Wii PAL component worse than NTSC component?

[andykara2003]

I've read opinions here & there saying that the 480p component output of the PAL Wii console is inferior to the component of the NTSC version of the console. Can anyone shed any light on whether this is true or not?

Cheers.

[Lawfer]

Dunno, component output on the Wii isnt great all over, the PAL Wiis can output 576i 50hz, which is well awful.

But on PAL Wiis you can get the best analog output which is RGB, the best would be to get a modchipped/softmodded PAL Wii and play NTSC games with RGB output.

[andykara2003]

Cheers for that Lawfer - I just can't stand the interlaced image though, so I'm set on component. For that I believe that the PAL and NTSC Wii both output component at 480p - I'm really interested in the comparison between these...

[ZellSF]

PAL and NTSC consoles are 100% identical, I believe. I don't see any reason why Nintendo would make different versions for different territories.

I've heard theories that the Family Wiis might be different though.

[Lawfer]

Cheers for that Lawfer - I just can't stand the interlaced image though, so I'm set on component.

Well the only other way I can think of to get a progressive picture whitout using component cables would be to somehow get 480p RGBHV output out of the Wii, for that you would need a custom cable and would probably require modding or softmodding your console (Fudoh mentioned that you can do that for the original Xbox, dunno about the Wii though).

If not there is another way, you could play Wii games on a Wii U and get HDMI output and convert it to RGBHV, you will get 480p RGB.

Since you are probably going to use a BVM D/A, you will need to convert RGBHV to either RGBs or RGsB.

I've heard theories that the Family Wiis might be different though.

I have heard this rumor too from retrorgb, I asked Fudoh and he said that there wasnt any difference he could notice in the output picture quality.

[andykara2003]

Ahh - but I do want to use component cables, regardless whether using a NTSC or PAL console. The US component cable should be the same as the UK one and both should output 480p component fine as far as I know ...

RetroRGB is where I heard this from as well. I am about to test the PAL family edition (RVL-101) but I think his tests involved NTSC black RVL-101 (non-cube) consoles. This is where the crux of my question lies:

1: There are threads on a few forums where people swear blind that the NTSC Wii component has a superior component output to the PAL Wii component and at least one person said he tried the two side be side, switching between the two and the NTSC was definitely sharper. I tend to not to have too much faith in forums other than ones like Shmups which have mostly very tech savvy people - hence posting my question here.

2: RetroRGB says that the black, non cube (RVL-101) Wii has a sharper image. I think he's in the US so I assume he's using US NTSC consoles. He says he has tested a few and he has five black consoles that have the sharper image.

If the above two points are true, could it be that Fudoh has only tested using the PAL Wii and that the NTSC RVL-101 Wii is the most likely to have a sharper image than others (if any do at all)?

[Lawfer]

If the above two points are true, could it be that Fudoh has only tested using the PAL Wii and that the NTSC RVL-101 Wii is the most likely to have a sharper image than others (if any do at all)?

He tested the blue one. Dunno if it was USA or PAL.

[andykara2003]

I'll ask him now...

[Fudoh]

I actually didn't. I might have refered to what Martin (Konsolkongen) told me. I think he tested one of the newer machines and didn't find any noteworthy differences.

[andykara2003]

Ahh thanks very much Fudoh - I'll PM him about this as well. I've now bought 3 Wiis to test this out thoroughly: 1 PAL Family (white) , 1 PAL black and 1 NTSC black, all RVL-101 non 'cube compatible so I'll hopefully be able to shed some light on this soon.

[juji82]

let us know the results !

[Lawfer]

I actually didn't. I might have refered to what Martin (Konsolkongen) told me. I think he tested one of the newer machines and didn't find any noteworthy differences.

I see, I knew it was a friend of yours who tested with a blue wii, like the one you can see here:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Nintendo-Blue ... i/17450071

But it wasnt clear if you saw the results yourself or it was someone else who told you the results. I just know that the result didnt have any noticeable differences (hence why I never bothered picking up another Wii just for that). Anyway, if the newer Wiis did have any increase in output picture quality, this improvment would have surely carried over on the Wii U Wii output, but from what Fudoh told me the Wii U in Wii mode at 480i/480p has the same output quality as any other Wii.

