Sh3 reprint, recycle, repeat

[el chuddo]

Cave sh3 hardware is universally used by Cave for all of their arcade games from 2004 to 2007 (CV1000B). What I mean is: if they wanted to reprint a new or desirable game on unsold or undesirable pcb stock.. They did! It may have gone on beyond 2007, but the SH3b (CV1000D) 2008-2012, does not seem to have any examples of such. If there is any, someone please post and explain. Thanks!

EDIT: upon closer looks, this is also prevalent among SH3B, but with correct stickers always used on both top and bottom of the boards. The 4 digit #'s (sometimes) etched on the pcb's and the chips (silver or black) used are the only tell-tale signs. As RTW pointed out in a later post, there is going to be evidence of a # etched on the pcb under the serial # sticker as well.

Thanks to all the Shmups members who have been kind enough to help me figure out what I am about to say. The info is just not on the internet to find in an easy way.

Some of the SH3 games got their own dedicated boards printed. Some of the games did not have their own print and were printed on unsold board stock or on pcbs that were sent in for version change or ultimately full game change. Cave has the power to easily change them at any time, I'd like to point out that Ibara Kuro and Mushihimesama Futari Black Label (Japan Ver.) do not have their own dedicated boards that were printed for those games. Cave was resourceful enough to use it's stock even if it didn't sell in a specific guise. Seems like history repeats itself currently, with the "shooting collection" packages.

Every single Ibara Kuro that I have seen pics of, or seen in person, is a MushihimeTama that was reprogrammed by Cave. The first pcb's also received a new Cave sticker with IB-# instead of M-#. 1st print has 2 black stamps on the bottom of the pcb.. a black stamp designating the date it was a Tama ('05) and another black stamp with the date it became an Ibara Kuro. As far as #'s for the 1st run of those pcb's (how many?..100?, 150?).. or is tha supposed to be the total??? That 1st print also has an IBARA sticker over the alterra chip. If you look closely, some boards show that the bottom of the letters TAMA stick out from under that sticker. There are also many Ibara Kuro boards that are not stickered to look like anything other than a Mushi Tama, and they have 2 stamps on the bottom. 1 black (when it was programmed into a Tama in '05) and a red stamp.. when it became Ibara Kuro. Those could be the ones "made to order" that EOJ was calculating this in a thread, but there is no conclusion in the posts. There is another syle that has IB-# stickers, an IBARA sticker over "MUSHI TAMA" on the Altera chip, and then on the bottom of the board, there is a black stamp ('05 from when it was a TAMA) as well as the red stamp like the M-# boards have. This seems like the last print that was done after the "made to order" boards. Now, these are all official Cave programmed games, but how do you figure production #'s with those variables?

Onto Mushi Futari Black..
Of all the pics and examples I've seen..Those do not have a dedicated board for the Japan version. I think the Another Ver. does.. But let's focus on the Japan ver.
The JP ver are all recycled pcb's too. The ones I have seen were previously, Futari's (1.0 and 1.5), Pink Sweets, and Medal Mah-jongg Moukari Banchou boards. Did you ever notice that they all are printed on CA-#, or MB-# boards? Check the bottom date stickers and the altera chips. You will find that they are inline with these claims. Match them against the games that they were programmed from, and you will find that even though they may be Futari Blacks now, but they were the said games before. No new program dates and no new Cave XX-# stickers. I am guessing that there was also an initial print, boards "made to order", and quite possibly more printed as the case with IBL. This leaves us with no real #'s in terms of production.

These are all limited findings on my part, based on my limited experience with these pcb's. Some of it is fact, but I don't have enough examples or info to give a definitive answer on the subject. Sadly, it will probably remain as private info available only to Cave staff. Hopefully some more experienced Cave heads chime in and enlighten us all. Many of my speculations were changed when a new example presented itself. Thanks in advance to any info provided!

[el chuddo]

This thread by the great MMP shows a chart that designates #'s to each game: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 87#p989187

These #'s are usually on the little altera chip and sometimes has a sticker over it that "covers up" the old game's #.

You can sometimes see what your board used to be with this #.
My Ibara was a recycled Mushihimesama. I had no other stickers or #'s to learn that before obtaining this list.

I can provide some pics to support these claims if needed, but don't have a ton of time ATM.

[geekmiki]

Interesting, my Ibara is also a CA011 (Mushihimesama)... Without the serial connector that Mushihimesama boards have. Do you think they would have bothered removing them when recycling the boards? One possible explanation would be that they still had some unused hardware left from the Mushi production that was used for Ibara, since these games were released one after the other.

