Capturing - Framemeister-based and VGA PC

[CkRtech]

Hey all -

I have been bouncing back and forth between some threads regarding capture here, and I decided to just start a new topic. Here is the gist of it -

I have an xrgb Framemeister. I am interested in capturing gameplay of consoles ranging from the Atari 2600 all the way up to PS3+ as well as DOS games from a vintage PC with VGA output. At first I was looking for all-inclusive standalone options, and they just weren't appearing - at least for a fair price.

But now I figure - Why NOT use the Framemeister? This should ideally cut me down to only needing a recording device (internal card, external, or otherwise) with an HDMI input on it that can hit 1080p30, maybe 720p60 (not as important), and of course a bonus for 1080p60 (but not required at all). In addition, I need to get VGA output from a DOS PC.

My questions are -
1: Is there a single, go to device to use for this application
2: Should I still consider separate solutions for capturing HDMI vs. capturing VGA? In other words, would I be compromising my HDMI capture quality/features by getting something that also has VGA?

Thanks guys,
CK

[Ed Oscuro]

PEXHDCAP does HDMI/VGA, doesn't it?

[Fudoh]

it certainly does. Probably the best solution.

[CkRtech]

Thanks guys!

[blizzz]

The PEXHDCAP can't record consoles in 1080p. It can handle 1080p30, but it can't downsample a 1080p60 input to 30fps like some other cards do. The SC-512N1 can handle 1080p60, but it costs a lot more.

A cheaper alternative for 1080p would be the AVerMedia C127 that can record 1080p60 as 1080p30. I don't know how well that card can handle non-standard refresh rates though.

[darcagn]

Personally, I use the elgato Game Capture HD to capture and record from my XRGB-mini. It has easy to use software for both Windows and Mac, can do Twitch and YouTube livestreaming (both of which I have tested out with the Framemeister; works very well), hardware encoding support for h.264, with video editing built in. It has lagless HDMI passthrough, so I leave it hooked up 24/7 behind my AV furniture, and when I want to capture or livestream, I just pull the USB cable (which has a USB extension cable connected so it can go the length of my living room) out and plug into my laptop, hit the "record" or "stream" button, and I'm in action. No need to hook up or unhook a single thing other than that one USB cable.

(Re: 1080p60, the Game Capture HD will passthrough 60fps, but will only record at 30fps. In 720p mode it will do both recording and passthrough at 60fps though)

[blizzz]

The Elgato HD is also my personal favorite for recording HDMI, but it doesn't do VGA.

[darcagn]

That's true, however, since he's using a Framemeister, he should be able to use a Kenzei or other sync combiner device to connect the DOS box via the RGB-in port.

[Ed Oscuro]

The PEXHDCAP can't record consoles in 1080p.

How many console games up to the PS3 actually output 1080p60?

[blizzz]

The PEXHDCAP can't record consoles in 1080p.

How many console games up to the PS3 actually output 1080p60?

That are actually good? I'd say 3. (Wipeout and the two Rayman games)

He wrote "PS3+", so I interpret that as PS3 now and PS4 in the future. StarTech listed the card as 1080p capable in the past. They have updated their website by now, but Amazon still lists "Full 1080p Video Capture" as a feature.

[Ed Oscuro]

He wrote "PS3+", so I interpret that as PS3 now and PS4 in the future.

I would think he just would have written PS4 then. PS3+ might mean "and the 360." In any case, sure, 1080p60 is a good idea for mild future-proofing - though paying a huge premium for that when it's not going to be used much seems like a bad use of money. I wouldn't pay a lot of money for a 1080p60 capturing solution now, unless I could actually make money off it. As I've said elsewhere, 1080p60 files can be enormous.

[CkRtech]

Thank you for all the responses, guys. My PS3+ meant to cover PS3 onward. I do not currently have a PS4, but I suspect I will pick one up this year.

That Elgato Game Capture HD sounds pretty slick. I guess that falls into my original question #2 about separate solutions for VGA vs HDMI. More specifically - should I look to convert VGA into something easily useable for the xrgb and then just push that into an HDMI capture device? It sounds like the Elgato might be the way to go, and I should do what is needed to feed the VGA into the xrgb and the rest will handle itself.

Based on what you guys have stated, it sounds like 1080p60 shouldn't be anything worth worrying about.

