A Newbie point of view BVM/PVM/RGBRetrogames

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

I hope that this write up helps newbies like me before jumping into BVM/PVM and RGB retro gaming. A big Thank You! To all the people that researched the BVM/PVM/SCART cables/RGB moders. Without you guys, I would have not been able to enjoy playing my old consoles at their best. Thank you! guys.


In search of the BVM-20F1u

Went to Magfest13 and saw Turbographic 16/duo consoles connected to PVMs which I did not know what they were called at that time. The person in charge of the units told me that they were called PVM and to look at craiglist or hospitals that are upgrading their systems to get one. I went to craiglist, nothing, ebay, nothing local and they seem to cost a bit. I came across the article “In Search of Scanlines: The Best CRT Monitor for Retro Gaming” by Wesley Fenlon. Looked at the originally published date 2013 and was like, late to the party. I read and read and read the article and started searching for the BVM-20F1u since the article say that is the best monitor. The framemeister XRGB-Mini was not an option for me due to lag, the dark bar on TV, LCD etc.. Looked all over and could not find a listing not event on ebay for the BVM-20F1u. I started sending emails to ebay members that sold PVMs. One of the users replied ebay member savon-pat “Patrick” and said that he was about to list a BVM-20F1u. I dislike ebay for biding so I asked if I could buy the monitor from him. He told me to call him so I did. He asked me what I was going to be using the monitor for? To my surprise, Patrick knew more of what I would need for my retro consoles than I did. He told me how much it cost and the monitor’s history (hours used, repair done and that the monitor to quote Patrick “is Prefect” etc) over the phone. I asked Patrick to bill me via paypal and to insure the monitor due to all the horror stories of DOA monitors. From California to Virginia the monitor arrived without issues. The packaging was great, a lot of staff to protect the monitor. The box had fragile all over; I highly recommend Patrick. If you are looking for a monitor or specific model call Patrick and see if he has one or can find that model for you. Partrick also offered to help me set up the monitor, to give him a call. I did not feel comfortable calling Patrick because; I did not pay for tech support. I asked Patrick for the monitor’s manual and he sent me a link for the online version. The first console that I set up was my Omega NeoGeo MVS via component which looks great. The more I play with the monitor the more I liked it. Great monitor and so far it does feel “perfect”


I kept reading about BVM/PVM and I got a second monitor from Patrick to play PS2, xbox 360 and wiiu. I got a PVM-20L5 with a BKM-129x for second RGB. The PS2 using Component and Gradius 5 play and sound awesome. I highly recommend that game; got it from ebay.


In search for Perfect RGB NES

The NES is the greatest console ever made and if any one disagree with me then, well you are obviously wrong;). Prices for NESRGB are high and I understand why due to the cost. I looked at ebay and I looked at the NESRGB seller’s location and was like great. I found a person close to where I reside. I met ebay member vladv6666 and he showed me his setup. He showed me my FF famicom-RGB mint condition and we tested it. Great person and I recommend vladv6666 any time of the day. He also mod my SNESJr to RGB. Again, highly recommend him.


The elephant in the room – Aperture Grille wire.

If you are looking for NESRGB perfection the BVM/PVM that I purchase are close to perfection in my opinion but not there. The first time that I fire up the NESRGB, I noticed something that I have not seen on my other consoles. I have an OMEG Neogeo, SNES min, Sega Saturn, Genesis, PS2. This “thing” is what I will call it for now on the NESRGB also followed when I tested on the second monitor. I informed vladv6666 that there was something wrong with the NESRGB because I only see this” thing” on that console; to be more precise on the first level of super Mario and the over world of the legend of Zelda. I described what I was seeing and vladv6666 informed me that it was something called the grille wire which holds up the picture and to test it with 240_test_suite. I used the 240_test_suite on the SNES 2 and I could see the grill wire thing. On the NES, Mario and Zelda game I can only see one of the wire. It is really hard to see and you have to pay close attention to see it but none the less it is there. A picture would not show it because it not that apparent. Due to the grille wire is why the PVM/BVM is almost perfect for NESRGB. It is not a big thing but it is truly annoying seeing that on the monitor while paying. But to be honest, I take the grille wire over LCD picture and the black borders while playing NES from a framemeister XRGB-Mini which vladv6666 demo for me. What I am saying is, that it comes down to personal preference but something that you newbies should be familiar with. On the rest of the consoles I do not see or notice the grille wire.


Things that I did not know but you should be ready ahead of time if you are new to retroRGB..