EDIT: I've been looking at Ibara pictures and all of them seem to have the Altera chip with CA011... So I guess my explanation could be possible.

[el chuddo]

Yes, sorry, I should have said possibly unused or unprogrammed board stock as well..not every pcb is a game recycle. Possibly was never a mushi, and never got the serial connector, but WAS the same stock of circuit boards before programming (designated by the CA011 on the altera chip). Impossible to check dates of stickers on bottom to see because their are none.. At least on all the ones that I have seen. Both Mushi and ibara do usually all have little orange vol. pots and brass connectors with anonymous Cave #### stickers.

EDIT: as pointed out in a later post, Mushi was reprinted without the serial connector after that first run that has it.

There's a guy on this forum that has an ibara (3rd), that was an ibara black label with an IB # sticker (2nd).. Of course it was a Mushi Tama (1st). Serious game changing on 1 board. Also, pretty sure there is a guy who's Mushi Futari BL was a 1.0, then a 1.5, then a BlaCk.. With dates designating the 1.0 to 1.5 change, but as stated in the 1st post.. The black doesn't have a date stamp.. At least on the several CA-# pcbs I've seen pics of. Maybe the MB-# pcbs are different. Hopefully someone with that sticker will post.

[brentsg]

I wouldn't put too much stock in Cave serial numbers. They seem quite random, and I recall EOJ saying something to that effect with some actual evidence.

[el chuddo]

I wouldn't put too much stock in Cave serial numbers. They seem quite random, and I recall EOJ saying something to that effect with some actual evidence.

Me neither! Very little stock in those yet in the discussion, although not completely discounted.. and I will post those findings later (must get some sleep). I was referring more to the letters associated with the beginning of those serial #'s telling us something, and that in the case of Mushi and Ibara, they tell us almost nothing.. having no letters before the serials and no date stamped stickers on the underside of those CA011 boards. The little date stamped stickers on the underside DO tell quite a bit about release and version. When paired with the CA0## that is on the little altera chip by the battery, we can know even more. I will try and get some pics together soon as well..

[Dave_K.]

Interesting, my Ibara is also a CA011 (Mushihimesama)... Without the serial connector that Mushihimesama boards have. Do you think they would have bothered removing them when recycling the boards? One possible explanation would be that they still had some unused hardware left from the Mushi production that was used for Ibara, since these games were released one after the other.

EDIT: I've been looking at Ibara pictures and all of them seem to have the Altera chip with CA011... So I guess my explanation could be possible.

There were definitely two print runs of Mushihimesama, first with the serial connector, and another without. I had one without the connector and it was still the original buggy release. So possible some of these later Mushi's were recycled for Ibara, but doubt they ever recycled them from the first run boards.

[el chuddo]

Interesting, my Ibara is also a CA011 (Mushihimesama)... Without the serial connector that Mushihimesama boards have. Do you think they would have bothered removing them when recycling the boards? One possible explanation would be that they still had some unused hardware left from the Mushi production that was used for Ibara, since these games were released one after the other.

EDIT: I've been looking at Ibara pictures and all of them seem to have the Altera chip with CA011... So I guess my explanation could be possible.

There were definitely two print runs of Mushihimesama, first with the serial connector, and another without. I had one without the connector and it was still the original buggy release. So possible some of these later Mushi's were recycled for Ibara, but doubt they ever recycled them from the first run boards.

Thanks so much Dave K. for shedding more light on this!
This is great stuff to know! I hope more "veterans of Cave pcb specifics" continue to bring light to this stuff.
Anyone, pllease add info if you know or speculate something in relation to the topic.
I know it is boring and over-specific to some.. borderline insane..
..but very interesting and seemingly very little info is out there on these specifics.

[Phellan Wolf]

So it turns out that Cave Bootleged their own boards????
LoL
Sorry for the joke buddy but they've got then a firm punch.

[trap15]

CV1000 boards were recycled like crazy. I'd be surprised if you could find a board that hasn't been recycled, even. My Ibara board is a Mushihimesama Futari conversion, for example, so they didn't even just recycle forwards.

[el chuddo]

CV1000 boards were recycled like crazy. I'd be surprised if you could find a board that hasn't been recycled, even. My Ibara board is a Mushihimesama Futari conversion, for example, so they didn't even just recycle forwards.

