PVM-20M4E Price?

[LNZ]

I recently found a Sony PVM-20M4E 20" very close to me. The monitor has been recapped by a professional and calibrated they say. However, they seem to want 500€ for it. Im not totally up to date with prices etc, but it seems a bit to much for me. So anyone knows what a good price for a serviced PVM 20M4 is?

Thanks !

[Ed Oscuro]

You don't say who is offering the monitor, but it sounds like it's one of those semi-dodgy broadcast equipment companies that isn't with the times and is just hoping to sell their last units for a final windfall. The units are no longer in service or supported by the OEM with parts. Even if these monitors are a bit harder to find in Europe, it's not worth anywhere near that, especially as there are still likely to be some other monitors which are in good shape from not having been in use much. Recapping suggests to me that this monitor has been beaten into the ground, so the tube or other parts might be worn.

If you haven't already done it, look up classified ads, online for-sale ads, auctions, electronics recycling, and whatever other sources of ex-studio, university, medical, or other monitors you can discover.

In truth probably the broadcast / studio monitors are likely to include some of the worst units you can find, outside of airport terminals. They get used heavily for many years, often in bad environments, often with screen burn, and at least with somewhat worn phosphors from years of use.

I'd not worry specifically about finding a PVM-20M4 series monitor. Just search for "PVM" and "BVM" as well as any other top-end CRT makes you can think of (NEC, Mitsubishi, plus good European makes) and look into whatever you can find - so long as it has the RGBs input you need (over BNC or SCART) it will be fine; if you have a choice, look into something as new as possible. For example, the 20L2 series was used at laboratories and hospitals. It has a very simple chassis design with few PCBs, and units were manufactured recently. These might be found alongside other models such as the OEV-203 (Olympus rebrand of a M2MDU) or the 1943MD - both of those should be excellent as well. From memory, the M4 series has 800 TVL, while the 20L2 and probably all the other monitors I mentioned are 650 TVL of resolution. The 650 line spec is better than almost any consumer TV, and perfect for most retrogaming sources. Meanwhile, the 20L2 has a great three-line comb filter that makes even composite video look stunning. The M4 would be nice if you can find it, but so would a BVM - I wouldn't pay much of a premium at all for a unit whose only benefit is a slightly higher TVL spec, which is basically a number you can discount once it's at 650 TVL or so.

[kamiboy]

When it comes to finding exotic electronics such as this not every country is created equal.

Such things are rare as hen's teeth in scandinavian countries, so the above quoted price might be quite reasonable to avoid the hassle of having one shipped from another country in Europe.

Perhaps it would be best to consider the realities of the local market when considering acprice.

[LNZ]

Thanks for the input.
You are right that this is a local broadcast store with a "used gear" department. I actually called the guy, and he tood me that this PVM has been hanging in a hospital, and it has very little tube use, even though it has been turned on alot. As a noob i dont know how much that matters, but it sounded reasonable to me.
About the price. What would be a fair price for a monitor like this? I want to have something to tell him when i try to get the price down.

[spmbx]

Maybe 50eur max. They arent worth a huge premium over (sony) consumer tv's; you can find those free or for a tenner with hardly any use, abd the difference in quality is not big. Most important settings are in the service menu's so no problem

[Ed Oscuro]

50EUR would be an amazing price even in the US for that model (the slightly higher TVL does still command a slight price premium, at least in theory). I haven't seen this particular model on sale for less than $200 in the US, which is around 185 EUR currently. My current "reasonable" price for 15KHz 20" PVMs is around $150 USD. There are better deals out there if you can find them, especially if you don't look only for Sony or NEC products, but less than $150 is getting hard to find in the US, unless you do find somebody selling something at auction or old equipment in an informal sale.

In short I think 50 EUR would be setting the bar really high; you will waste too much time (and money) searching for that price and might never find it. 500 EUR is also crazy. In truth you should shoot for the middle, but good condition and low usage is the top priority over having a reasonable price.

[Xan]

500€ is too much in any case, it's not a mint NOS unit after all. If you can check the monitor out in person (by bringing a console with you, of course) that's what I'd base the proposed price upon.

