Dreamcast VS Xbox 360: which has the better shmups?

[mehguy]

I've been thinking of getting one or the other. But which console is the best for shmups?

[professor ganson]

JP PS2

[Squire Grooktook]

Xbox brings the best Cave games, great stuff like Qute (Eschatos, Ginga Force), and a few other misc titles that are worth owning (Strania, Raiden, Caladrius, etc.)

With Dreamcast I don't think you're getting much more than Ikaruga, Under Defeat (both available on other systems including Xbox), Border Down, and a bunch of Milestone shmups (also available on Wii anyway).

[professor ganson]

With Dreamcast I don't think you're getting much more than Ikaruga, Under Defeat (both available on other systems including Xbox), Border Down, and a bunch of Milestone shmups (also available on Wii anyway).

What?

[BulletMagnet]

Both have good exclusives, and IMO are worth owning, though I'd definitely give the 360 the edge in terms of pure volume, especially if you're able to play imports. On the flipside, the DC is cheaper to acquire and easier to import-enable, not to mention may be decidedly more up your alley if you're a Takumi fan, so as per usual it kinda depends on your tastes.

[chempop]

360 is better if you like cave, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t play Gigawing1+2, Mars Matrix, Gunbird 2, Zerogunner2, and many other fantastic games on the DC.

Get both.

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh yeah, I forgot Takumi and Psyiko. Those alone make it a valid choice IMO.

[Special World]

Dreamcast has Mars Matrix, Twinkle Star Sprites, Gunbird 2, and Zero Gunner 2

I reflexively picked 360 because I love its shooter library to death, but DC is super great too

[LordHypnos]

360 is probably better, generally. It's got more games, and the games are generally more affordable for the time being (a lot of them are still around $40). Many are region-free as well.

Dreamcast is still pretty boss though. There's Gunbird 2 (with Morrigan from Darkstalkers as secret playable character *gasp*), the 2 best Giga Wing games (according to almost everybody), and tons of perfect Naomi ports (most arcade accurate versions in some cases). Then of course, there's the exclusives: Border Down, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing 2, Zero Gunner 2... I might be forgetting some. The system is so easy to play imports on that you don't even have to worry (unless you get a non-mil CD compatible console), and usually runs under $50 last I checked (compared to the 360 which is still a good amount over $100 I think). Only issue is that, apart from the games with North American releases (excluding Giga Wing 2), they cost a fortune (usually $80+), and a lot of them have cheaper ports on the PS2, 360, Wii, GC, even PC for one or two etc.

I voted DC, though, for Mars Matrix, b/c it's the best. Still can be found for around $50, too, which is totally worth it! Well, to me it's worth it, anyway

[nosorrow]

360 is better if you like cave, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t play Gigawing1+2, Mars Matrix, Gunbird 2, Zerogunner2, and many other fantastic games on the DC.

Get both.

Exactly this.

[mehguy]

How easy is it to import games?

[chempop]

How easy is it to import games?

[TransatlanticFoe]

360 is going to be cheaper for a lot of the games, because most have budget label re-releases that are still in print. You will need a Japanese console if you want to play the full range though, as a handful aren't region free (most of them are, or received localisations).

Dreamcast probably has a wider variety but is anything on it actually that cheap? Giga Wing I suppose but that's about it! Some of them are on 360 (Ikarugu, Under Defeat, Triggerheart Exelica, Trizeal) but the ones that aren't are well worth the money. On the plus side a simple boot disc lets you play imports. The independent/homebrew shmups are a mixed bag - Fast Striker is awesome, Neo XYX is only playable in tate due to a major bug, Last Hope is fairly good but won't be everyone's cup of tea, Sturmwind is very pretty but easy, and DUX is average and got about a hundred revisions.

Sega Saturn has the best games though. Seriously, get a Saturn.

Importing is easy - for 360 games that are in print, somewhere like PlayAsia is fine (watch out for customs though). For everything else, you can usually find auctions locally or head over here: http://www.sk8tokyo.com/shmup/

[professor ganson]

The DC has one of the best overall ports of Shikigami no Shiro II. The L.E. includes the stellar soundtrack.