BNC to RCA – Get those if you are using components to setup the consoles like PS2.. they are cheap on ebay Seller usefulgadget or 3 dollars each at Microcenter

SCART cables for the consoles – Get those from where everyone suggests, retro_console_accessories. She answered all my questions before I ordered the cables and she sent me a link to each SCART cable for my consoles.

SCART Cables for the BVM – Female BNC to SCART. Seller wookieewin

BVM instruction manual – google this and find out how to change the inputs

Speakers - I went to microcenter and purchased the Logitech z323 which works great.. the speakers have audio left and right in for the SCART female cable audio part. Microcenter has a lot of Logitech speakers but the z323 is the only one with audio left and right in.


To me the most confusing part was not knowing how the BVM connects to the console and get audio.

The BVM has BNC connectors ---- use the BNC to Female SCART cable - use the console NES SCART cable to connect to the console. The BNC Fame SCART cable also has two cables for audio left and right,, those connects directly to the speakers. In my case the z323. On the BVM you have to setup the input for RGB and external sync for the consoles if using SCART. If using Component then use Internal Sync. That is it, you are done.


What every newbie should be aware – the BVM/PVM that I purchased are 20” and might be small for your setup. I have a small space and 20” is perfect for me. I was gaming on a 20” TV that cost me $10 from craiglist.. if you are ok with the 20” size then you will be fine with this particular BVM or PVM. If not, get a bigger BVM/PVM. The second part that you should know.. the picture quality is great but it is not as if the game will be like Ultra- arcade-super-turbo-championship edition sharp quality. Have realistic expectations of how the games will look like. In my opinion the games look very sharp and worth every penny. The most important part, do the math and put everything together and you will figure out the cost of the PVM/BVM/RGB consoles setup. Newbies, I suggest this route first, $20 dollars 20” TV from cariglist and an old NES or whatever console you desire. Play on that for a while. If you find yourself spending a lot of time and enjoying the old consoles then move on to the next stage, PVM or BVM but be prepare to spend some serious dollars.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hi there, thanks for your story. Yours is pretty close to what I've seen for myself and from other people.

Pat Savon is a standup guy; I contacted him on eBay recently about a BVM. We couldn't do anything in that case but I could tell the knowledge and passion is there Pat's prices for servicing are quite good too. Definitely would be my port of call if I was in driving distance, in Southern Cal.

Some other ideas:

Sony and other manufacturers have made a good number of large-enough 480i CRT televisions with pretty good features. The cheap KV-27fs120 isn't the best TV in the world, but if you get a nice working example it will give great crisp images over its component (YPbPr) inputs. To get RGB working on that you just need an RGBs to YPbPr transcoder - and I keep hearing that the cheap boxes on eBay do pretty well.

For the NES, I actually don't think it's critical to get RGB if you have a monitor or television with a good comb filter, like the three-line (aka "3D") type. There will still be a number of artifacts from the video circuitry, but images will be pretty crisp and nice. For many later systems, the quality gap between RGB and even composite is smaller still.

Sony does have some older / different make monitors that are larger sizes, in which the aperture grille wire shouldn't be as evident. However many of these are getting to be too old (pvm 2530), possibly too heavy (pvm 2950qm), or all of the above and also too expensive and with unknown reliability (there are some stories about frequently needed tube replacements on the 16:9 D32 series), and of course the final pro broadcast / cine CRT monitor series from Sony, the A series (i.e. BVM A20) also reportedly have problems with some sources that older monitors don't. There are many other specialized options to look at, and there are excellent monitors from other sources. Lots of people talk about NEC, but there's also JVC, Ikegami, and Mitsubishi whose Megaview Pro monitors are both recent and full-featured enough to dust most of the opposition while being a good investment, without getting into obnoxious price wars like the recent laughable $500+ for an NEC monitor on eBay.

I don't think we're at the end of the cheap CRT monitor story yet, but we're getting there. I mainly wish people would look locally and stop shipping PVMs (especially PVMs which aren't built rugged enough for shipping) across the country, and then discovering that they've just reduced the CRT population and their time. The main source of monitors is going to be local recyclers / people who resell old equipment. So you don't necessarily go to the hospital, but you go to the people who get equipment from that hospital. Of course it doesn't hurt to make calls.

[Xan]

For the NES, I actually don't think it's critical to get RGB if you have a monitor or television with a good comb filter, like the three-line (aka "3D") type. There will still be a number of artifacts from the video circuitry, but images will be pretty crisp and nice. For many later systems, the quality gap between RGB and even composite is smaller still.

