N64 NTSC roms through XRGB-Mini to PAL TV (Picture version)

[Kristian_J]

An updated version of my earlier thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... =50147&e=0 I've done a lot of testing and I've taken some pictures to show what happens.
I would REALLY like you to check out my test video that I've put on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C9fKEsW3ac

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THE TEST SESSION

If I run my N64 PAL through the XRGB everything works fine. If I play a PAL rom from the Everdrive64 through the XRGB everything works fine.

My setup



If I reset the N64 and run a NTSC rom it will load the first picture and freeze the image while the sound is running.

Picture frozen



If I route my N64 straight to the TV and play a NTSC game everything works fine, I get color image and sound.

Now, here's the weird part. If I run the NTSC rom and:

• A. Unplug and then plug the composite back in the XRGB (sometimes)
  B. Change output resolution on the XRGB

I will have a black and white image that runs. It seems that if I force the XRGB to "refresh" it will fix the freeze, but the picture will still be black and white.

My conclusion at this point is that it's an XRGB-Mini issue, seeing that everything works fine when I'm not using the framemeister. There are no issues with the N64 PAL running NTSC roms directly into the TV.

These pictures show how the image looks when it's running but in black and white mode with tear
The diagonal lines are red / blue

[Kristian_J]

Another weird thing, which you can also see in the Youtube video is that when i launch the NTSC game through the Framemeister it changes the resolution to 1440x900_75 and moves the picture out of the screen area into the lower right corner. It doesn't make any sense to me why it would do that, when I have set the output to 1080P_60

[BuckoA51]

basically what we said before, if you run NTSC content on PAL systems, expect issues.

N64 outputs S-Video without any modifications, the Mini has S-Video in so why use composite?

When you get this black and white picture, post up a picture of the full info screen you can get on the mini, I forget what menu it is under, but the one that shows input and output signals.

[Kristian_J]

Thanks. I will post information screendump next time I set it up to freeze.

I've ordered a "N64 / Gamecube / SNES S-Video cable" off Ebay from Honk Kong and I will share the results with you, as soon as i get the cable

[blizzz]

I've ordered a "N64 / Gamecube / SNES S-Video cable" off Ebay from Honk Kong and I will share the results with you, as soon as i get the cable

That is most likely a NTSC cable. The PAL N64 needs some additional components in the S-Video cable.

More info: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

[BuckoA51]

Interesting, anyone selling PAL S-Video cables that you know of?

[blizzz]

You can find some S-Video cables on eBay that are supposedly for PAL consoles. But I don't really trust them as there never was an official S-Video cable in Europe.

Edit: I guess this store might be a good bet: http://www.consolegoods.co.uk/

[Kristian_J]

I'll wait for the cable I ordered, and if it doesn't work, I'll get the PAL version on the site you've linked too. Luckily they aren't that expensive

[Kristian_J]

..now we're entering Twlilight Zone mode.

While waiting for my cable, desperate to get NTSC roms to work, I was clicking through various options I hadn't tried yet. Options that didn't seem to matter, like Zoom and that's when it happend.

It worked



Well... it didn't work perfectly because no matter which settings I used on the Framemeister and on the TV, I could only play in zoom mode, which made the game unplayable :-/

Anyway, the plot thickens. I still hope the S-Video cable will work, but since the framemeister is actually able to play the game with color, I'm afraid it's some bug in the Framemeister that needs a patch from the developers.

I made a youtube video showcasing the "discovery": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF7weQzAMm8
(Mobile camera auto zoom in action, sorry for the blurry image!)

[Fudoh]

the video's private.

[Kristian_J]

Opp sorry. My youtube skill level is about the same as my spoken english skill level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF7weQzAMm8

Should be published for the public now

[Joelepain]

Hi,

seeing your post I made some tests yesterday.
I have a pal n64, but the model nus-001(FRA), not the nus-001(EUR) like yours. They have different video encoder : the FRA can be easily RGB modded but the s-video output is not wired. When I did my rgb mod I added s-video output too.

Yesterday I made some test with the framemeister. I have a 64drive.
Using composite video, when I launch a ntsc rom, my framemeister doesn't freeze like yours, but seems to lose sync with the hdmi output. I have to wait or to press the "video" button to make the framemeister resync. But the image is in black and white like you.
I then tried s-video and it's even worse. it's hard to describe but you have some oblic red/green/blue fringing moving toward the top left corner. If you try to follow the fringes with the eye, it's not really some fringes but some little red-blue-green (sometime yellow) squares shiftted each row.

