Extron RGB can de-interlace component YPbPr and S-video!

[BazookaBen]

After spending a day building a sync-stripper and figuring out how to trick my Xbox 360 and Wii into doing RGB, something dawned on me: my Extron RGB 201 Rxi has a SoG (Sync on Green) mode. Then I thought, "wait, component video is kinda like RGsB, maybe the Extron will just process the sync like normal and pass the color information through unadulterated".

So I put my Wii in component 480i mode, used a simple 3-RCA to VGA adapter cable, and sure enough, it worked! Whether in 480i mode or "fake 240p" mode, it looks just as good as RGB with a sync-stripper. The only difference is I have much less cable clutter this way, since I don't have my amateurish LM1881 circuit thrown into the mix.

I searched the forum and didn't see any mention of the Extron RGB working this way. Maybe not all models have the SoG mode? Anyway, I figure this might be a pretty big deal for those of you without RGB capable monitors. I haven't tried this on a consumer set, but so far it works great on my component-compatible PVM.

[Fudoh]

thanks for that! certainly an interesting find. SoG input should work on all interfaces. Output as well, but might require the SoG dip to be switched.

[BazookaBen]

I'm surprised I didn't think to try this earlier, because on multiple occasions I've done something like hooking my PS2 up to a SoG monitor while it's in YPbPr mode, and getting a very green, but also very sharp picture. So the sync signal is clearly identical regardless of what colorspace the system is using.

I'll try the ADSP mode on my consumer Trinitron (YPbPr-only) later and let you know how it goes.

[matrigs]

good find!

i sadly doubt that there is any benefit in this besides for component PVM sets.

i will have to check but i can imagine that lcd tv sets will still handle the input as 480i and there will be no gain quality wise.
and all of the consumer tv-sets with component that i have seen are 100 hz anyway, so it's pretty much the same.

figuring out how to trick my Xbox 360 and Wii into doing RGB

i don't really understand this one. both consoles do RGB just fine?

[BazookaBen]

good find!
i sadly doubt that there is any benefit in this besides for component PVM sets.

When I say "consumer set", I'm talking about mass-produced CRT's, like the Sony Trinitron TV sets. You know, the only thing that was available for most of the last 60 years? There are lots of people that use late 90's, early 00's Sony CRT's for retro games.

i don't really understand this one. both consoles do RGB just fine?

Yep. The 360 doesn't even require modification. I just had to hack a cable since I didn't want to buy a SCART cable. Wii is kinda the same, you just also need to run some homebrew software. All the info you need is in this forum.

[matrigs]

good find!
i sadly doubt that there is any benefit in this besides for component PVM sets.

When I say "consumer set", I'm talking about mass-produced CRT's, like the Sony Trinitron TV sets. You know, the only thing that was available for most of the last 60 years? There are lots of people that use late 90's, early 00's Sony CRT's for retro games.

is this post supposed to be sarcastic? because if, then doesn't really parry my statement that 15 khz component-equipped tv-sets are rare (at least in euro-land) and for non-component-equipped sets this "trick" doesn't help.

i don't really understand this one. both consoles do RGB just fine?

Yep. The 360 doesn't even require modification. I just had to hack a cable since I didn't want to buy a SCART cable. Wii is kinda the same, you just also need to run some homebrew software. All the info you need is in this forum.

now with this one i don't even have to ask about sarcasm.

[Fudoh]

He's definitely refering to the US market. From an American customer's point of view, it's very easy to pick up a consumer CRT TV that has component inputs. Not *AS EASY* as a RGB-enabled on in Europe, but still way easier than a RGB monitor in the US.

[BazookaBen]

Got to try it on my 27" KV-series Trinitron TV, and it works great! This opens up a whole new potential market for the Extron RGB. It even has less of that subtle flicker that you may notice when using an Extron with a PVM.

Here's a pic of the setup for my KV set.



Here's a couple pics of Mega Man 9 running on it. Color isn't perfect because there was a ton of ambient sunlight, and I need to calibrate the set, but you can still see the extra-clear scanlines.