[nosorrow]

The DC has one of the best overall ports of Shikigami no Shiro II. The L.E. includes the stellar soundtrack.

Can you "tate" it on either side though? I recall reading you couldn't and that it was only possible to switch the screen to one side (the "wrong" one).

[Plasmo]

The DC has one of the best overall ports of Shikigami no Shiro II. The L.E. includes the stellar soundtrack.

Can you "tate" it on either side though? I recall reading you couldn't and that it was only possible to switch the screen to one side (the "wrong" one).

There's nothing wrong with the tate option in Shiki 2 on DC.

[LordHypnos]

Dreamcast probably has a wider variety but is anything on it actually that cheap?

I got Gunbird 2 for around $20, Giga Wing (new) for around $30, and Mars Matrix for $50. I think I've seen a few DC games around $60, but the rest are probably around $80-$100 some, so yeah, expensive, and probably only going up

The ones that are cheap tend to have some kind of problem that may or may not be an issue for one depending on circumstance. I'll defend Mars Matrix by saying that it's close enough to the arcade (and no speed difference) that you could still probably get the arcade clear with only a little bit of practice of specific parts (a few patterns are slightly different) if you eschewed piercing cannon autofire in the DC version (which you can easily do). I think that between the extras and the removal of the counterstop it's probably the better game. Gunbird 2 is also a great port (arcade perfect, in fact!) if you have the option to use S-Video / RGB (Does not play well with VGA), and a TV / Monitor that you can tate (It also has rotated controls as an option, but all of the yoko modes kind of suck). Giga Wing is just messed up in terms of speed, I think, which makes the DC version harder than the arcade, I don't think that it can really be said to be improved, either.

Of course, if money is not your issue, there are a few exclusives that are significant, especially Mars Matrix, Border Down, and Zero Gunner 2, of which the latter two are over $100, but very highly regarded (Probably why they're so expensive). Also a lot of perfect naomi ports. It would give you a decent amount of variety. Possibly more than the X360, since almost all of those are CAVE, but IDK. There's just more games on the 360, and there are a few non-CAVE developers who have made them, so you're not just getting one style only. A lot of good download-only games on there, as well. Ideally, you'd be able to play the complete library of both of them, I suppose

[nosorrow]

Bottom line is that anybody who loves shoot 'em ups and has a bit of spare cash definitely needs both. On Dreamcast, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing 1/2, Border Down, Zero Gunner 2 and great versions of Under Defeat and Gunbird 2, etc. are too good to pass up IMO.

Of course, you need a Saturn and PS2 as well, the latter of which also allows you to play the underrated PS1 library.

[mehguy]

Money is a big issue here. I'm think about the dreamcast, as it has more than just cave. What dc shmups do you recommend that aren't too expensive?

[professor ganson]

What dc shmups do you recommend that aren't too expensive?

Things with US releases tend to be inexpensive, and a DC system can be found for super cheap. Once upon a time Gunbird 2 and Giga Wing were very inexpensive and pretty easy to find in the US. Mars Matrix and Giga Wing 2 were a bit more rare and expensive, but not that bad. I haven't kept up on prices and availability more recently, but you might just want to see whether you can find these games at reasonable prices. For me they are all very challenging games, and I can't get very far in them. But I still recommend them strongly, though Giga Wing 2 was my first manic shooter and it was overwhelming. Maybe I could do better with it now, but I'm not sure. It's definitely not a beginner's shmup.

[mehguy]

What dc shmups do you recommend that aren't too expensive?

Things with US releases tend to be inexpensive, and a DC system can be found for super cheap. Once upon a time Gunbird 2 and Giga Wing were very inexpensive and pretty easy to find in the US. Mars Matrix and Giga Wing 2 were a bit more rare and expensive, but not that bad. I haven't kept up on prices and availability more recently, but you might just want to see whether you can find these games at reasonable prices. For me they are all very challenging games, and I can't get very far in them. But I still recommend them strongly, though Giga Wing 2 was my first manic shooter and it was overwhelming. Maybe I could do better with it now, but I'm not sure. It's definitely not a beginner's shmup.