Can't agree with the last part, I find the NES composite signal much more acceptable compared to later systems because the dot crawl artifacts tend to be more or less stationary (and still don't seem to flicker as much during scrolling). I'm not quite sure about the technical details right now, but I believe the signal is pretty different from other systems. IIRC luma resolution is reduced, maybe that results in less crosstalk.

The NES relying on NTSC or PAL instead of RGB for its colors is another important factor - some games look flat out incorrect with the RGB palettes (but then again with wildly varying TV settings and even regional differences it's probably hard to imagine a real reference look for NTSC anyway). On many later systems there is a huge quality gap between composite and RGB, particularily those with usually very saturated colors in games, like SNES and PSX. Case in point: http://retrorgb.com/images/RGBMonitorsP ... 0Large.jpg

Regarding CRT size, never understood the common obsession with that, but maybe a lot of people are sure about never having to move due to life circumstances. Hauling a 29" CRT seems like a nightmare in any event, so I'm quite happy with collecting 14" PVMs and just sitting a bit closer while playing. These are still mostly 240p signals we are talking about, it's not like a monitor that size couldn't do them justice. What I'd see as problematic are the rather popular 9" portable models, but with shelves and constrained space I could imagine a setup where even those could be put to gaming use.

[mvsfan]

Ive moved a few times and I have a fullsize arcade cabinet. The first time i moved it it was hard.

but then i came up with the idea of building a frame underneath it and putting casters on it.

Now it rolls everywhere. I can just push it around the room when its in the way or i need to vaccum behind it.

large Crts are easily movable with a dolly unless you have stairs.

[cicada88]

Regarding CRT size, never understood the common obsession with that, but maybe a lot of people are sure about never having to move due to life circumstances. Hauling a 29" CRT seems like a nightmare in any event, so I'm quite happy with collecting 14" PVMs and just sitting a bit closer while playing. These are still mostly 240p signals we are talking about, it's not like a monitor that size couldn't do them justice. What I'd see as problematic are the rather popular 9" portable models, but with shelves and constrained space I could imagine a setup where even those could be put to gaming use.

I understand the need for a small CRT if you don't have a lot of space or if your living situation is short term, but I definitely understand wanting to go bigger than 14".

For one, if you are playing shmups, fighting games, or other arcade style derivatives, the gold standard is obviously an arcade cabinet. There is no way to sit close enough to a 14" screen to emulate a candy cab experience.

And that's honestly the good end of the spectrum. If you need to back up from the screen for 4+ multiplayer games, even 20" would start to be way too small.

[mvsfan]

the 27" trinitrons arent that heavy but I have a 32" and it weighs a ton. it requires a dolly or 3 strong people to move. i guess if you have stairs to go up it wouldnt be too practical.

Ive wanted to buy a 40" Xbr for a while but i cant get over having to move it. If the 32 is almost 300 lbs - whats a 40 weigh?

[Josh128]

I would like to add that the NTSC Sega Genesis, at least the North American version, probably benefits from RGBs output more than most other retro systems, with the NES coming in a close second, in my opinion.

For starters, there is something inherently wrong with composite output of the Genesis. It manifests itself as strange, visible distortion on horizontally scrolling sprites or backgrounds, almost as if the video output runs at a different horizontal resolution than 15KHz sets are capable of displaying properly. Because of this, at least to me, the Genesis never came close to looking as good as the SNES did (when running composite out on both), back in the day. These strange scrolling artifacts generally disappear / do not show up as much with black and white content, which leads me to believe its somehow caused by chroma interference in the composite signal, but it is not negated by comb filters. Ive used the old Genesis on many different TVs, including an early 2000's HD Ready Hitachi Ultravision Digital 31KHz CRT with a 3D Y/C comb filter, and it still exhibited the same distortion-- so the chroma interference must somehow must be different than it is in other systems, where it usually manifests as dot crawl or jailbars.

Second, the Genesis did not have S-Video out, as the SNES did-- I have almost been crucified for saying it, but S-Video is extremely close to RGBs for picture clarity when properly implemented. If the Genesis had been capable of S-Video output, it would have looked so much better back then, I would imagine. Also, the original model Genesis outputs RGBs BY DEFAULT- no modding necessary! The first time I connected a C Sync SCART cable to my Genesis and output converted RGBs to YCbCr to a large JVC 15KHz CRT, my jaw almost hit the floor-- crystal clear, colorful graphics with no scrolling distortion whatsoever. It looked as good as or better than SNES did on the same display using S Video.

The NES, on the other hand, always looked OK via composite on older 15KHz displays, but it did pack a TON of dot crawl, far worse than any other system Ive used. It looks absolutely terrible on most 720 and 1080p displays when using composite video.

