Question on CRT computer monitor

[Nug]

I have a NEC Multisync FP2141sb CRT monitor. I wanted to use it for my xbox 360 and dreamcast. I want to get the best quality picture from it, but am not sure what settings to use, or if there's some equipment (scaler etc) that I could get to a better picture. Anyone have any suggestions?

[RetroFixes]

You should be fine using the standard VGA cables. I know the dreamcast offers a few different VGA cables. Some with scanline generators and some without.

Also I would research your monitor menu options. Try different color temp settings etc.

[BazookaBen]

Use the Xbox 360 VGA cable and play in 1024x768 for most games. I noticed a lot of them have 4:3 modes that can render natively in that mode (Shadow Complex, Halo 3). Other games, like Ace Combat 6, you'll want to play in 720p and use the monitor's menu to shrink the screen to a 16:9 size.

That's the wonderful thing about PC CRT monitors, they can basically play any resolution you throw at them, with no scaling.

And the Dreamcast is good to go right out of the box, just play everything in 480p and it looks gorgeous.

[Nug]

I'm currently using the standard Microsoft vga cable for the 360. I noticed some games look great like Deathsmiles. Others like Pachi resurrection seem roughly the same, and Espgaluda and Futari looked worse. Not sure why this is?

[BazookaBen]

I'm currently using the standard Microsoft vga cable for the 360. I noticed some games look great like Deathsmiles. Others like Pachi resurrection seem roughly the same, and Espgaluda and Futari looked worse. Not sure why this is?

Are Espgaluda and Futari old-school 240p titles? If they are, you should run those at 480p, because that is perfectly double 240p and you won't get any funky shaped pixels or scaling artifacts. And of course you have to rotate your monitor 90 degrees and put the games in TATE mode.

[Nug]

I'm currently using the standard Microsoft vga cable for the 360. I noticed some games look great like Deathsmiles. Others like Pachi resurrection seem roughly the same, and Espgaluda and Futari looked worse. Not sure why this is?

Are Espgaluda and Futari old-school 240p titles? If they are, you should run those at 480p, because that is perfectly double 240p and you won't get any funky shaped pixels or scaling artifacts. And of course you have to rotate your monitor 90 degrees and put the games in TATE mode.

I'm not sure. They have the grey game case. Each game has multiple game types (xbox 360, arrange a, b, etc). I noticed the 360 versions look much sharper over their arcade counterparts on both the LCD and CRT

[BazookaBen]

I think I have the demo for Espgaluda on 360, and it's a vertical shooter, so you have to turn the monitor on its side, set the 360 to 480p, then set the Espgaluda's screen settings to TATE to get perfect pixel scaling.

[Nug]

I think I have the demo for Espgaluda on 360, and it's a vertical shooter, so you have to turn the monitor on its side, set the 360 to 480p, then set the Espgaluda's screen settings to TATE to get perfect pixel scaling.

I had no idea you can set the 360 to output 480p! I'll look into this

[BazookaBen]

I had no idea you can set the 360 to output 480p! I'll look into this

Yeah, it might be listed as 640x480. It's good for Original Xbox games and 240p games, but you want to use something higher for newer games.

[Nug]

I had no idea you can set the 360 to output 480p! I'll look into this

Yeah, it might be listed as 640x480. It's good for Original Xbox games and 240p games, but you want to use something higher for newer games.

So I got it running correctly. Games look much better now. One thing I did notice is all the cave games look crisper in xbox 360 game mode over the arcade mode. Is the resolution just higher on the 360 versions?

[BazookaBen]

So I got it running correctly. Games look much better now. One thing I did notice is all the cave games look crisper in xbox 360 game mode over the arcade mode. Is the resolution just higher on the 360 versions?

360 mode looks better in TATE at 480p? If so I don't know the answer to that. Maybe the remade the assets at a higher resolution than 240p? I'd have to check it out myself but I don't have the 360 hooked up right now.

[Fudoh]

Death Smiles, Futari and Galuda II have low-res arcade modes (original 240p assets). The arrange modes are rendered natively in 480p.

Muchi Muchi Pork & Pink Sweets are low-res only. All other Cave ports are hi-res only.

[Nug]

Death Smiles, Futari and Galuda II have low-res arcade modes (original 240p assets). The arrange modes are rendered natively in 480p.

Muchi Muchi Pork & Pink Sweets are low-res only. All other Cave ports are hi-res only.

This makes sense. Guwange must also be in 240p since the arcade mode is slightly pixelated too. I'm running the monitor in 480p. I guess for the 240p I'll need to dust of the CRT tv

[LordHypnos]

For the Dreamcast, I'd recommend downloading the 240p test suite (it will run in 480p), and set your colors, brightness, contrast, and stretch by that. Not really sure how you'd best adjust the color settings for the xbox 360, or even if you'd need to set colors seperately for seperate devices.

Also, I had no idea the 360 could output 240p. interesting.