Since you are in Europe I'd say any good consumer TV with RGB would be a great alternative. As good as PVMs are, their advantages can be easily offset by heavy usage/wear, and generally speaking it's really not worth paying through the roof for a flawed unit.

[nissling]

I live in Europe as well and, personally, I'd say if you cannot get a good reference CRT then you can might as well get an XRGB-Mini. In my opinion, the Framemeister outperforms every consumer CRT I've seen and the PVMs/BVMs are the only ones that are even comparable. But then again I'm very picky when it comes to picture quality.

Anyway, a fellow of mine recently bought a PVM-20M4E on eBay at €80 I think. That's great value for the money, but €500? Not so much.

[LNZ]

problem with XRGB and LCD TVs is the input lag it adds. That must be the main strenghts with CRTs overallt..

[nissling]

Input lag has nothing to do with display technology. Video processing is what matters. Also I'd like to say that the entire input lag dilemma is overrated by now. Finding a decent LCD with low input lag is very easy by now. Much easier than finding a decent CRT imo. I've got fellows who've beaten Battletoads with the XRGB-Mini and that says quite a lot.

[Xan]

Some people can adapt to input lag for sure, but for me the bigger disadvantages of the latter setup are the slower pixel response time and having to play games pillarboxed, which takes away some of the immersion for me. Typically the sides won't even be a deep black but grayish, especially on IPS panels with the dreaded glow effect. There are also issues with region modded consoles which aren't there on a CRT.

[Ed Oscuro]

In my opinion, the Framemeister outperforms every consumer CRT I've seen and the PVMs/BVMs are the only ones that are even comparable.

I feel bad for you. Even my Wega beats every LCD TV in every aspect except for power use, weight, radiation, and geometry (of course)...and it's only got YPbPr component connections. LCDs are worse in every other way, though, including durability (don't swat flies on the screen) and initial quality control (many screens ship with incurable defects).

OLED and (good quality) plasma screens look better for modern content but that is a different matter than traditional videogame sources. Any LCD can have a larger color gamut than a CRT, but this is also useless for gaming.

I think we are getting closer to having acceptable LCD screens, and good alternative panel tech would be promising (like OLED) but even then we have to deal with signal processing, instead of the simple and flexible scanline display method of CRTs.

Input lag...well, I can "adapt" to it, but it never feels right having the game a step behind my movement, especially where fast camera / character direction changes are concerned.

Input lag has nothing to do with display technology. Video processing

A real head-scratcher here. Why do you think there's video processing? It's due to the different display technology, don't you think?

In 2015 I expect that everybody knows that input lag is properly measured as the combination of video processing and pixel response time. It's why the directly-measured color patch method Leo Bodnar uses shows all screens with higher latency than would be suggested by video processing alone.

[Xan]

Well, if we want to split hairs I suppose technically there is processing on every digital/OSD-controlled CRT, which would include about all units since the early 90s; it didn't seem to have any noticeable effect on input lag though, at least until the framedoubling models came along.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's not signal processing. You'll note that, for example, the classic OSDs are quite simple and don't have any opacity settings; they are just overlays that block part of the RGB signal going to the CRT.

[Xan]

I wasn't talking as much about the OSDs themselves as the settings in them. As an example, in certain PVMs there is the adjustable "358 trap filter" for composite sources, do you think this is purely done by analog components? Likewise, I've heard about 90s Sony VGA monitors featuring circuitry to improve the often low quality signals of video cards back then. I'm sure the later flat FD Trinitron/Wega designs also heavily relied on DSPs.

Found this somewhat related post: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/230225 ... ?p=3087375

[Ed Oscuro]

Why would you single out OSDs (which are all digital in some respect, unless you're talking about some really, really ancient design with an early implementation, which would have been too cumbersome for consumer sets anyway - good old dials were good enough) when comb filters can be implemented on entirely analog designs? At the other end, there are plenty of sets with OSDs that do not have 100Hz (or similar) delay. The OSD has no impact on latency of the basic RGB signal by itself - sure, it's obvious that you can use it to control some minor latency-causing settings and I almost pointed it out, but thought I'd save the space.

On CRTs there's not much call for especially complicated signal processing that adds lag. Simple methods like comb filtering just require a delay of one scanline or so. If a signal is too weak, a simple lagfree gain control can deal with that.

