaction of pulling off something you've worked hard to achieve is worth it.
This is probably where I diverge from a lot of people with games.

When I clear a difficult game or make some sort of achievement, the sense of achievement is kinda nice for maybe...5 minutes to an hour, then it's gone, and it wasn't the best feeling anyway. To be honest, if that was all I took from the experience, I wouldn't care to play shmups or most action games at all.

What I really play these games (and other types of games like fighters and whatnot) for is the moment to moment sense of excitement during the game, not any minor or fleeting sense of satisfaction when it's over. The sense of achievement from actually winning is a minor bonus that doesn't really matter to me that much. For me, it's about the journey, not the destination.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

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Special World wrote:I'm also sure many superplayers have that moment where they *hate the game* and it's something other than fun that drives them past that special type of misery.
I can't speak for others, but in my case during the dark days of chasing the Caladrius Default leaderboard #1 spot I did eventually find myself here. I was no longer playing for fun. I was playing for vengeance, for glory, and for blood. All I knew was I wanted that spot, a primal desire that fueled me to crush all that stood in my way. When I finally hit my perfect run I laughed like a madman consumed by battle lust. I wasn't happy, just... finished; Free...

I actually try hard-ish at most of my arcade games, but WR hard is a kind of different realm I think. I never went into Caladrius with the intent of going that far. But at some point the game took hold of me, and my mind cracked just a little. I found myself playing from sunrise to sunset on weekends, barely stopping to eat. I'm not even sure if it's something you could ever really want. It just happened.

I'm also not sure I play shmups in general for fun. I'm not sure what drives me other than sheer stubbornness and a furnace fueled by salt. The process is often fun, but even when it's not that won't stop me if I'm truly set on killing my prey. There is satisfaction in the hunt, and I think I prefer satisfaction to "fun".
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

ACSeraph wrote:There is satisfaction in the hunt, and I think I prefer satisfaction to "fun".
Yeah can confirm I'm the opposite here.

I think there have been a few games where I did something similar to what you described, but to be honest I look back on those achievements as wasted time (and felt that way at the time too), and now vow to never do such a thing again. Casual for life yo.

Also updated my sig with a 1cc list, since I'm making myself out to be quite the casual here, but I do play things to win other then ultra easy mega drive shmups lol. Just really not into the experience you described above. On the verge of nailing Darius II, Dangun Feveron, and Battle Garegga atm (tend to juggle games).
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by ACSeraph »

^I've never really thought of you as a casual no matter what you say. You just have something different driving you that helps prevent you from falling down the rabbit hole completely. I can respect that, and I'm not sure that going "full shmup" would be a good thing for most people, myself included. But one thing is for sure: I am not regret!

I think the point of the "people should try hard thing" is that they should at least stop making excuses for why they can't clear. You can't clear if you aren't attempting to, that's for damn sure. And you Squire, are living proof that someone can be successful at the genre without being completely insane.

Shmups are literally games for people who like to try hard. That should be understood before you ever enter these gates. But there are different bars for trying hard in the genre, it's not just WR or Scrub. At the basic 1cc level, the bar is not nearly as high as people make it out to be. If you are trying and endlessly failing, I'm going to just go ahead and say you must be doing something wrong so you need to do research and refine your practice. And if the very concept of practice bothers you then go play Katamari Damashi for fucks sake. Shmups aren't only for savants, but they aren't for the lazy either.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by pegboy »

Honestly I wouldn't call anyone that actual plays SHMUPs for a 1CC (regardless if the game is "easy" or not) a casual. In my experience, true "casual players" don't know about or care about a 1CC, and they almost certainly wouldn't be on this website. On other forums I've been called a troll for saying that a 1CC is the way to play SHMUPS (and other non-SHUMPS like Contra or Ghost & Goblins).

True casual players absolutely do not get or understand the concept, and usual reject it entirely when it's introduced to them. These are the same guys who think Silver Surfer on the NES is literally the hardest game ever made.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

ACSeraph wrote:^I've never really thought of you as a casual no matter what you say...And you Squire, are living proof that someone can be successful at the genre without being completely insane.
Ha ha, thank you :D Also I agree:
ACSeraph wrote: Shmups are literally games for people who like to try hard...If you are trying and endlessly failing, I'm going to just go ahead and say you must be doing something wrong so you need to do research and refine your practice.
Totally agree. I definitely put my heart and soul into winning when I'm in the middle of a run, because caring about survival and victory (even if they're just the carrot at the end of the stick) is the only way to get a sense of tension and excitement, and creating that sense is what the whole arcade formula does best.