Where can I find these games?

[professor ganson]

eBay?

I took a chance today and bought a new S-video cable for my DC in the hope that the ones I've owned previously were just crap, and it worked perfectly. I'm super happy about this. Can't wait to see how my DC games look now!

[LordHypnos]

Money is a big issue here. I'm think about the dreamcast, as it has more than just cave. What dc shmups do you recommend that aren't too expensive?

Read my post. i went over all the ones that aren't very expensive (Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, Gunbird 2). You might be able to find Shikigami no Shiro II, Psyvariar 2, Twinkle Star Sprites, maybe Chaos Field (???), Ikaruga, and maybe even Triggerheart Exelica for around $60-$70. Know, however, that they are all available cheaper on other platforms (Ika and THE are even available for X360. download only, tho). I believe that the japanese version of Giga Wing 2 can be found for $50-$60, but it might have changed since I last checked. That's an exclusive, a very good port, and an excellent game, from what I've read. I might be missing a few. Both Zero Gunner 2 and Border Down are over $100, and most of the other DC games are around $80-$100. The system itself is really cheap. I got my last one for around $30, but I've heard it's usually more like $50 these days. To boot imports you download an image that you burn to CD, then you boot to the CD, replace it with your japanese game, and press some button or other to boot it. I can give you more info, if you want.

X360 isn't all CAVE, though, there's also Qute (which is pretty well liked by some on this forum). The wonderpack will get you 4 games for $80 IIRC (Eschatos, Ginga Force, Judgement Silversword, and that other wonderswan game; can't be bothered to look it up ATM), Triangle Service (though their collections are a bit more pricey), G.Rev (Under Defeat HD), and many downloadable games such as Triggerheart Exelica, Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Strania, and others. Plenty of variety, there, even if not quite as much as on the DC.

For price + variety + quantity, japanese PS2 might actually win out, though I think a few of the ports are not exceedingly arcade accurate (Mostly just no slowdown, or too much slowdown, in the case of THE, from what I've heard). A lot of the versions of games there are the cheapest versions, and there's a lot of overlap with the DC library. I haven't looked into the PS2 library, myself, but off hand there's a lot of good Psikyo and CAVE games available, Shiki II (what platform doesn't have Shiki II, anyway?), All of the Psyvariars, Gradius V, and it can play PS1 game

Where can I find these games?

You've bought games before, right? Check the usual places. I don't think you'll find any on playasia, anymore, but ebay and amazon will have most of them

[Squire Grooktook]

X360 isn't all CAVE, though, there's also Qute (which is pretty well liked by some on this forum). The wonderpack will get you 4 games for $80 IIRC (Eschatos, Ginga Force, Judgement Silversword, and that other wonderswan game; can't be bothered to look it up ATM), Triangle Service (though their collections are a bit more pricey), G.Rev (Under Defeat HD), and many downloadable games such as Triggerheart Exelica, Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Strania, and others. Plenty of variety, there, even if not quite as much as on the DC.

Eschatos is to 360 what Mars Matrix is to Dreamcast = It would be worth getting the console for that game alone.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sega Saturn has the best games though. Seriously, get a Saturn.

It has to be said, Zero Gunner 2 is... an okay game, but it's no Guardian Force.

[thelion1856]

Under defeat HD was just released on the US 360 games on demand.

[To Far Away Times]

The one with Futari.

[mehguy]

I think I'll go with a genesis. It the cheapest and I don't have to import.

[Pretas]

360 has the DC beat in quantity but not in consistency of quality.

It has to be said, Zero Gunner 2 is... an okay game, but it's no Guardian Force.

Guardian Force is boring as rocks. Feels like a Compile STG in how it drags on and on with little variety and without putting up much of a challenge. What do people see in it?

By contrast, ZG2 is very concise, and always makes sure to throw a boss or an interesting enemy formation at you right before you start to zone out.

[CulDad78]

I can't believe how many of you continue to answer his questions.