[andykara2003]

I just had a *very* comprehensive answer from Martin. He says that he's never made a comparison between the different Wii revisions so maybe it was someone else that tested the blue one? The blue ones are also the later RVL-101 revision so it would be interesting to know whether that particular one was a PAL or NTSC version of the console as it would help in the process of elimination.

Either way, I have both PAL and NTSC versions of this revision coming so hopefully that will shed some light on it.

this improvment would have surely carried over on the Wii U Wii output

You might be right but I don't think we can unequivocally infer that that's the case. Either way, the Wii U's Wii mode doesn't look the same as my (RVL-001) Wii on my plasma.

[Fudoh]

He says that he's never made a comparison between the different Wii revisions so maybe it was someone else that tested the blue one?

sorry about that. With about 100 PMs per months it's not easy to keep track of everything...

[andykara2003]

Not at all! Your input is always appreciated.

[Lawfer]

You might be right but I don't think we can unequivocally infer that that's the case. Either way, the Wii U's Wii mode doesn't look the same as my (RVL-001) Wii on my plasma.

Have you tested Wii mode on the Wii U in 480p with the component cable?

[andykara2003]

My apologies Lawfer - I did do that test a week or so ago and noticed a difference but thought I'd better repeat it now just to be absolutely sure what the differences were. However something was happening that I hadn't picked up on the first time..

For some unknown reason, if you're using a UK Wii U (not sure if this applies to other PAL territories), and if you use the component output with the Wii U's Wii mode, you're stuck with 576i. It doesn't matter if you set the Wii U to 480p in the settings prior to using Wii mode - it always automatically defaults to 576i and there are no display settings in Wii mode to change this!

This, of course, will explain why I saw a difference in PQ last time I tried this, thinking all the time that it must be outputting 480p as I had set this in the Wii U settings. I tinkered for a while trying to find a way around this but I'm almost certain there isn't. I did some research and this has been confirmed by a few people. From a Eurogamer article:

"Wii back-compat via HDMI works pretty well. Having ascertained that, we decided to try the component output in order to sample back-compat without the limited-range RGB issues presented by the digital output. However, we found that the display settings options in the PAL Wii U system menu appear to have absolutely no impact on the output the unit produces when switching into back-compat mode. On our UK unit, we were lumbered with 576i only - no PAL60, no 480p, both of which were supported in the original Wii hardware."

Strange - although this won't be too much of a problem generally as most people will use HDMI anyway.


All that being said however, and even if we assume that that the 480p component output of the Wii and the Wii U's Wii mode are the same (very likely true if Fudoh has confirmed it), it still doesn't rule out the possibility of there being a variation in 480p component PQ between the Wii revisions. The main reason I continue to feel that there must be some truth in this is that RetroRGB from retrorgb.com (and a member of this forum) has confirmed that this is true for at least some Wiis. We've emailed back & forth about this quite a bit and he says that he has seen 4 or 5 black NTSC non-'cube-compatible Wiis that have the higher component quality. He seems very knowledgable and goes quite deeply into PQ variations between consoles and inputs on his website, which is quite comprehensive. He also mentions the Wii component PQ variation in the first paragraph of this page: http://retrorgb.com/gamecubevswii.html

[nyder]

I've read opinions here & there saying that the 480p component output of the PAL Wii console is inferior to the component of the NTSC version of the console. Can anyone shed any light on whether this is true or not?

Cheers.

I have both a NTSC-U Wii and a PAL RVL-001 WIi, used both via component on my 20l5 and I didn't notice any difference. (However I never use 480P, just 240p in emulators with oringal/double strike enabled).

Recently obtained the official Wii RGB SCART, get some sort of distortion on the 20l5, seems to not like whites, the white screen on the 240P test suite shifts to the right then is all wiggly/jittery.

Nyd

[Lawfer]

My apologies Lawfer - I did do that test a week or so ago and noticed a difference but thought I'd better repeat it now just to be absolutely sure what the differences were. However something was happening that I hadn't picked up on the first time..

For some unknown reason, if you're using a UK Wii U (not sure if this applies to other PAL territories), and if you use the component output with the Wii U's Wii mode, you're stuck with 576i. It doesn't matter if you set the Wii U to 480p in the settings prior to using Wii mode - it always automatically defaults to 576i and there are no display settings in Wii mode to change this!