[Arasoi]

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[muckyfingers]

Looks like a pretty good effect, and cool discovery too. I had not thought of that.

I did something similar with a Extron 202rxi unit and my Wii trying to get a 240p look from MM9/10.

YPbPr from the Wii -> X Select D4 -> Extron 202rxi -> Mitsubishi AM4201 (tested on an old Samung SDTV with component, and a commodore 1084s as well with sync combiner)

Hard to see from the pics but the flicker was a bit obnoxious on all 3 tubes I tried. I didn't have an Extron VSC unit to reduce flicker, so went a different route and hacked Mega Man 9 and 10's wad files for 480p output, and ran that through an SLG3000 to the AM4201. Much better result IMO.

Is there a link to the 480p patcher or some instructions? I would like to 480p patch my MM9 and 10 as well.

[Arasoi]

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[bobrocks95]

I don't believe a tutorial exists, but here is what I did. It requires the homebrew channel on wii.

I had to unpack the wad file into individual files for each game with a utility like showmiiwads, then run waninkoko's video mode changer on one of the files (I believe the one ending in 09) and patch all 3 video modes to NTSC progressive, then repack the files into the wad again. After installing the patched wads through HBC they must be run with Wiiflow, set to progressive in addition to the patching (not sure why this is) and then run.

I've tried forcing the program into 240p directly with this method without luck, which is too bad because I'd rather change the wii's video mode via HBC into RGBS out and use that instead (Wii component has a fairly noisy signal IMO)

Ahh, a couple weird details in there I didn't do when I unsuccessfully tried to patch 9/10 to 480p. I'll have to give it another shot, thanks. Especially given how bad the 360 version looks...

[Arasoi]

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[BazookaBen]

Huh? Does Mega Man 10 have added blur on PS3 or 360? What about in 480i mode? I imagine a blur filter could mess up the results on my Extron RGB.

I was thinking about getting it on PS3 or 360 so I could use something other than the Wiimote.

[Fudoh]

Yes, they're filtered. The Wii versions of MM9 and 10 are sharper.

[bobrocks95]

Huh? Does Mega Man 10 have added blur on PS3 or 360? What about in 480i mode? I imagine a blur filter could mess up the results on my Extron RGB.

I was thinking about getting it on PS3 or 360 so I could use something other than the Wiimote.

Buying them on 360 or PS3 is unfortunately a huge waste of money if you are picky about video quality (and why would you be here if you weren't ). I'm not at home to check, but don't they support the Classic Controller? It's a really nice pad if you haven't got one.

[Arasoi]

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[BazookaBen]

Buying them on 360 or PS3 is unfortunately a huge waste of money if you are picky about video quality

Good God, you guys are right. I just tried the demo for 10 on PS3 and 360, and it certainly isnt' scaled 1:1 at 480p or 480i. Totally disgusting.

I went ahead and picked it up on Wii, and it is scaled perfectly. Looks great in 240p on my Extron.

don't they support the Classic Controller? It's a really nice pad if you haven't got one.

It just annoys me that I can use my Hori Digital Gamecube controller on just about everthing else except for MM9/10. I guess I'll consider picking up a classic controller, even though I'd only use it for MM9/10 and Xenoblade.

[bobrocks95]

It won't exactly save you money, and adds a bit of lag, but if you really want to use your Hori controller you can get a GameCube to Wiimote adapter:
http://www.raphnet-tech.com/products/gc ... /index.php

Also, does your Wii not have Gamecube ports, or do both games not support the Gamecube controller?

[BazookaBen]

Also, does your Wii not have Gamecube ports, or do both games not support the Gamecube controller?

I have the ports, MM9/10 just don't support it. Which is kinda lame considering the Konami Rebirth games and almost every VC game support it.

It's really disappointing how they worked so hard to nail the retro aesthetic, but they totally fumbled in the video output department. I mean, the Wii has only 3 resolutions to chose from, and they force everyone to use the worst of those 3. Then the PS3/360 versions are even more disgusting by forcing the game into some non-1:1 resolution, and scale it from there.