[BazookaBen]

I'm running the monitor in 480p. I guess for the 240p I'll need to dust of the CRT tv

You're still kinda missing the point. What you want is perfect scaling and "square pixels".

So, say you're trying to play a 240p vertical shooter. First, you have to ask: what was the original orientation of the monitor in the arcade? Yoko or Tate? Usually, for vertical shooters, it was Tate, or in other words, on it's side. So now, where you once had a 4:3 monitor, you now have a 3:4 monitor. Where you once had a 320 horizontal pixels and 240 vertical pixels, you now have 240 horizontal pixels and 320 vertical pixels.

But you have a CRT computer monitor, and its minimum resolution is 640x480. Wait, that's perfectly double 320x240! So if you turn that on its side, you now a monitor that is perfectly double the resolution of the arcade game you're trying to play. So every line is perfectly doubled on the horizontal and vertical plane, which means every pixel from the original image is now scales to exactly 4 square pixels!

I explained that the best I can. That is why you need to rotate you monitor 90 degrees and set your Xbox to 480p.

If you try hooking it up to your CRT TV, it won't look right, because the Xbox doesn't output 240p. It only puts out 480i which looks blurry and flickers when showing 240p content. There are external devices to convert 480i to 240p, but that's a whole different subject.

[Ed Oscuro]

Where are you getting that a PC monitor can run 240p (480i) signals? Nug said the CRT TV is needed for 240p support, and that should be correct. Also totally unclear that Nug prefers scanline-free pixel doubled 480p over the original format.

[BazookaBen]

But you can't get 240p from a 360, only 480i, and his whole problem to begin with is getting games like Espgaluda to look good on his PC CRT.

So, without any extra hardware, his best bet is to run those games in 480p on his 360.



I use an Extron RGB to get 240p from my 360 but I'm not trying to confuse the guy more

[Nug]

I'm running the monitor in 480p. I guess for the 240p I'll need to dust of the CRT tv

You're still kinda missing the point. What you want is perfect scaling and "square pixels".

So, say you're trying to play a 240p vertical shooter. First, you have to ask: what was the original orientation of the monitor in the arcade? Yoko or Tate? Usually, for vertical shooters, it was Tate, or in other words, on it's side. So now, where you once had a 4:3 monitor, you now have a 3:4 monitor. Where you once had a 320 horizontal pixels and 240 vertical pixels, you now have 240 horizontal pixels and 320 vertical pixels.

But you have a CRT computer monitor, and its minimum resolution is 640x480. Wait, that's perfectly double 320x240! So if you turn that on its side, you now a monitor that is perfectly double the resolution of the arcade game you're trying to play. So every line is perfectly doubled on the horizontal and vertical plane, which means every pixel from the original image is now scales to exactly 4 square pixels!

I explained that the best I can. That is why you need to rotate you monitor 90 degrees and set your Xbox to 480p.

If you try hooking it up to your CRT TV, it won't look right, because the Xbox doesn't output 240p. It only puts out 480i which looks blurry and flickers when showing 240p content. There are external devices to convert 480i to 240p, but that's a whole different subject.

Thank you for the explanation. To clarify, I have an Xbox 360 slim. It has hdmi out, which works great on most of my games. Certain games look super grainy like some of the cave games which is the majority of what I play. My CRT monitor looks great with the fine scanlines etc, and I do set it on its side for tate games. The thing is some of the arcade modes (futari etc) still look a bit blocky which I assume is due to lower res format. I was thinking if I got the 360 component cables and ran them on my CRT tv, it would rectify the problem.

[BazookaBen]

. The thing is some of the arcade modes (futari etc) still look a bit blocky which I assume is due to lower res format.

if you're running Tate and 480p, any game that was originally 240p would technically look blocky, but the blocks (aka pixels) should look super sharp and all be the same size. If you were running 1024x768, it would look bad/blurry because not every pixel is scaled correctly. Some are larger than others, and not perfectly square. That's because 768 isn't a perfect multiple of 240. This isn't the case for 3D games, of course. Ikaruga probably looks best in 1024x768, because it wasn't originally designed with sprites and a 240p resolution.

By the way, if you ever have problems with your PC CRT, there's a great thread here with a lot of people share info about them:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=952788

[Nug]

[quote="BazookaBen"][quote="Nug"]. The thing is some of the arcade modes (futari etc) still look a bit blocky which I assume is due to lower res format. [/quote]

if you're running Tate and 480p, any game that was originally 240p would technically look blocky, but the blocks (aka pixels) should look super sharp and all be the same size. If you were running 1024x768, it would look bad/blurry because not every pixel is scaled correctly. Some are larger than others, and not perfectly square. That's because 768 isn't a perfect multiple of 240. This isn't the case for 3D games, of course. Ikaruga probably looks best in 1024x768, because it wasn't originally designed with sprites and a 240p resolution.