In general, RGBs/YCbCr or at least S-Video are absolutely necessary for connecting retro systems to modern HDTVs. Ive found the SNES to be the most acceptable on my plasma with composite, but thats not saying a whole lot.

[Josh128]

Regarding CRT size, never understood the common obsession with that, but maybe a lot of people are sure about never having to move due to life circumstances. Hauling a 29" CRT seems like a nightmare in any event, so I'm quite happy with collecting 14" PVMs and just sitting a bit closer while playing. These are still mostly 240p signals we are talking about, it's not like a monitor that size couldn't do them justice. What I'd see as problematic are the rather popular 9" portable models, but with shelves and constrained space I could imagine a setup where even those could be put to gaming use.

I understand the need for a small CRT if you don't have a lot of space or if your living situation is short term, but I definitely understand wanting to go bigger than 14".

For one, if you are playing shmups, fighting games, or other arcade style derivatives, the gold standard is obviously an arcade cabinet. There is no way to sit close enough to a 14" screen to emulate a candy cab experience.

And that's honestly the good end of the spectrum. If you need to back up from the screen for 4+ multiplayer games, even 20" would start to be way too small.

Theres a saying in home theater that "bigger is better" and I definitely subscribe to it. Ive had two 36" CRTs and several 32"s and 27"s over the years and once you get used to having them, indeed it is very hard to go back to a smaller set. Without a doubt size plays a role in why I love my 51" plasmas so much-- it makes the gaming/movie experience that much more immersive.

Problem with CRTs is that they are incredibly cumbersome once you get to the 32" threshold, and the HD tubes of the same size are even heavier. My beloved old Hitachi Ultravision was so heavy it sagged my entire entertainment center, to the point where I had to add some support 2x4 pieces to help it out. It also required about 3 feet of clear space minimum from the screen to the back of the set!

My 51" plasmas, by contrast, weigh 39lbs!

[tacoguy64]

Great thread and I would also like to add some things to that as well.

As a newbie myself, and one that doesn’t have any RGB crt monitors yet, I found all of this very helpful in what to look for and expect out of these old monitors. Living in my region it is very difficult to find any of these old monitors. They hardly ever appear on craigslist or any of the recycling plants or the public surplus auctions. But down south there are a bunch of them appearing all the time. And they aren’t cheap for the most part. Recently I was able to get a BVM D20F1U for $300 (was being sold for $600), but I had to have someone do the whole transaction for me and hold it until I go down there later this month for some other business.

As of right now my retro console set up I am using the awesome XRGB mini and my 50 inch plasma and its working great. All of my consoles running through the mini look fantastic on my plasma. There is hardly any input lag and the picture quality is really good. I don’t think I would have been able to find the mini if it wasn’t for all the people that did all the research and wrote all those articles. Thanks for all the work.

Now as a person just getting into retro gaming, there is one big barrier that I’m finding and that is price. I only have 3 retro consoles at this moment, with a very limited library. It’s a very tough to find some good prices on some of these games. There are people all over on Craigslist that seem to always be on top of any good deals that they might come across and they are really quick to act. The local pawn places around here are usually picked cleaned of good games and the ones they do have are overpriced. And even the retro game stores around here usually charge a lot more than what you can get on ebay. Maybe I haven’t been looking at the right places, or something, I don’t know but getting these games today is more expensive than it was probably 5 years ago. And as someone who is recently getting into RGB retro gaming, the price barrier is getting to be a major turn off.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don’t know but getting these games today is more expensive than it was probably 5 years ago.

That's not going to get better.

You have to ask yourself whether getting the games is worth the trouble, or whether you're comfortable speculating that prices will go even higher (I can't see how many games won't get higher in price, but that could take a long time and money can often be invested better).

[tacoguy64]

I am very familiar with a collectors market from another game by Wizards called Magic the Gathering.

I've seen some crazy things happen to that game. Cards that I had that were only worth 5-10 when they came out, are now worth 60-70. The player base was a lot smaller back then, and Wizards does not reprint many of these popular cards that are used for competitive reasons. So with the small print run of these cards, more demand for these older cards, and Wizards refusal to make any impactful reprints,the prices just keep going up. I keep saying to myself there is no way it can keep going on like this that there must be some boiling point but so far its still going

I am seeing some of the same parallels with retro gaming. While there were a bunch of games that sold more than a million copies, there are a lot more that did not. And there are also way more gamers today than ever before. I also feel like we are at the beginning of the upward trend that I don't think will ever come back down from.