Thanks trap15! That is an example I hadn't heard of yet.. Is it on a CA-# board with silver jamma connectors? Also, is there 1 date stamp on the bottom of the pcb, or multiples?.. What color stamp(s)?

Most of my 2004-2007 SH3's are recycled.. But Pink Sweets doesn't seem to be.. All the stickers and stamps are inline with release date and CA014 on the altera chip. This is from Cave's high point in terms of output, and do understand that the CAVE CA-#### boards were used for PS and Futari, but without getting a revision or game change, a 1st version PS may be the only NON-recycled Coin battery style SH3 game

Some pcb's seem to have just got completely new stickers all over that hides evidence of another game.. even new stickers over the CA0## that is sometimes on the altera chip. They do not reveal more than 1 date stamp on the bottom, and it seems to correspond with release date..(ex. MMP). I'm wondering if those were CV1000's that never got programmed, but can't tell because the sticker over the altera chip hides the previous #.. if there even is one there.

I had thought that the SH3B stuff looked pretty specific to 1 game or another before, until recently I began to notice 2 things:
The main thing that stands out, is that DDP DFK BL looks like it has some silver chips that are usually black on most SH3B's.. and the silver chips are also on SOME of the Akai Katana boards, and SOME of the Saidaioujou boards.. but not all. Does this show that maybe they had to do special pcb's with custom chips to handle DFK BL?.. and then used some unsold DFK BL pcb's (or that boardstock) for some AK boards and some of the SDO boards even though they didn't require these chips as the DFK BL possibly did? Or did the chip stock just happen to be silver sometimes or at 1 point? Also, some of these SH3B (and SH3) have a 4 digit # etched onto the pcb that varies from game to game, and is or isn't on all of a specific game. For ex. some SDO's have the 4 digit # and some don't.

EDIT: added SH3B chip and # specifics

[trap15]

Oh sorry, I didn't know we meant actual board markings! I know that my Ibara has Mushihimesama Futari sound ROMs that were converted to Ibara sound ROMs, at the least, since there is still some of the old sound data on there. I don't think my board's markings are different from most Ibara boards though. I'd have to pull it out and look again.

And a mild picking that I hate having to keep saying but I'm going to keep doing so until people change (haha, I can try, right? ): The boards are called "CV1000", not SH3. The first board revision is CV1000-B and second is CV1000-D.

My understanding is that all CV1000-B boards are exactly the same aside from ROM contents, and same within CV1000-D, and the only difference between the two is the amount of RAM (maybe some other things?). Any difference in visual capability is either due to better use of the blitter, or a different microcode uploaded to the graphics FPGA (which essentially means the blitter's behavior could be entirely different between two games on the same board; in reality, they're only minorly different, if at all).

[Jockel]

Here's hoping that some dude figures out a way to convert these boards for the end user.

[austere]

It's quite straight-forward to convert the game code (and fpga bit stream by extension) and graphics but it isn't clear if there is a non-invasive way to change the sound ROM. I will hopefully take a close look at it at the end of the year.

[Jockel]

I'm not afraid of paying somebody for soldering a few flash chips into place.

[xMetalliCx]

or a different microcode uploaded to the graphics FPGA (which essentially means the blitter's behavior could be entirely different between two games on the same board; in reality, they're only minorly different, if at all).

actually, starting from Futari 1.0 all games uses the same microcode.

there are only 3 microcode revisions:
- 1st used in Espgaluda2, Mishisama first rev and Mushitama
- 2nd used in newer Mushisamas and Ibara
- 3rd used in all rest games

[trap15]

Yeah, I was actually referring to that. I'm curious if these actually behave differently though. Maybe a bugfix or performance tweaks? Curious

[austere]

Curious

One day we're just going to have to reverse engineere Altera's bitstream for Cyclones [... you know where to look ].

[rtw]

Oh sorry, I didn't know we meant actual board markings! I know that my Ibara has Mushihimesama Futari sound ROMs that were converted to Ibara sound ROMs, at the least, since there is still some of the old sound data on there.

When CAVE converted the various CV1000 PCBs they would have to resolder the sound ROMs. Normal procedure is to desolder the old FLASH, throw it away and then solder on new pre-programmed ones. How do you know there is still Futari code in yours trap15 ?

And a mild picking that I hate having to keep saying but I'm going to keep doing so until people change (haha, I can try, right? ):

I also have a mild picking and that is that CAVE should be spelled in uppercase, it is an acronym for: Computer Art Visual Entertainment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAVE_%28company%29)

My understanding is that all CV1000-B boards are exactly the same aside from ROM contents, and same within CV1000-D, and the only difference between the two is the amount of RAM (maybe some other things?).