And yeah, having an analytical eye for what needs to be practiced is a fantastic skill. I do believe there are "fundamental skills" for shmups, fighters, and skill based games in general that can be improved over time and transfer between games and even genres. But those skills take years to build, so if you want to clear something without years of effort, it's best to learn how to analyze the battlefield. Spotting strategies for beating enemies more easily, or being able to identify what is nearly impossible without a plan.*

For example, when I reached Grubby and Discharge in Batrider, I knew immediately that I was not going to beat these guys within the next year if I didn't fight them with a plan. So I placed a save state, watched some replays, and learned the fights. This resulted in getting the clear within just 2 or 3 more days (and I almost never play more then 3-4 full credits a day).

Now on the other hand, Rayforce is very difficult but I find most of the enemy patterns "intuitive". Not much requires a route, and most of what kills you comes down to random reflex patterns. So for Rayforce, I didn't use a save state for any part of the game. Instead, I just played it "like an adventure" only one credit at a time, relishing the sense of discovering new areas. And I had the clear within about a week from the day I decided I was going to tryhard to 1cc it (same amount of time it took Batrider, roughly)**.

So basically, know your limitations, and play the game analytically, and you can probably make a lot of progress.

*
Spoiler
The same thing applies to fighters imo. If you want to get better, you can spend years playing trying to improve your fundamental reactions, execution, and reading abilities...or you can go into the lab and learn new techniques, combos, and resets that will give you a massive edge now while you improve those fundamentals in the mean time.
**
Spoiler
I had played these games quite a bit before 2 years ago or so, but that was much more haphazardly. It was only this summer that I resolved to myself "I love these games and I'm gonna beat them", and started playing them again after a long absence
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Gamer707b »

Hey Eaglet I don't speak Sweedish but I know the word Swerige . Cool language cool country. Im actually American from California.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

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Squire Grooktook wrote:Save states are the best
chempop wrote:also save state practice = cheating
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Might as well say that memorization is cheating then too. How dare you practice and learn the game!!!
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by chum »

I see two opposing stances prevalent here as well as well as quite a few people compromising, when I ask myself what I think, I find myself compromising too. There is no right or wrong, there is no reason why the average user should be expected to step up their game, but that's not important or difficult subject, what matters is more people doing so would benefit the community.

You (you) personally don't need to justify why you don't have the time or ability or motivation, because anyone with any common sense understands that time, ability, and motivation varies from person to person. There really is no need for this. If someone legitimately wants to git gud, nobody here will stand in their way, nor will anyone here be someone they should expect to rely on. STG is niché. Strategy guides are all well and good but when it comes down to it you need to work hard at the game you want to learn and understand all the nuances, for any game worth a damn, this can take a very long time if you factor in actually playing as well as understanding it. For most users I imagine this task is insurmountable due to the cheer difficulty of these games. Damn near everyone gives up by default whether they know it or not.

As someone who puts in several thousand hours of time on these games and plays a large amount on most days, no doubt I would be expected to blindly agree with what Icarus, Eaglet et al are saying. Generally I'm in full agreement and what they say makes sense, but I have my own point of view. Naturally I have my own skill level and experiences so I can't see through the eyes of someone else, such as someone who spent less time but got better, or someone who spend more time but is not as good, but I have been a casual myself at some point, so it's not like my experiences from that time have somehow dissolved.

"Time" and "Effort" and such things are not the be-all-end-all to improving. Many people assume that, if you just put in enough time, you will get better than someone who puts in less time. I'll tell you right now this is false. This is delusional and an egocentric point of view. People are not equal. A lot of people use this as an excuse for why they aren't good and assume they never will be. You're not only selling yourself short this way, but also reducing top level players achievements down to a mere timesink, even though competitive games have many, many players that invests enormous hours into them, fewer players still reach the top. Why? Think about that. Whether you call it better practicing, better mindsets, more smarts, or better ability, either way it reinforces the truth that people are not equal. What works for someone may not work for someone else. Find out what works for you, know yourself.