I don't know much about signal processing and the reasoning behind it on modern flat panels, but it's clear that the entirely different technology has made some techniques common. We have motion interpolation because of the demand for multiple framerates on tech where designing real multiple framerate support has been difficult (hopefully this changes with all the development money going into adaptive sync). OSDs on modern sets seem a lot more complicated and perhaps it's simply cheaper to use a framebuffer method for mixing OSDs with the video signal, than using the old analog method for CRTs. There's also questions about signal processing methods for the display itself - not only are there a lot of little-known gremlins in panels themselves, such that individual column and row drivers might possibly have some need of signal processing, but I believe that color correction and backlight array controlling technologies look like they require processing before the signal is displayed. It might all be stuff that could be done in the old method, but again, perhaps a CPU + frame buffer allows everything to be done on one chip and with one set of software.

[LNZ]

Hey guys. I found a BVM D20F1E with 4000 hours for around 500€. Only thing is that it does not have a HD/SD board. What does this board do? Is it essential to have?
Thanks

[Ed Oscuro]

Again the price is rather high, but it is a BVM, so your choice really. One thing I'd ask somebody else to chime in on: That hours counter might have been reset. It doesn't sound bad at all, though you'll want to confirm it works well.

When you say it doesn't have an HD/SD board, I'm not sure what you mean. Does it have any input board currently?

You don't need an HD-SDI input board - that would be high definition (HD) serial digital interface (SDI) which isn't used by classic games. In fact this model doesn't HD at all, so you shouldn't have any HD input boards at all.

What you do want is an analog input board with RGBs - that'd be four input connectors labeled as red, green, blue, and ext (external) sync.

[Elrinth]

I got mine yesterday... Here's the result:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msq3vs4qkvQ

[LNZ]

Man thats the worst packaging i have ever seen. If you bought it on ebay you should be cleared for a total refund.

[bacardi]

Hey LNZ, you're still looking for a PVM? I have two for sale actually, much cheaper than what you have outlined in the first post

[Elrinth]

bacardi, I've got a friend who's looking for one aswell, I could hook you up if you'd like to. Depends ofc on how much you're selling it for.

[LNZ]

Thanks for the offer. But i actually bought the BVM-D20F1E with 4000 hours. I hope the counter has not been reset like suggested in this thread. It should arrive on pallet from germany in the comming weeks. im a bit nervous

[nissling]

The BVM-(D)20F1 is awesome. It's almost as good as a 15KHz CRT can get so even though the price was a bit high you'll most likely never let it go.

[LNZ]

Ihope you are right! What is the main difference between a 15khz BVM and a 31khz BVM anyway?

[nissling]

Got a 20F1 myself and it's an investment that will hopefully last a lifetime. 15KHz means that the tube draws 15 000 lines per second (or more precisely 15750). 31KHz draws twice as many line. 240/288p and 480/576i is 15KHz (525*30). 480p is 31KHz (525*60).

[LNZ]

I see you are also from Sweden:-) Congrats on getting hold of a 20F1 here
So is there any downside to my 31khz D20F1 compared to your 15khz 20F1?

Edit: I will mostly play my Sega Genesis on mine. Maybe some ps1. Those are both 240p. Will i suffer from not having a 15khz set then?

[nissling]

I got my F1 from Japan. Worst solution for one of the greatest monitors of all time.
It's the same tube. The D20F1 can natively show 15KHz among other signals so quality is the same but yours have wider compatibility which is very nice. Manual is available here.
http://www.alangordon.com/beta/wp-conte ... manual.pdf

[LNZ]

Very nice
Guess that makes the D20 equally as good as the non-D then?
Did you get yours shipped in a regular box? How many hours does yours have? Im so excited for its arrival! Will post pictures here when i get it:-)

[Ed Oscuro]

Darn I'm silly. Sorry for misreading your post LNZ! I ignored the "D" for no good reason. The D20 can accept HD signals up to 1080i30/720p60. It's not super useful for 720p because of the 4:3 aspect ratio and the relatively small size, but if you like 480p systems, it will display those signals nicely over YPbPr.

The non-D series 20F1 is just an older product in the BVM line. There shouldn't be any reason to worry about getting the newer version; it should be better in every way.