If you hadn't post about the zoom trick, I would have said that the framemeister doesn't support PAL60 through composite and s-video. I have another upcaler that Fudoh call "Ligawo RGB to HDMI converter" on his website and it work well. Using a pal game it detects the signal as "PAL" and using a ntsc game it says "PAL N". So the problem isn't the n64.

But now that you've discovered the zoom trick, it really seems to be a bug.
It's a pity that the xgrb doesn't have firmware updates more often because it has a lot of potential. We don't even know if the remaining bug are unfixable, or if Micomsoft doesn't have the ressources to fix the bugs, or if they don't care.

[Kristian_J]

From what I've read it does seem that they update the Framemeister form time to time, but I guess a small company will have limited resources for updating AND developing new products at the same time.

Also, this problem is kinda unique seeing you have to have the ED64 running an NTSC rom on a PAL system I guess Micomsoft would need to have the same setup in order to make a patch with a solution, and since they're locate din Japan i doubt the have a PAL N64 and TV available.

Anyway, I'm also afraid that the S-Video cable won't fix the issue. Can you play the NTSC rom on a RGB modded PAL machine through the XRGB-Mini?

[Joelepain]

The problem is not so unique. It's just sending an unconventional signal (ntsc timing with pal color coding, or vice versa) through composite or s-video.
I wouldn't be surprise if the xrgb couldn't handle it at all, because I have seen other system that can't. For example I remember my dad having a Sony 32" 16/9 100hz CRT TV which could handle ntsc trhough composite but not through s-video. I think Nintendo advised to use 60hz on PAL Gamecube only with the RGB Scart cable. Maybe it's the reason they removed the s-video out on PAL Gamecube.
But the trick with the zoom that you found prooves that the xrgb can handle it but there is a bug somewhere.

NTSC rom on a RGB modded PAL machine works quite well on the mini. I played a translated rom of sin and punishment like that.
You still have some little problems but nothing really bad.
For example the games are running near 61hz instead of the conventional 59.94hz. The mini seems to convert it back to 59.94hz so there is very little stutter but it's really hard to see. And the n64 doesn't have a lot of shmups so it's really not a big deal.
The black levels are not the same between ntsc and pal but it's ajustable through the mini color setting.
When playing a ntsc rom, the mini seems to not detect transitions between 240p and 480i, so the image is going from very steady to a little shacking or vice versa depending on the deinterlacing applied. BUT if it worked well, there would still be the long hdmi handshake problem, so all in all...

Your main problem is I don't remember if the nus-001(EUR) models are easily RGB moddable.

[Kristian_J]

Your main problem is I don't remember if the nus-001(EUR) models are easily RGB moddable.

Did a fast Google search and it seems that the nus-001(EUR) isn't mod-able :-/

I did a comparison of NTSC vs PAL releases and most of the games that aren't released as PAL I can easily live without, but there are 3-4 titles I HAVE to play, Like Harvest Moon, Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine and Ogre Battle.

Guess I'll have to keep an eye out for an modded box on Ebay, where they apparently charge £100 pr unit

[blizzz]

Did a fast Google search and it seems that the nus-001(EUR) isn't mod-able :-/

You can mod all N64 units for RGB output as far as I know. It's just a bit more work / more expensive for the later revisions. A guy on a German forum (circuit-board) designed a board for the mod. No idea if there are modders that offer it in other countries.

[Kristian_J]

I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to mod my current machine and I don't want to spend a £100 for a modded machine, just to play 3 titles. Well, not at the moment.

I will return with feedback as soon as I've received and tested my S-Video cable, though I doubt that will solve the issue :-/

Thumbs up for replies / feedback

[BuckoA51]

Yes you can mod RGB mod all models of the N64 now thanks to this little expansion board - http://www.otakus-store.net/en/content/ ... or-all-kit

Just get it RGB modded, there are no cosmetic alterations to the outside of the console and it only effects the resale value positively. Really there's no rational reason not to.

[Kristian_J]

The cable didn't do the trick, however the quality was AMAZING so it was well worth the money

Here's a screen comparison.