This, of course, will explain why I saw a difference in PQ last time I tried this, thinking all the time that it must be outputting 480p as I had set this in the Wii U settings. I tinkered for a while trying to find a way around this but I'm almost certain there isn't. I did some research and this has been confirmed by a few people. From a Eurogamer article:

"Wii back-compat via HDMI works pretty well. Having ascertained that, we decided to try the component output in order to sample back-compat without the limited-range RGB issues presented by the digital output. However, we found that the display settings options in the PAL Wii U system menu appear to have absolutely no impact on the output the unit produces when switching into back-compat mode. On our UK unit, we were lumbered with 576i only - no PAL60, no 480p, both of which were supported in the original Wii hardware."

Strange - although this won't be too much of a problem generally as most people will use HDMI anyway.


All that being said however, and even if we assume that that the 480p component output of the Wii and the Wii U's Wii mode are the same (very likely true if Fudoh has confirmed it), it still doesn't rule out the possibility of there being a variation in 480p component PQ between the Wii revisions. The main reason I continue to feel that there must be some truth in this is that RetroRGB from retrorgb.com (and a member of this forum) has confirmed that this is true for at least some Wiis. We've emailed back & forth about this quite a bit and he says that he has seen 4 or 5 black NTSC non-'cube-compatible Wiis that have the higher component quality. He seems very knowledgable and goes quite deeply into PQ variations between consoles and inputs on his website, which is quite comprehensive. He also mentions the Wii component PQ variation in the first paragraph of this page: http://retrorgb.com/gamecubevswii.html

What do you use to play import games on a PAL Wii?

[andykara2003]

The Wii was the first console where I've only ever bothered with PAL games as they play in 480p 60hz and I only use real hardware for retro stuff so I don't need the virtual console. I don't think there's another reason to play import games unless I'm missing something here? I know there were a very few PAL games that didn't support 480p but all the ones I like on the Wii do.

[Lawfer]

The Wii was the first console where I've only ever bothered with PAL games as they play in 480p 60hz and I only use real hardware for retro stuff so I don't need the virtual console. I don't think there's another reason to play import games unless I'm missing something here? I know there were a very few PAL games that didn't support 480p but all the ones I like on the Wii do.

Well 99 percent of my Wii games are NTSC US and I just want to get RGB, so I need to find a way to play NTSC games on my PAL Wii.

[andykara2003]

Ahh - hopefully there should be a way to play NTSC games via RGB - I've run into problems before running NTSC VC games on my soft modded PAL Wii because as soon as you trick the hardware into NTSC mode it doesn't output RGB & just gives a red tinted image.

I guess the other option is to 'get' some PAL games to play off a hard drive?

[blizzz]

Any USB loader on the Wii should be able to force NTSC games into PAL 480i with RGB output. NTSC VC games can also be played in 60Hz RGB with Triiforce.

[12345]

We should start from what we really know:

1. Nobody has EVER proven a difference in component output quality between the different versions.

2. Apparently there ARE obvious quality differences between PAL and NTSC, at least with some games (click). The question is, what is responsible for those observations?
Is it:
a.) Certain games which are poorly PAL-optimized?
b.) General difference in NTSC 480p and PAL 480p? Does PAL 480p look originally softer?
c.) Hardware related difference between NTSC consoles and PAL consoles?

To figure this out I would suggest the following solutions:
a.) Try the same version of Twilight Princess (EITHER PAL or NTSC) on different console versions/modes (once on NTSC, once on PAL). You might need to use a freeloader or homebrew to play it on the contrary region. If the game looks the same on both formats, it prooves that it's the game's fault.
b.) Launch the Wii menu in default 480p, take a comparison shot. After that change the region of your Wii (via homebrew) to NTSC and do the same on this mode. If there is a difference in output quality there is most likely a SOFTWARE-related difference in PAL/NTSC 480p.
c.) If there is no difference in performing the b.) test but in a.) there should be a hardware difference.

Maybe someone with patience wants to try this out...

[blizzz]

I think in the case of Twilight Princess it's just a filter that was added to the PAL version of the game.

[andykara2003]

Apparently there ARE obvious quality differences between PAL and NTSC, at least with some games

Cheers for that - I'll have a think about these points - seems logical. In the cases where there is a PAL/NTSC quality difference, is it always the NTSC versions that are better in quality?