Really appreciate the feedback, guys. Thanks for taking the time to write.

[Sixfortyfive]

I'd advise against any USB 2.0 device if it can be avoided. Forced hardware encoding can be mildly to severely irritating depending on your needs.

I should get around to seeing how the Avermedia Extremecap stacks up sometime. That would be my first suggestion for an external device if it's as good as I assume it is.

[blizzz]

The benefit of the Elgato HD is that it simply works. You can keep it in your video chain, even when you're not recording and the software is quite nice.

The ExtremeCap U3 has the big problem that it only works on selected USB3 chipsets. And from the reviews it seems like it isn't stable even when you have a supported USB3 port.

Personally I'd either go for an internal card for best quality and low delay or an external USB2 encoder for ease of use. Internal cards will tax your CPU more and will obviously require a PC, external USB2 devices sacrifice quality and add delay which can be a problem for live streaming.

[eightbitminiboss]

The benefit of the Elgato HD is that it simply works. You can keep it in your video chain, even when you're not recording and the software is quite nice.

The ExtremeCap U3 has the big problem that it only works on selected USB3 chipsets. And from the reviews it seems like it isn't stable even when you have a supported USB3 port.

Personally I'd either go for an internal card for best quality and low delay or an external USB2 encoder for ease of use. Internal cards will tax your CPU more and will obviously require a PC, external USB2 devices sacrifice quality and add delay which can be a problem for live streaming.

That's what put me off on the Elgato, I use the live feed view to monitor any issues, and that long delay is just hard to look at.

The USB 3.0 chipset issue is less and less of an issue with more motherboards coming out and usually using the same supported chipsets.

[Sixfortyfive]

The benefit of the Elgato HD is that it simply works.

In a Windows environment, USB2 devices tend to have poor software support because they're rarely DirectShow compliant. The authors of video editing and livestreaming programs have to put in extra work to support each of those individual devices, whereas every USB3 device I know of will work out of the box as long as the software implements the DirectShow API (and any competent Windows video editor will).

Hang around the Open Broadcaster Software forums for a while and you'll see Jim rant about how much he hates that USB2 capture cards are the most prevalent.

If you're satisfied with the packaged software, this is less relevant, but if you've already got a host of programs you like to use then you should make sure the device is supported.

[blizzz]

I guess it depends on your use case. If you want to record and store your gameplay then the Elgato does exactly that. No need to reencode for archiving and the software makes it easy to cut the video.

For livestreaming it's not the first (or second) choice though.

[darcagn]

The only issue I've had so far with the elgato Game Capture HD is that I can't combine audio captured from a separate source (specifically, S/PDIF). I wouldn't expect this to be a feature, though. I hate any buzz, no matter how small, that SCART cables have. I purchased a Monoprice device that accept DVI video sources and injects the audio stream from S/PDIF to output HDMI, and I tried to use that to capture the digital audio instead of the analog audio, but with my S/PDIF SNES, it sounds like it may be dropping or adding frames as it makes a sort of popping sound (I'm guessing it doesn't work properly with the SNES's slightly irregular sample rate).

I might have to pick up a cheap $15 S/PDIF -> analog RCA converter and use that for capturing, just to eliminate the buzz in captures, but those probably won't work with the SNES's sample rate either... I wish my receiver had a pre-out that I could use.

[CkRtech]

My plan is to record and store gameplay. I'll edit it together in separate software that I already own. I haven't really considered live streaming. Seems like elgato might work for me...I still haven't pulled the trigger on anything. Enjoying the discussion.

Not to get too OT, but darcagn - have you considered pulling the analog output of the SNES prior to the multiout and running it to separate RCA jacks? Or do you feel that the DAC in the SNES is just terrible anyway?

[darcagn]

Not to get too OT, but darcagn - have you considered pulling the analog output of the SNES prior to the multiout and running it to separate RCA jacks? Or do you feel that the DAC in the SNES is just terrible anyway?

It sounds awesome if I plug the S/PDIF directly into my receiver, so that's how I play games, which is fine. It's just that the elgato will be getting the audio from the SCART cable that has a slight buzz. I could mount RCA jacks, though, and use those for whenever I'm capturing, but the SNES is just one console of many and I wouldn't want to have to do that for every single one...

