Raiden considered a bullet hell?

mehguy · Post by **mehguy** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:47 pm

I'm talking about raiden 3 and anything after raiden 3. Is it considered a bullet hell?

Bonus! · Post by **Bonus!** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:50 pm

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:56 pm

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:59 pm

Raiden III and above:

-Few pixels hitbox? Check

-Greater bullet density/speed/complexity than would be possible with a larger hitbox? Check

Seems close enough to me. The small hitbox is the defining aspect of the sub-genre for me.

KAI · Post by **KAI** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:17 pm

nasty_wolverine · Post by **nasty_wolverine** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:20 pm

kinda but not really

RaidenViper · Post by **RaidenViper** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:28 pm

trap15 wrote:No.

Bonus! wrote:No.

KAI wrote:No.

mastermx · Post by **mastermx** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:29 pm

Dodging in raiden is not bullet hell imo. The bullets are just way too fast (for a bullet hell) .

Obiwanshinobi · Post by **Obiwanshinobi** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:50 pm

Hitbox in III seems bigger than in your average bullet hell to me (and doging doesn't seem alike at all).
It's like Dragon Blaze and Gunbird 2 in that respect: smaller hitbox allows for greater bullet pattern density, but neither makes for a sub-genre.

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:59 pm

Obiwanshinobi wrote:Hitbox in III seems bigger than in your average bullet hell to me (and doging doesn't seem alike at all).
It's like Dragon Blaze and Gunbird 2 in that respect: smaller hitbox allows for greater bullet pattern density, but neither makes for a sub-genre.

That's actually my reason for saying it is. Is it really worth declaring it its own sub-genre because the hitbox is 3x3 or 4x4 instead of 2x2? Also "the patterns are fast and and sparse instead of slow and dense" so is Mushi Original not bullet hell either? I think this is just an example of a different playstyle while falling within the parameters and mechanics of the sub-genre (small hitbox).

It's closer to a bullet hell shooter than it is an "old school" shooter with a hitbox of 20x20 or bigger. IMO close enough that I feel it's less confusing to call it bullet hell.

Muchi Muchi Spork · Post by **Muchi Muchi Spork** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:11 am

It's not danmaku/bullet curtain/bullet hell.

Hit box size does not define danmaku.

It is not declaring a new sub-genre. It's the same genre Raidens always were, and they predate danmaku by several years.

Special World · Post by **Special World** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:15 am

No.

It's a manic shooter if anything.

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:17 am

Special World wrote:
Post subject: Re: Raiden considered a bullet hell?
No.

It's a manic shooter if anything.

I always considered manic shooters as falling under the umbrella of "bullet hell"

Obiwanshinobi · Post by **Obiwanshinobi** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:26 am

Shmups I consider "manic": Raiden Fighters series and Dangun Feveron. Typical bullet hells don't do it for me.

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:It is not declaring a new sub-genre. It's the same genre Raidens always were, and they predate danmaku by several years.

Aye, no wobble screen in III makes the biggest difference.

Obiwanshinobi · Post by **Obiwanshinobi** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:30 am

[Obsolete post.]

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:36 am

Missed this.

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote: Hit box size does not define danmaku.

It's one of the biggest factors IMO, and is generally one of the two factors that decide the matter for me:

1) does it have a very small hitbox (measurable in a few pixels)

2) do the patterns (fast or slow) force you to make use of that smaller hitbox and wouldn't be reasonable or well balanced/designed without that smaller hitbox?

Those are what define a bullet hell shooter for me. Maybe not necessarily "danmaku". But bullet hell? Yeah. And I generally consider manic shooters a smaller, less dominant subset of bullet hell as a whole, since they conform to the 2 above. To me, manic vs danmaku are just two different styles that both fall under the same sub-genre. A sub-genre that is made possible almost entirely by a smaller hitbox.

Special World · Post by **Special World** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:43 am

Squire Grooktook wrote:
Special World wrote:
Post subject: Re: Raiden considered a bullet hell?
No.

It's a manic shooter if anything.
I always considered manic shooters as falling under the umbrella of "bullet hell"

I always considered manic shooter the in-between of "normal STGs" and bullet hell. So like Raiden, Battle Garegga, etc. There's definitely an era that was pushing past classic STGs without entering bullet hell territory.

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:49 am

Special World wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Special World wrote:
Post subject: Re: Raiden considered a bullet hell?
No.

It's a manic shooter if anything.
I always considered manic shooters as falling under the umbrella of "bullet hell"
I always considered manic shooter the in-between of "normal STGs" and bullet hell. So like Raiden, Battle Garegga, etc. There's definitely an era that was pushing past classic STGs without entering bullet hell territory.

I think there are games like that too, but at the same time there are a lot of stg's that are considered bullet hell like Mushi Original that are well loved for using "less density, more speed". If you want to call it a different style, I think that's accurate. But to say it's not bullet hell (a sub-genre, not a style) is misleading IMO, because it fully captures the sense of on screen craziness (only possible with a smaller hitbox) that people think of when they talk about "bullet hell".

