Top Doujins (Pre-)Discussion + RESULTS

[Nifty]

Continuing with the planned lists for this year, the doujin/indie list is next on the agenda, and that agenda is the now. Obviously the first/biggest question is "what qualifies as a doujin", but again I'm not sure that there's much that needs specifying here as it seems to be mostly well agreed upon. (Although based on the previous list, Judgement Silversword seems to count, but not Eschatos?)

Because this list will be drawing from a smaller pool of games, it also makes sense to lower the number of votes required on a single ballot. The way I want to approach this for these more specified lists is to also allow those who still want to vote for more things to be able to do so, in the form of a voting range. For now, I'd like to keep the maximum number of votes to 25, while the minimum could go as low as 8 - anything beyond that is really getting too small for something of this scope. The "top __" amount will probably scale based on how many votes are cast.

That's... really about all for this one I think. Platform doesn't matter, year doesn't matter, all other limitations still apply unless I've missed something.


Edit: RESULTS

[nasty_wolverine]

I think minimum 8 and maximum 15 should be fine, most of the people will struggle just to name 10.

[Observer]

Can we first make a list of doujin/indie shmups with videos and such?

Where would you place something like Sine Mora? It technically is an indie game, right? Or shall we only include japanese doujin devs? There is Danmaku Unlimited 2, an awesome multi-plat and one of the best new 2D shmups of last year.

[DJ Incompetent]

"what qualifies as a doujin"

Combined criteria of:
-Any release with a development team of nine members or less.
OR
-Any release that has had no physical distribution (PCB, disc, cartridge, thumbdrive, etc.)

Or shall we only include japanese doujin devs?

This is just....mean.

The artificial geographic labeling of "Doujins" and "Indies" should be able to freely compete against each other. Danmaku Unlimited 2 and Score Rush MP deserve just as much a shot as Touhou series or Kamui.

[Special World]

Where would you place something like Sine Mora?

I think most members of this site would place Sine Mora in the garbage ;>_>

[nasty_wolverine]

Where would you place something like Sine Mora?

I think most members of this site would place Sine Mora in the garbage ;>_>

or kill it with fire...

[ptoing]

-Any release with a development team of nine members or less.

There could totally be a dev team larger than that and it could still be doujin or indie.

-Any release that has had no physical distribution (PCB, disc, cartridge, thumbdrive, etc.)

Quite a few Japanese doujin games have had physical media, such as Crimzon Clover, and I am sure back in the days of old people probably sold their indie stuff on floppies, stuff like Cho Ren Sha 68k and Flame Zapper Kotsujin. I think those were sold originally as well.

I would say that doujin/indie is a lot more about creative control and not relying on a money source which also has influence on how your game pans out. But even there you could make arguments that that is not the case (kickstarters where supporters are promised to influence a little bit of the game in some way, tho I guess that is withing what the devs specify). So yeah, more about creative control and monetary independence than anything else, really.

[DJ Incompetent]

-Any release that has had no physical distribution (PCB, disc, cartridge, thumbdrive, etc.)

Quite a few Japanese doujin games have had physical media, such as Crimzon Clover, and I am sure back in the days of old people probably sold their indie stuff on floppies, stuff like Cho Ren Sha 68k and Flame Zapper Kotsujin. I think those were sold originally as well.

Exactly. That's why I said OR. If the group has a limited staff but published physically, or a large staff did not publish physically, both would qualify for the vote.

-Any release with a development team of nine members or less.

There could totally be a dev team larger than that and it could still be doujin or indie.

So how many staff members would you say? 12? 15?
Aren't most Raizing and Psikyo titles about 18-ish people per game?

[nasty_wolverine]

I think i would consider indie or doujin something that did not have a publisher backing during development. or "they made it with their own money" so to speak.

[trap15]

-Any release with a development team of nine members or less.

There could totally be a dev team larger than that and it could still be doujin or indie.

So how many staff members would you say? 12? 15?
Aren't most Raizing and Psikyo titles about 18-ish people per game?

I've seen commercial games with a 3 man team, and doujin games with 8+.

Team size is not a factor.

[DJ Incompetent]

K. Then Cave is doujin. Case closed!

[LordHypnos]

IIRC, G.Rev is a pretty small team. Are they doujin?
What about Triangle Service? Aren't they just like 3 people or something?

[trap15]

Triangle Service is literally 2 people. Toshiaki Fujino does the program, design, and graphics; Hiroshi Tanabe (NAOTO) does the music.

[DJ Incompetent]

a'ight, so we're back to "teams of unlimited size who can publish discs to 360."

[CStarFlare]

Vote and sort it out later.

[cools]

How about "anything self published on an open platform"?

[trap15]

That sounds like a good definition to me.

[ptoing]

Open platform is relative, there is what you could call doujin stuff on XBLA and XBLIG.
Also, is stuff on steam selfpublished? Indies on there as well.
I would say if you are independent in terms of funding, don't have investors or shareholders or publishers breathing down your neck.
And yes, under that definition quite a few companies would be doujin. For example id software could have been considered doujin early on for sure.

Also as far as small teams go, Another World was done entirely by one guy too apart from the music.