I don't find that the SNES's DAC is terrible, honestly, I can barely hear the difference in quality although it's hard to do a comparison because when I switch input sources between S/PDIF and analog, the volumes are at different levels. The nice difference is not getting buzz and hiss. I really love 8-bit and 16-bit music, I have a pretty nice sound system, and I live in a house by myself, so I crank the volume up pretty high. Digital stuff sounds way clearer in this scenario and doesn't have any buzz and very little hiss.

[CkRtech]

I have been sitting on that cirrus logic chip (have it right here) for a couple of months now, but I haven't gotten around to attempting the mod. I have a home theater/gaming setup, so I have digital inputs just begging for SNES goodness (assuming the odd bitrate isn't a problem).

Does your receiver have an audio "monitor out" line level RCA output? You could use the receiver itself as your DAC and take whatever it spits out from the analog output as your in for capture.

Hmm. Might be faced with the same dilemma myself when I inevitably go to capture SNES footage (provided I do a digital audio mod as well)

[darcagn]

I have been sitting on that cirrus logic chip (have it right here) for a couple of months now, but I haven't gotten around to attempting the mod. I have a home theater/gaming setup, so I have digital inputs just begging for SNES goodness (assuming the odd bitrate isn't a problem).

Does your receiver have an audio "monitor out" line level RCA output? You could use the receiver itself as your DAC and take whatever it spits out from the analog output as your in for capture.

Hmm. Might be faced with the same dilemma myself when I inevitably go to capture SNES footage (provided I do a digital audio mod as well)

Nope, it doesn't have preouts. I also tried putting the Game Capture HD between the receiver and the TV instead of between the Framemeister and the receiver, but when I do that, nothing works at all (nothing appears on the television and the capture card just gets a black screen).

[darcagn]

So, I found a solution to this problem.

I looked online and researched cheap SPDIF-to-RCA DACs that used chips that were known to have good jitter handling. I arrived at the FiiO D3 (D03K) Digital to Analog Audio Converter - 192kHz/24bit Optical and Coaxial DAC for $27.99 (Prime-eligible) on Amazon. It also can accept power via USB so you can avoid having to use another wall wart if you have a component in your setup that has a powered USB port available.

It works and sounds great! I captured some footage with it.

The Framemeister can accept audio through its RCA jacks while in RGB mode by changing a simple setting. This is how I have it set up, when I capture at least. When I'm not capturing, I set the S/PDIF back up to my receiver.

[Fudoh]

sounds good!

Your video shows a few (minor) problems though. A bit of vertical banding (is it a an American 1CHIP-03 ?) - fixable with the capacitor mod to the SNES. A bit of noise (fixable by adjusting the A/D level setting on the Mini) and finally your black levels are too high, so either you have a range conversion happening at some point without using the correct settings or your Mini's black level is simply set to high.

[darcagn]

sounds good!

Your video shows a few (minor) problems though. A bit of vertical banding (is it a an American 1CHIP-03 ?) - fixable with the capacitor mod to the SNES. A bit of noise (fixable by adjusting the A/D level setting on the Mini) and finally your black levels are too high, so either you have a range conversion happening at some point without using the correct settings or your Mini's black level is simply set to high.

Hey Fudoh, thanks for watching and giving my your critique. Yes, it's an American 1CHIP-03. This capture is actually the first time I've noticed vertical banding on this SNES, which is weird, because I've looked for it on this SNES before with FFIII. I don't know if anything could have changed it (I've since S/PDIF-modded my SNES... maybe somehow having something else in the system affected it negatively? Come to think of it, I don't think I added a decoupling capacitor to the Cirrus chip...). I'll have to crack it open and do some testing soon.

Regarding the noise, I adjusted the A/D level and got it to go away. It was never visible on my Plasma TV, though, only in the capture. What's the best way to adjust the A/D level to the proper level? I noticed the lower the value, the darker the picture, higher the value, brighter the picture. In regards to the noise, as I adjust it, it gets better and worse and better and worse as I adjust the value, like cyclically. So I don't really understand to what level I'm supposed to adjust it.

Regarding black levels, what makes you say that the black level is too high? Final Fantasy III's title screen and the initial opening intro have a grey/brownish background, so that part isn't supposed to be black. Later on in the video when the scenes fade out to black and back in again, you can see that the black is at the same level as the sidebars. Or am I missing something?