The FLASH size changed as well.

But CAVE did several layouts of the CV1000 PCB. If you look at the soldermask and finishing on the PCBs you will see differences. There is a PCB production number underneath the label. Look at the picture at the bottom of the page here: http://www.world-of-arcades.net/Cave/Ha ... rdware.htm

The FPGA version varied as well. Between the two TAMA versions there is a change in the FPGA code.

CAVE have tools so that they can reprogram a PCB but only versions of the same game. The moment the sound data is different they must bring out the solder iron. The sound chips U23 and U24 are only connected to the Yamaha YMZ770C-F.

[trap15]

When CAVE converted the various CV1000 PCBs they would have to resolder the sound ROMs. Normal procedure is to desolder the old FLASH, throw it away and then solder on new pre-programmed ones. How do you know there is still Futari code in yours trap15 ?

When I was messing with reprogramming Ibara, I messed with some of the sound bits in the program and it started playing part (not the whole thing, just part) of the Futari player select theme My guess is that they just re-use Flash chips so that they don't have to buy more (so cheap....)

The FLASH size changed as well.

But CAVE did several layouts of the CV1000 PCB. If you look at the soldermask and finishing on the PCBs you will see differences. There is a PCB production number underneath the label. Look at the picture at the bottom of the page here: http://www.world-of-arcades.net/Cave/Ha ... rdware.htm

The FPGA version varied as well. Between the two TAMA versions there is a change in the FPGA code.

Aha, neato.

CAVE have tools so that they can reprogram a PCB but only versions of the same game. The moment the sound data is different they must bring out the solder iron. The sound chips U23 and U24 are only connected to the Yamaha YMZ770C-F.

Yup, that was my guess

[yosai]

MAME Protip: If you put the Kuro U2 & U4 in to a regular Ibara zip you will hear part of the Mushihimesama music on the ship select screen.

The MAME team either dumped a converted board or it's a programming leftover.

[Cee]

MAME Protip: If you put the Kuro U2 & U4 in to a regular Ibara zip you will hear part of the Mushihimesama music on the ship select screen.

The MAME team either dumped a converted board or it's a programming leftover.

How on earth did you discover that?

[el chuddo]

Thank you rtw for these amazing technical specifics.. Without you, I do believe this knowledge would be impossible to come across. It seems that every time something seems to have no available info, there you are with clear-cut answers. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

Thanks trap for continuing to shed light on this as well. You guys really run the show here on this forum and everyone here is in your debt. Glad to see you guys sharing this information.

..on an unrelated side note: I am working on more details in regards to serial #'s, but have been very busy with work, so it's going slow. Thanks again to all that have posted or have been kind enough to answer my pm's on the subject.

[yosai]

MAME Protip: If you put the Kuro U2 & U4 in to a regular Ibara zip you will hear part of the Mushihimesama music on the ship select screen.

The MAME team either dumped a converted board or it's a programming leftover.

How on earth did you discover that?

I was going to flash Kuro over my Ibara PCB and decided to check in MAME how it would sound without the correct audio data.

[el chuddo]

Regarding pcb's that have serial #'s that actually mean something.
There may be more examples, but I am gonna focus on 2 games here: Ibara Kuro and Dodonpachi Saidaioujou. Both of which received 2 known printings and boards "made to order" from Cave (whether direct, or through a middleman supplier).

Also, both of these games are probably parallel in their limited production #'s. I have had a little help from some of you in these particular findings.. Sorry if my examples are very limited. Thanks to those who helped!..

I cannot give actual production #'s for either game, because I am unaware of what the last # for each was.. maybe the owners of these pcb's can post their #'s to finally narrow this down further. Also, the "made to order" Kuro boards did not get an IB- ### sticker, but Cave may have taken those pcb's into account when they numbered the 2nd print.