I suppose I could see manic shooters with hitboxes roughly equivalent to bullet hell shooters as a completely different sub-genre IF:

1: there were more of them

2: danmaku shooters didn't occasionally use larger hitboxes (ddp:soj) or faster more sparse patterns (Mushi Original), making the distinction very subjective.

But both are untrue.

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:50 am

Squire Grooktook wrote:2) do the patterns (fast or slow) force you to make use of that smaller hitbox and wouldn't be reasonable or well balanced/designed without that smaller hitbox?

And this is why Raiden is not a danmaku. It doesn't want you to dodge bullets like that, it's all about macro-dodging.

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:54 am

trap15 wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:2) do the patterns (fast or slow) force you to make use of that smaller hitbox and wouldn't be reasonable or well balanced/designed without that smaller hitbox?
And this is why Raiden is not a danmaku. It doesn't want you to dodge bullets like that, it's all about macro-dodging.

But would the macro dodges in r3 or dragon blaze be possible with a larger hitbox? Would this be possible with a larger hitbox? I don't think so, or at least it wouldn't be as well balanced. They were designed with that hitbox in mind. That's the distinction I make.

*edit*

also as I said. I wouldn't call it danmaku (given the literal meaning of the word). But bullet hell? Yes.

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:01 am

Absolutely. The only part in there that I can see that relies on the small hitbox is the stupid random aimed spread.

I don't think the whole genre word thing matters anyways, it's too hard to define, too specific (or not specific enough), and people have weird attachments to words that they refuse to give up associating something with. It's just like stupid music genres like post-indie rave hardcore. Who the fuck even cares.

mastermx · Post by **mastermx** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:26 am

Raiden has a lot of fast aimed bullets that you tap dodge. It is not a bullet hell, you never have to weave between bullets like in mushi. The static spray shots here and there don't make it a bullet hell. I don't think hitbox size is the sole deciding factor in this.

Bananamatic · Post by **Bananamatic** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:27 am

trap15 wrote:Absolutely. The only part in there that I can see that relies on the small hitbox is the stupid random aimed spread.

The spread is actually destructible bullets with the only indestructible bullets being aimed, so having a bigger hitbox wouldnt really change much considering how big the gaps between the bullets are
the whole boss is stupidly easy though, probably the 3rd easiest one in the game

trap15 · Post by **trap15** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:30 am

In that case, yeah, he definitely could have done that even with a ship-sized hitbox.

bsidwell · Post by **bsidwell** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:35 am

mehguy wrote:Is it considered a bullet hell?

No.

Hope this helps.

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:44 am

trap15 wrote:I don't think the whole genre word thing matters anyways, it's too hard to define, too specific (or not specific enough), and people have weird attachments to words that they refuse to give up associating something with. It's just like stupid music genres like post-indie rave hardcore. Who the fuck even cares.

Yes I know, it's not a big deal really. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I know there's no definite dictionary definition on what bullet hell is, but for me it's just a very general sub-genre that encompasses the craziness of both small hitbox manic shooters as well as slow, dense danmaku shooters.

Also just because it's technically possible to do patterns with a larger hitbox, that doesn't mean that the smaller hitbox isn't a deliberate and definite factor in making those patterns "work". Technically many Dodonpachi or mushi original patterns could be done with a hitbox a few sizes larger, but the smaller hitbox is still utilized as an integral part of the games playstyle. It allows patterns that are more dense or complex than what you'd see in a game with a larger hitbox to be more forgiving, so that you don't need 100% execution to dodge stuff.

Muchi Muchi Spork · Post by **Muchi Muchi Spork** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:12 am

I'm under the impression that the player's hitbox has shrunk in all shooting game genres/sub-genres over the past 25 years. Apparently bullet hell has become a worthless undefinable term. Danmaku means there are bullet curtains, but was actually never part of the question here. My bad on that one.

Squire Grooktook · Post by **Squire Grooktook** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:24 am

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:I'm under the impression that the player's hitbox has shrunk in all shooting game genres/sub-genres over the past 25 years.

That is definitely not true. The small hitbox/bullet hell design has simply become more popular, is all. Games like Satazius, Ether Vapor, The Tales of Alltynex trilogy, and probably a few others are notable examples of modern well regarded shmups that do not embrace a smaller hitbox.

Despatche · Post by **Despatche** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:59 am

it's not about the hitbox shrinking leading to more bullets, it's about more bullets requiring the hitbox to be shrunk. all the size of the hitbox does is make the same thing easier or harder for the player.

manic might have twenty different definitions, but all that does is hurt the term. manic should be a term used to refer to crazy fast bullets as a norm, regardless of how many there are. later gradius loops, lots of old games like toaplan and the raidens, sonic wings and psikyo, etc. similarly, "danmaku" should just mean tons of bullets, regardless of speed or whatever. most cave games, most of the touhou series, aba games, etc.

the reason why games with fast bullets tend to have few and why games with so many bullets tend to make them slower is the same reason why the hitbox needs to be adjusted; it just fits better. these things are a result of the kind of patterns put out, not the other way around.

honestly, i'd dare to call sonic wings and psikyo danmaku; those games tend to put out a lot of bullets. they should be considered danmaku as much as batsugun and donpachi are, at least. i would not call raiden danmaku, because none of the games ever really get to that point.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:33 am