[Fudoh]

What's the best way to adjust the A/D level to the proper level?

there isn't. It usually has to be readjusted from game to game, depending on the color palette used. When you altered your setting, you probably just moved the noise from one color to another, but moving it from - let's say - the background color - to some color used only for a few pixels on some sprites is still better.

Or am I missing something?

no, you're probably right. Downloaded your clip and played it back with PC level output and it was fine. It was really just that FF3 base color that was irritating me. Never mind.

[darcagn]

What's the best way to adjust the A/D level to the proper level?

there isn't. It usually has to be readjusted from game to game, depending on the color palette used. When you altered your setting, you probably just moved the noise from one color to another, but moving it from - let's say - the background color - to some color used only for a few pixels on some sprites is still better.

Ah, that makes sense and fits into what I observed. Thanks.

Or am I missing something?

no, you're probably right. Downloaded your clip and played it back with PC level output and it was fine. It was really just that FF3 base color that was irritating me. Never mind.

Haha, no problem.

[CkRtech]

Have you guys captured HDCP material (like from ps3) on your various capture devices by attaching them via the framemeister?

[Sixfortyfive]

I use a cheap HDMI2HDMI+Audio device to strip HDCP. Those things will fuck up the color if you don't feed them RGB, and the audio breakout & passthrough can be kind of wonky for anything but stereo, but it gets the job done.

[blizzz]

The XCapture can't capture in "original resolution". You get a perfect line alignment, but the sampling on the horizontal is completely off when you capture "whatever you get" in 720 pixels width. Uploading videos to YT in 240p is a no-go, so you'd anyway be upscaling in software while processing and in my experience (I have a XCapture) this doesn't look as good as directly capturing in 720p.

[...]

It's actually quite obvious.

(click for context of that quote)

Let's see how that statement holds.

First, the classic RGB capture in 240p but with a fixed horizontal pixel width (SC-500N1). Notice the perfect vertical sharpness, but also the horizontal blur.


Now the same scene with a glorious Framemeister. Huh, that screenshot has a lot more horizontal blur.

[version with low-pass filter]

So what's better overall? I'd say the SC-500N1 capture because it's sharper. But that is actually useless. The image was scaled to 2880p (4K is the past ) to show the pixels. And that's where I can do a trick with the SC-500N1: I can use nearest neighbor scaling on the horizontal axis to get sharp pixels. It works because the scaling factor is a "huge" integer. But that's not what we would use a capture card for. The reality is that there is no winner in this category. If you want to show the sprites you have to use an emulator, unless someone finds a capture solution that manages a perfect pixel mapping.

But what should we care about? At the moment, I'd say the most important resolution is 1280x720. That's a nice integer scale from 240p and also the optimal resolution for the Framemeister. So you can play and record at the same time. Also you need at least 720p to get a high enough bitrate on Youtube's encoder. So here are the 720p images.

SC-500N1 with nearest neighbor scaling as above
First, this is what happens when you use nearest neighbor scaling on the horizontal axis without an integer factor: You get colums that have a different width. Look at the "TM". This is ugly and you should avoid it.

SC-500N1 with Lanczos3 scaling
Now this is most likely what you want for video content. It's not as sharp, but the minimal blur is better than the mess from before.

Framemeister
Framemeister with low-pass filter
And this is the Framemeister. The lines look a bit more solid, but overall not a huge difference. Plus you have the option to use a low-pass filter. It does seem to be more sensitive to noise, which is not necessarily negative. It just gives you a better representation of your signal. If you want better picture quality get a better signal (cable, mods etc).

So, overall who's the winner? I'd say the Framemeister is the better choice by a tiny bit, but it won't give you pixel perfect sharp sprites. Both are good options and it comes down to how you want to use them. Capturing a Framemeister requires another 100€+ device to actually capture the HDMI video. A capture card can't be integrated (easily) into a living room gaming corner. Pick whatever you prefer.

Edit: I noticed that other sites link to this thread. Please note that there are 2 issues with the screenshots I posted from the Framemeister. First of all, the cable I used wasn't great. I've replaced it and the noise is gone. Secondly, there were issues with the color space with my capture card that I fixed in later screenshots. Have a look at this post for fixed screenshots: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&p=1026564
The screenshots there are still slightly off because I had the wrong mode selected on the Framemeister.