[bobrocks95]

I would say it's Capcom being Capcom, but I'm pretty sure Inti Creates did pretty much everything on it. I don't see how the artists didn't protest that blur filter.

[muckyfingers]

Thanks for the 480p tips.

I use this on the Wii, it does come with the US NES controller adapter cable as well. I like being able to use an original NES or SNES controller depending on the game I am playing. No lag from my experience.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mayflash-Contro ... 415bbbe09d

[BazookaBen]

Just for the record, I'm thinking this also probably works for S-video, as long as the Y (Luma) signal is on the Green channel. Would love to see someone try it. I would do it but I don't want to buy a couple s-video breakout cables when I don't really need them.

[BazookaBen]

It also works with S-video!

I bought the adapter below on a whim, curious to see if ADSP worked differently with S-video, and the results looked basically identical to component and RGB. The only weird thing is that a black line would appear periodically in the picture. I'm not sure if that was the extron's fault, or my cable, or maybe my monitor. It was just a minor distraction, and didn't occur very often.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Display-Devices ... 4d09a443b5

So for any of you that only have S-video available, it seems the Extron can still be a solution for you.

And a side note, apparently not all Extron RGB units can process SoG. I got a cheap 460xi wall mount unit, and it doesn't process any sync from the green line, it only works when sync is on the sync line. Additionally, it gave unusable results with ADSP when I fed actual RGB, so I would just stay away from that model.

I guess my 201 Rxi works so well because I can tune it in with the vertical adjustment, which not all of them have. I'd be curious to know if any of you have seen good results on a model without vertical adjustment.

[Fudoh]

Mods, you might want to change the title, because it also works with S-video!

you can do this yourself.

[theclaw]

is this post supposed to be sarcastic? because if, then doesn't really parry my statement that 15 khz component-equipped tv-sets are rare (at least in euro-land) and for non-component-equipped sets this "trick" doesn't help.

Just how strange Europeans find these USA sets.
Mass market 15khz CRTs with both a TV tuner and component input. But zero rgb.

[ckong]

I had this thread in my favourites for a long time now, and today I finally got around playing with these settings on the RGB 201 myself. And as already confirmed, it works great! This is a nice and simple way to get the Wii (and amongst others the PS2) in pseudeo 240p.

Too bad the H- en V- shift controles don't work when the unit is in ADSP mode. Why is that and is there an easy way to get shift controles? Maybe in combination with a Super Emotia?

[Fudoh]

Maybe in combination with a Super Emotia?

in combination with an Emotia you don't need the RGB interface to handle deinterlacing any longer, so - of course - you get full controls back with such a setup.

But on a different note: some time ago I talked to somebody on whose setup this was the other way around. Deinterlacing effect with enabled DSP controls and 480i with disabled controls. I wondered if that might be related to some internal dip switch configuration. We never got around testing it, but maybe it's worth looking into it.

[ckong]

Maybe in combination with a Super Emotia?

in combination with an Emotia you don't need the RGB interface to handle deinterlacing any longer, so - of course - you get full controls back with such a setup.

But on a different note: some time ago I talked to somebody on whose setup this was the other way around. Deinterlacing effect with enabled DSP controls and 480i with disabled controls. I wondered if that might be related to some internal dip switch configuration. We never got around testing it, but maybe it's worth looking into it.

OK, ..... but I thought the Super Emotia only handles 480p as input. Most Playstation 2 games are 480i. Or am I mistaken? And does the Super Emotia accept SoG?

Internal dip switches? Well, I might be a nitwit regarding electronics, I'm never afraid to open stuff and try things out. So, open the RGB 201 went:



A first quick inspection reveiled some area's with dipswitches and jumpers, see inside the red squares. Now just find out what they do:



And there are a lot of pots. Hm, it will be interesting to read the manual.

[PogOrion]

Looking to get an Extron RGB Interface. Is it that component YPbPr video input is compatable with these devices?