Moving on more specifically to what people are saying:
This. Not all of us are men-children with enough free time and fixation for 1CC's.
Although crudely worded and talking about 1cc instead of score as if 1cc is difficult, this is still something I firmly believe in. Not everyone has the free time or fixation. With less free time, that doesn't mean you can't get good in the long run, though. Someone who plays efficiently many hours every day for half a year can easily be on even ground with someone who plays only only a bit on weekends for 5 years. Fixation (drive, motivation, whatever) is still essential and as long as that's missing you'll be a casual. I said before that time spent is not all that matters, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. It matters a lot, but if there is a will there is a way. I know there's superplayers that play for a long period of time instead of every day.

A great start to the community "growing up" would be to stop fetishizing 1ccs. 1cc is a basic goal, that to anyone with basic ability, won't require a lot of work in most games. There's of course exceptions where even highly skilled players may need to sit down and learn the game properly and struggle quite a bit to 1cc (DOJWL 2ALL for example). A 1cc is generally a personal goal and milestone and understandably a satisfying achievement to many people, but fooling yourself into believing that most 1ccs requires big skill or time committment is laughable.

Just aiming this generally towards the forum, if you think this is elitist what I'm saying now then, if you're someone who thinks 1ccs are difficult and you actually have put in a lot of effort to get them, IMO you are doing something wrong. My advice would be to change your approach completely, play more games, get more serious, analyse your games, work on your reading and your movement. Eventually most games will feel like a walk in the park to just try to 1cc. And if you have no inclination to put in effort to begin with and thus don't have 1ccs then well I see no reason for you to be bothered.
What I really play these games (and other types of games like fighters and whatnot) for is the moment to moment sense of excitement during the game, not any minor or fleeting sense of satisfaction when it's over. The sense of achievement from actually winning is a minor bonus that doesn't really matter to me that much. For me, it's about the journey, not the destination.
This and being "hardcore" are not mutually exclusive. Of course, do the same thing over and over enough and that very excitement can easily lead to boredom and frustration, but make no mistake, at the core it is still an excitement. Pushing yourself and your game further and further is exciting in the moment-to-moment gameplay and not just when you get what you're after, because (pressumably) you would be playing a game that is, well, inherently exciting to play well. This is what good STGs are.
Honestly I wouldn't call anyone that actual plays SHMUPs for a 1CC (regardless if the game is "easy" or not) a casual.
I suppose there's different tiers of casuals. From my point of view damn near everyone here is a casual, but I'm not damning any one of you for it. I have other interests myself that I've pushed aside just to play more videogames, and some day I'll have to stop and only past that point will I know if I'm happy with how I spent my time.
This idea people have that you require months of hard grinding to get even slightly decent is ridiculous. Besides, the breaks taken are just as important as the long sessions.
From the general Farm perception, I would agree with you, it is a ridicuous notion. But even if it doesn't take months of hard grinding to be slightly decent, what about actually decent? what about actually good?
That being said, I'm a lot better at these games than I used to be. Maybe if I continue to play, one day I'll be at the point where clearing Dodonpachi et al won't be an insurmountable task. I think I owe some amount of this accumulated "general" skill to the fact that I'm playing different games. For example, Zanac and Zanac Special are just incredible games to gain general shooter skills on, as they have randomized enemies and patterns that make for very solid core skills. Not to say that I wouldn't be better off sticking with one game, but... well, that's just not a draw for me.
Playing multiple games is a good way to improve your skill level, generally better than playing just 1 game. Playing 1 game is more about being good at that 1 game, but this will require more basic ability. Broadening your horizons and playing more games can definitely help, but don't take them lightly, try to get serious, take improvement seriously, motivation and mindset is a big deal.
Cadrin
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Cadrin »

"If you don't have a single shmup where you can close your eyes and imagine playing the entire game 100% in your head, post here and tell me why - or tell me which game it is."

Well I indeed don't have a single shmup I'm that familiar with. I have been trying for Crimzon Clover WI on Unlimited to become that game, but it takes time.

I have my doubts: how much time do I want to spend on the game? How much is too much? Am I not neglecting other areas of my life? But at the same time, I want to get good at it.

I dunno, I have an addictive personality so I try not to overdo it and get burned out. At the same time I want to become really good, and so even though I can't 1cc the game mode, I play for score. Even though I can barely beat stage 1, I am really quite decent at it, at least if the ingame scoreboard is any indication.

So yeah, I spend about 4 hours a week playing CCWI, but every time I come back to the game, it feels like I'm making some substantial progress. I can see clearly the next breakthrough in my scoring "route", and that is making it to Stage 2 boss. Then I will practice said stage until my score in it becomes on par with the score I see in the DLC superplays. Then I will try to improve on that score if I can, area by area. Then I will move on to Stage 3, and so on.