[12345]

Please test and prove your statements. Without picture or video evidence claims are nothing more but claims and only confuse people with possible misleading information.

[RGB0b]

Please test and prove your statements.

That's exactly what we're trying to do, just be patient. Andy's working with his consoles and I'm trying to get a few more in, as well as get my capture card back (lent it to a friend) to try and show differences...although I only have access to NTSC consoles, so I can only test the difference between each of those. I've been really busy lately, so I'm not sure when I'll be able to get to this; Hopefully within a week or so.

RetroRGB is where I heard this from as well. I am about to test the PAL family edition (RVL-101) but I think his tests involved NTSC black RVL-101 (non-cube) consoles.

Just to be clear, most of the Wii's I've used are white RVL-001's. There was one black RVL-101 I modded for a friend that immediately looked better then the other ones I tried. I'm not trying to say that "all RVL-101's are better", I'm just sharing my experience. Maybe it's similar to the SNES 1-CHIP scenario?: All NTSC 1-CHIP systems start with serial number "UN3"....but not all "UN3's" are 1-CHIP's. Maybe some RVL-101's are better than others? That's what we're trying to find out. If I discover a Wii that's definitely better then the others, I'll pop it open and post pictures of all the guts to see if we can find a difference.

Also, the picture quality differences I saw weren't huge. People on this forum would definitely notice the difference, since we all seem to be pretty sensitive to even the slightest picture quality differences, but 99% of Wii users probably wouldn't notice.

[andykara2003]

Please test and prove your statements. Without picture or video evidence claims are nothing more but claims and only confuse people with possible misleading information.

My reply might have been a bit more cordial. Blizzz is a well respected member here & always very helpful.

Apparently there ARE obvious quality differences between PAL and NTSC, at least with some games (click). The question is, what is responsible for those observations?

I've had a good nose around the net about this. On the whole, Zelda Twilight Princess seems to be the only game that people talk about as being poorer quality on PAL machines. The general opinion is that the game doesn't seem to run in true 480p on the PAL verson. There doesn't seem to be anyone with any reliable evidence about any other PAL games that have this problem - I've seen a few posts where people say they have tested other games side by side & not noticed a difference. This is the only game website I've seen referencing the Zelda's issue: http://www.gamekult.com/actu/zelda-wii- ... 54201.html

I'm inclined to believe that Twilight princess is an isolated problem. Mario Galaxy also got metioned regarding this but only one forum & they were pretty vague about it. I've ordered a US version of the game along with a US (RVL-101) Wii so I'll test them against the PAL version (I'll test some other games including TP in this way as well). Here's a quote from a guy who tested games across PAL VS NTSC consoles in 480p:

"I did some more tests against my ntsc US machine & on the games i tested it appears as though Zelda is the only game that is different. It must have an in game anti-aliasing filter applied to our version of the game & not the ntsc version. Pal UK Metroid 3, Sonic:secret rings & Red steel all ran at 480p with the same picture quality as the US ntsc versions."

Perhaps Blizzz was right about that filter

Launch the Wii menu in default 480p, take a comparison shot

I appreciate your methodology - the only thing is that I couldn't trust a photo comparison to detect subtle differences in image quality. I would have to switch quickly between one console and another on the display to be sure of what's going on.

Maybe some RVL-101's are better than others?

This is what I'm thinking.

If I discover a Wii that's definitely better then the others, I'll pop it open and post pictures of all the guts to see if we can find a difference.

Very decent of you - I'll do the same.

I have one result back by the way - my PAL Wii family edition (Non-'cube, RVL-101) is absolutely no different from the original (RVL-001) PAL Wii in image quality. I tested Mario Galaxy and the dashboard and they are exactly the same. Looking forward to doing the NTSC test.

[12345]

@andykara2003
Thank you for your input. I appreciate your observations and your "trust" in well respected members but this might not lead to a solution of the problem. Only by objective testing and comparing, such as taking screenshots or videos with the same capturing device, you can really tell a difference and prove it in the end.
I suppose you're right though about Zelda and other Wii games. I've also heard some stories about MG but have never seen anything decent or well documented. If you are lucky enough to have two consoles/games from different regions, would you mind trying the workflow a.) I mentioned previously? Thanks!