[Josh128]

About the price of retro gaming and the possibility of looking at it as an investment-- as of today it is indeed expensive (relatively, compared to say, 10 years ago) to pick up decent condition games from the NES to at least the PS1/N64/Saturn generation. 10-15 years ago, when Ebay was just starting to get rolling, Mega Man X2 and X3 and almost any Genesis or NES game could be gotten at less than a third of the prices they are going for today. Fortunately, Ive been collecting games since I was a kid-- but if I knew what I'd have to shell out for NES/SNES/Genesis generation games in just a few years, I'd have more aggressively purchased the games I missed out on, but always wanted to play. My purchases are few and far between these days, at least for the old gen games.

Now, the only "lots" you can buy at decent prices are games no one really wants to play. History tells that the absolute best time to stock up on games for a particular system has been about 3 to 5 years after the system becomes "obselete" or new games are no longer produced for it. Right now is the time to snap up PS2, GC, Wii, Xbox, and even DC games, as there are still some deals out there. Xbox 360 and PS3 are also very close to peaking on available deals.

In the early 2000's, when Ebay was just coming up, the deals you could get were unbelieveable. Those days are long gone now.

As far as looking at games as an investment, I dont and never have really looked at them that way. I just enjoy the nostalgia of playing the games of my childhood and the feeling of playing new (old) games I missed out on but read about in my old EGMs or Die Hard Game Fans (best VG mag ever made). I suppose if you keep your games and systems in pristine condition many of them will double or triple in value in the next 20 years or so, but you are not going to get rich on them anytime soon. Who really wants to part with the most beloved ones anyway? I guess thats why they are only going higher.

All the talk about RGB and HDTV has rekindled my interest in gaming, though still mostly retro games. Only within the last year or so have I seen what the 26 year old Sega Genesis was really supposed to look like, thanks to the the modding/ retro community turning me on to getting RGBs out of my systems and the necessity of doing so due to them looking so horrible on HDTVs these days.

[Xan]

I'm biased because it's the console I grew up with, but the PSX is really the most interesting console to collect for IMO. It has a massive library of games with quality titles in any genre and the prices are still reasonable for the most part. It also has the most faithful ports of DOS titles for the most part, which is great for everyone who wants to experience those games on an easily available system.

Seeing the RGB quality from this console on a PVM was a real revelation for me... I still think this is the one system that benefits the most from being played on a good CRT, and (mostly late/refined) games look amazing that way. The amount of smoothing that a CRT does is just right for the graphics, while on an LCD with emulation I found the dithering and jaggies to stick out like a sore thumb. Since that's how most people will play it these days it's no wonder that PSX graphics have a horrible reception these days, although I'll admit not having seen how it looks on the XRGB-mini.

[Josh128]

The PSX does have a massive library of games, some of the best ever also. I dont have a large collection of them at all, only a few essentials (including Parappa ). Several of our original PSX games were stolen from our parents home by a "friend" of my brother years ago. FF7 and Tekken 3 among others . I should look into getting more while I still can...

Like the N64, its 3D games look pretty bad on most HDTVs and need a decent 15KHz CRT to shine. I will say though, and not because of any bias, that both of those systems fare better on the F4500 than any other HDTV Ive tried them on due to the gentle interpolation of its 240p mode. Its no Trinitron by any means, but its very acceptable compared to many other HDTVs. My Panasonic P50x60 was also a 768p set, and it was far less forgiving to games like Mario 64 and MGS than the Samsung is-- its handling of 240p was pretty good for 2D games but far too sharp for 3D ones.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

thank you guys for all the reply... I am not from Texas but as the saying goes over there "bigger is better" for me the 20" monitor is great again due to the size, small space and I game like 4 feet away but be aware, over 94lbs. Again it is something that the newbies need to know.. the newbies should also look into NEC XM29 Plus if they want bigger.. My understanding is, that the NEC XM29 Plus is the best all in one monitor but extremely hard to find.

I agreed with not shipping monitor across the states but when you can not find them on your local area what are you to do? None the less, I will make sure that the monitor stay local and in the community if something changes and I need to pass them along.

For the retro games -- they are expensive.. Gradius V cost me over $40 Marvel vs. capcom 2 cost me $50 including shipping. There are still local deals to be found.. a week ago, I found ps1 Castlevania Symphony of the night which looks like new.. not a single scratch on the disk or manual casing for $20. Granted, the lady that sold me the game probably did not know the real cost or what I was willing to pay for that game. Talking about games.. if you are thinking about parting away from your PS1/PS2/Saturn 2ds fighting and shumps games or 2d sprite games please send me a line.

thanks
SNK-NEO-GEO