So, starting with Ibara Kuro, I have seen a confirmed 2nd print IB-180 and am aware of a board numbered as high as: IB-237.
I'm in possession of a 1st print board that is: IB-063 and have seen another confirmed 1st print board: IB-067. It would be nice to know what the highest 1st print board is.
I have read that there is more likely bout 300 Ibara Kuro pcb's in existence, and that seems pretty realistic.. given these examples.
I'm sure we could figure out specifics as finely tuned as: 1st print #'s (start and ending) as well as 2nd print #'s (start and ending).
These findings may reveal something about the # of "made to order" pcb's that don't have an IB-### sticker.
EOJ began the research, and am guessing it got old for him too, considering how helpful everyone can be. 1 thread with his research seemed to point to around 150-160 Kuro's, but shows nothing of print variation, so tough to tell.
Also, it would be nice if any willing participants could specify, pcb # , date stamp color, and whether it is a kit. Also, further specification of a kit with a stickered box or not, and whether it came with a poster. Thanks so much in advance to anyone willing to spend a minute checking those specifics out. No pics needed, just info.. Thanks!

Onto the last Cave pcb "shoot them up" offering.. the amazing: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou.
This pcb had 2 official printings (April 2012 and June 2012) and also "made to order" boards. I have a first print pcb that is:
SDO 00065. I can only speculate that other 1st print pcb's also have #'s beginning with "0". How high they go, I don't know. Please feel free to post here any specifics. The date on bottom will be April 2012 as well for 1st print SDO's.
All of the pcb's after the 1st print seem to have the same tell-tale #, which is a "1" at the beginning of the serial's 5 digits, as well as the date stamps from June 2012. The last digits are the actual #'s if I am not mistaken. This seems realistic, due to the fact that my late June SDO kit that I ordered was: SDO 10255, or more accurately, #255. This also seems to be inline with the said "low" print #'s that this game received. Even more inline with a 300 or less total, similar to what Kuro is speculated to be.
Like I said, I could be much more certain about this stuff and maybe even find a total, but I would really need more info contributions from the owners of these pcb's. Thanks in advance for any help.

[cools]

Coming soon to a forum near you, accurate "First print" kuro conversions.

[brentsg]

Regarding pcb's that have serial #'s that actually mean something.
There may be more examples, but I am gonna focus on 2 games here: Ibara Kuro and Dodonpachi Saidaioujou. Both of which received 2 known printings and boards "made to order" from Cave (whether direct, or through a middleman supplier).

I'm just not sold on Cave having paid as much detail to their serial numbers as you suspect.

I had many of the games in my cab within a day or so of places like Hey putting it on the floor, so I definitely had the "first print" as you word it. A lot of those serial numbers are simply nonsense. I haven't gone digging, but my Mushi Matsuri 1.5 board is handy and numbered 20005. Using your method, prospective buyers would characterize that as a later production than the first ones due to the 2. Of course the sticker on the back would suggest otherwise.

I'm not trying to shoot down your theories, just temper your expectations. I find the inner workings of Cave curious as well.

[el chuddo]

Regarding pcb's that have serial #'s that actually mean something.
There may be more examples, but I am gonna focus on 2 games here: Ibara Kuro and Dodonpachi Saidaioujou. Both of which received 2 known printings and boards "made to order" from Cave (whether direct, or through a middleman supplier).

I'm just not sold on Cave having paid as much detail to their serial numbers as you suspect.

I had many of the games in my cab within a day or so of places like Hey putting it on the floor, so I definitely had the "first print" as you word it. A lot of those serial numbers are simply nonsense. I haven't gone digging, but my Mushi Matsuri 1.5 board is handy and numbered 20005. Using your method, prospective buyers would characterize that as a later production than the first ones due to the 2. Of course the sticker on the back would suggest otherwise.

I'm not trying to shoot down your theories, just temper your expectations. I find the inner workings of Cave curious as well.

Glad to see another curious party! I knew I wasn't the only one who finds this fascinating! I know it seems crazy, and I do believe many/most of the #'s are completely wild and tell nothing. Kuro seems pretty orderly and the few Saidaioujou pcb's I have seen are never too far outside these guidelines.. Even the one Tops just sold was SDO 10174.. or #174 (the 1 in front designating it's from the later prints). I have a DDP DFK BL that is 10005 and has a very early date similar to your Mushi Matsuri 1.5.. I am in no way saying I know this stuff for sure.. but it seems like our pcb's in question are # 5's and the "1" and "2" in front is some kind of "in house" organization that Cave does. For another example, the DFK BL on Tops now is #10109.. or 109.
SDO just happened to follow the speculated "0" for 1st and "1" for later prints. Like I said, I am totally guessing at all of this and ultimately hoping more people verify it in either direction. I can't help but pursue the knowledge and don't mind being wrong to get it. I'm totally cool with someone saying, " No, it's not like that, it's like this.. and here's why."

EDIT: added example and specifics