Overall I think it is a bit pointless to try and define this, because it is not binary, there is some amount of gradation going on.

To me the most important aspects for sure are creative control/independent funding.

[DJ Incompetent]

Combined criteria again:
Anything where initial full release was self published on an open platform.
OR
Any release that has had no physical distribution (PCB, disc, cartridge, thumbdrive, etc.)



-Define open platforms? Linux, Ouya, XBLIG, PC(non Win8?), Steam(??), Mac(?) Android(?), iOS(????~~), Gree(??), Kongrigate(?)

[trap15]

I don't see how physical distribution has anything to do with it. I'm pretty sure there are commercial releases that are digital only.

[LordHypnos]

The Dreamcast is essentially an open platform, these days, if we are going that way >_>
KallistiOS is free, and there's no modification needed to play unlicensed CD-ROM games
...Though, I feel like openness of platform is less important the independence of the artist / programmer or whatever.

[DJ Incompetent]

Gotta make HuCast happy!

Combined criteria:
Anything where initial full release was self published on an open platform.
OR
A release that has had no physical distribution (PCB, disc, cartridge, thumbdrive, etc.)
OR
A physical distribution on a traditionally closed platform that significantly circumvents traditional/organized means of getting the software onto the platform.

I'm pretty sure there are commercial releases that are digital only.

There can be, yes (Battlefield 1943 XBLA), but I don't think leading publishers are experimenting with that much anymore. It's generally understood that if a big enough shop has the means to produce physical goods comfortably, they'll want to.

The largest example I can think of is Sine Mora, and I'd still consider that doujin/indie.

I don't see how physical distribution has anything to do with it.

Small outfits still try to port their game to a variety of places. I don't think we should kick them out of being doujin because the group decided to be on iOS or XBLA first then PC later.

[trap15]

If we're going to use "it's this but only sometimes" then the whole point of a definition falls apart.

[DJ Incompetent]

It wouldn't have to be. It could work as a hard rule. Declare Battlefield 1943 indie. It wouldn't matter in our vote anyway.
I think "no physical distribution" helps more than hurts since it solves the multi-porting issue and better separates indies mixed with commercial titles in a closed ecosystem (XBLA).
It's a clear enough line to draw. I'd be willing to declare Battlefield 1943 and Mushihimesama Bug Panic indie/doujin games. Both seem somewhat experimental and I doubt either used the full teams of DICE and Cave to create. "Indie Doujin Spirit" as it were.

C'mon. Crimzon Clover vs Bug Panic in a vote would be fun, yeah?

[trap15]

But Bug Panic isn't indie, so...

[DJ Incompetent]

Even under cools' definition alone, Cave self-publishing to iOS means Bug Panic would still count.

[ptoing]

Cave has stockholders, so no, not indie

[Elixir]

(Although based on the previous list, Judgement Silversword seems to count, but not Eschatos?)

Eschatos is a commercial game for 360. Silversword was a doujin game for a WonderSwan game creator's contest.

There really is no point to these polls. What are they going to tell you, that people like Touhou and CrimzonClover?

[Pteriforever]

Speaking as an actual indie developer, I think a very strict definition would fit the spirit of the contest better:

--Development team of three or fewer.
--Cost of development ≤ $100 AUD.
--Not designed for profit. This means that it either has to be freeware, or have a price tacked on as an afterthought, as in the case of Hellsinker and the XOPs.

Indie isn't about distributing stuff online, or having less than eight employees. If you're running game development as a business, you are not indie.

If you want to see what real indie shmups look like, take a look at our own development forum (At least, the threads that aren't made by commercial people advertising their fancy kickstarters). Or the dark side of the dark side of Yoyogames, there are plenty there too.

[LordHypnos]

Speaking as an actual indie developer, I think a very strict definition would fit the spirit of the contest better:

--Development team of three or fewer.
--Cost of development ≤ $100 AUD.
--Not designed for profit. This means that it either has to be freeware, or have a price tacked on as an afterthought, as in the case of Hellsinker and the XOPs.

Indie isn't about distributing stuff online, or having less than eight employees. If you're running game development as a business, you are not indie.

If you want to see what real indie shmups look like, take a look at our own development forum (At least, the threads that aren't made by commercial people advertising their fancy kickstarters). Or the dark side of the dark side of Yoyogames, there are plenty there too.

While I don't think all of the doujin soft developers would fit this description, I think this would make an interesting poll. How would you know, however, whether or not the price is tacked on as an afterthought? Obviously if there's a kickstarter or something, that would mean that it was commercially motivated, but beyond that how would you tell?

Eschatos is a commercial game for 360. Silversword was a doujin game for a WonderSwan game creator's contest.

There really is no point to these polls. What are they going to tell you, that people like Touhou and CrimzonClover?

I figure it's sort of like with the main top shmups poll. It'll tell you that people like Cave and Raizing and a handful of other developers, but when you're looking at the entire top 25 + honorable mention you'll see a bit more variety, maybe even some games that weren't on your radar previously. Furthermore, the individual top 25 lists can reveal a lot of hidden gems, presumably

EDITED to avoid a double post.