By the way, if you ever have problems with your PC CRT, there's a great thread here with a lot of people share info about them:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=952788[/quote]
Thanks for the link. Interesting you brought up ikaruga. It actually looks great. I think you've shed some light on situation. I think I may be expecting a bit too much. Even though the graphics are a bit blocky, they are super sharp. I'm going to try and find some vids of it running on original hardware and compare

[BazookaBen]

I'm going to try and find some vids of it running on original hardware and compare

Or hook up a SNES/Genesis to your old CRT TV (ideally with S-video). That will be a true 240p image. That is what old-school games are supposed to look like.

When you play a low res game on your PC CRT at 480p, it's basically that except every line is displayed twice. It's the next best thing.

[Nug]

I'm going to try and find some vids of it running on original hardware and compare

Or hook up a SNES/Genesis to your old CRT TV (ideally with S-video). That will be a true 240p image. That is what old-school games are supposed to look like.

When you play a low res game on your PC CRT at 480p, it's basically that except every line is displayed twice. It's the next best thing.

Gotcha. Would the picture quality benefit from an slg3000? Been looking at these and it seems to be an awesome piece of hardware

[BazookaBen]

Gotcha. Would the picture quality benefit from an slg3000? Been looking at these and it seems to be an awesome piece of hardware

With your Xbox 360, I'd say no. 480p on a PC CRT is already half black due to scanlines, so I wouldn't add more.

I think it's important for you to understand that the PC CRT is a rare beast. It is basically the only display device that can truly display multiple resolutions, and they don't make them anymore. If I were you, I'd try to avoid extra hardware as much as possible, and just let the CRT play the pure video signal.

[Nug]

Gotcha. Would the picture quality benefit from an slg3000? Been looking at these and it seems to be an awesome piece of hardware

With your Xbox 360, I'd say no. 480p on a PC CRT is already half black due to scanlines, so I wouldn't add more.

I think it's important for you to understand that the PC CRT is a rare beast. It is basically the only display device that can truly display multiple resolutions, and they don't make them anymore. If I were you, I'd try to avoid extra hardware as much as possible, and just let the CRT play the pure video signal.

Sound advice. I guess the slg3000 is more for modern tvs. Maybe I'll still get one for my living room. I'm really glad I rescued the monitor from my parents. It almost got recycled. Would have been a shame too, being such a large monitor.

[BazookaBen]

They are great monitors, I have a similar one (the NEC's use Mitsubishi tubes). If you wanted an LCD with similar color purity you'd have to shell out some serious cash.

But yeah, if you ever get an HDMI-only console, I can recommend an HDFury adapter: http://www.hdfury.com/. I use one with my PS3 and Wipeout HD looks stunning.

Also, PC gaming is your friend. Most PC games still support the old 4:3 aspect ratio, and even the ones tha don't can sometimes be hacked, like Far Cry 4. Plus there's the whole super high resolution thing. I can play Ikaruga at 2400x1800 on my 21" CRT.

[Nug]

They are great monitors, I have a similar one (the NEC's use Mitsubishi tubes). If you wanted an LCD with similar color purity you'd have to shell out some serious cash.

But yeah, if you ever get an HDMI-only console, I can recommend an HDFury adapter: http://www.hdfury.com/. I use one with my PS3 and Wipeout HD looks stunning.

Also, PC gaming is your friend. Most PC games still support the old 4:3 aspect ratio, and even the ones tha don't can sometimes be hacked, like Far Cry 4. Plus there's the whole super high resolution thing. I can play Ikaruga at 2400x1800 on my 21" CRT.

Cool. I've actually been wanting to play a little warcraft 3 lately. Might have to dig up the old computer. One thing I noticed on my CRT is that it has multiple USB ports on the side. Any clue what those are for?

[Xan]

Usually just a USB hub.

[BazookaBen]

Cool. I've actually been wanting to play a little warcraft 3 lately. Might have to dig up the old computer. One thing I noticed on my CRT is that it has multiple USB ports on the side. Any clue what those are for?

Yeah, that's just a USB hub to connect to your PC. It's only USB 1.1, so I wouldn't bother with it.

You should build a new computer one day so you can play stuff like this:

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag1 ... g~original

That's played on the 19" CRT I'm currently using.

[Nug]

Cool. I've actually been wanting to play a little warcraft 3 lately. Might have to dig up the old computer. One thing I noticed on my CRT is that it has multiple USB ports on the side. Any clue what those are for?

Yeah, that's just a USB hub to connect to your PC. It's only USB 1.1, so I wouldn't bother with it.

You should build a new computer one day so you can play stuff like this:

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag1 ... g~original

That's played on the 19" CRT I'm currently using.

Nice! What do you do for sound? My monitor has no on board speakers so I just leave the audio plugs on the 360 vga cable unconnected. I mainly want to use headphones, so can I just buy a some cheap pc speakers that have a headphone jack?

[BazookaBen]

I have an actual surround sound receiver with Hi-Fi speakers. If you're interested in headphones only, then yeah, you can just grab any set of cheap PC speakers. That's assuming they're not SUPER cheap and have a crappy headphone output. Another option is to get an actual headphone amp.