I am fine with only playing that one game and game mode for a long while, because I don't own many shmups. It's a pretty fun puzzle to figure out. And the best part is: not many people seem to even attempt to seriously play the game mode so I don't have that many people to compare myself with and feel inadequate about myself when I come up short.

I'd also like to one day share some of my strategies with the Farms, but I have my reservations - for instance: am I good enough? I mean, OP of this thread is a freaking western world record holder for the game as far as I know (at least for Type-I ship), and he has a thread about the game in the Strategy section, although he didn't write much there. I hope it's okay for me to contribute.

Also I think this is the first time I post in a Shmups Chat thread that is not Hellsinker or Akashicverse. Hello, world.
To be continued. See you false memory syndrome...
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WizardYuuka
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by WizardYuuka »

I've played a bit of Touhou in my day...
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Bananamatic
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Bananamatic »

Cadrin wrote: I'd also like to one day share some of my strategies with the Farms, but I have my reservations - for instance: am I good enough? I mean, OP of this thread is a freaking western world record holder for the game as far as I know (at least for Type-I ship), and he has a thread about the game in the Strategy section, although he didn't write much there. I hope it's okay for me to contribute.
I was going to, but then the superplay DLC got announced with commentary and all, there is literally everything you need to know from players way better than I am for every single ship (plus I dropped the game some time ago for 2 different games anyways)
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Icarus
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Icarus »

chum <3

Cherry-picking from the text-wall a couple of quick responses:
chum wrote:A great start to the community "growing up" would be to stop fetishizing 1ccs. 1cc is a basic goal, that to anyone with basic ability, won't require a lot of work in most games.
I absolutely agree with this, and have even said as much on public channels. I never did understand the obsession with building the largest collection of 1CCs going. 1CC'ing a game - a 'scrubby' single loop clear at the least in multi-loop games, if we're making a distinction - isn't remotely difficult at all and only requires a small amount of intelligent, focused practice, and it doesn't really speak to the level of your abilities if you're panic-bomb-spamming and fumbling your way to the end.
The real meat of a game is found in taking its many systems and bending them to your will, and making the game give up all of its points while singing and dancing to your tune. Then and only then can it be considered that you've attained actual mastery of a game.

1CCs are nice things to have, but the journey with a game shouldn't stop there.
chum wrote:
Icarus wrote:This idea people have that you require months of hard grinding to get even slightly decent is ridiculous. Besides, the breaks taken are just as important as the long sessions.
From the general Farm perception, I would agree with you, it is a ridicuous notion. But even if it doesn't take months of hard grinding to be slightly decent, what about actually decent? what about actually good?
That depends. In my opinion, just getting to a level where you can give yourself a consistent chance to clear a game (or gain good distance in endless ones) takes only a small amount of time invested, if you invest that time wisely. Obviously some games are different (Pink Sweets, I'm looking at you), but for the vast majority of STG, this is applicable. Far too many people 'practice' with the wrong habits and mentality and wonder why, even after investing a significant amount of time, they can't progress. Playing for score is a small process of understanding how the scoring system works, and smart practice teaches you the best tricks to manipulate the system and where to cash in. It's really not that difficult if people think about it.

Can people really say they're practicing if all they're doing is picking up a controller and flapping their way through a game? Actually sitting down to do it properly isn't work like some people think, it's using your time correctly.
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Eaglet
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Re: Why don't you try hard?

Post by Eaglet »

On the topic of time/investment spent and proper mindset etc.:
What I, Icarus, chum and others have been talking about with having the right mindset, practice mentality and regimen/toolbox/way of approach/whatever you want to call it is a prerequisite in order to get good at any of these games. Only after that does time and effort factor into the equation.
All great players that i've personally met have a similar approach to these games and the only things that differ are the games of choice and time spent playing really.
One of the first things players have to learn when approaching a game is to balance risk. If your goal/milestone for the time being is a clear; use your resources for whenever you aren't able to handle a situation but try to perform in areas where you know that the risks aren't that high. This will give you more confidence in your ability and improve your understanding much faster than if you were to handle every part of the game in a similar way when you're learning.
Last edited by Eaglet on Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
moozooh wrote:I think that approach won't get you far in Garegga.
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