Can Bullet Hell Games Be Meditative? | Idea Channel | PBS

[nasty_wolverine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY-45DjRk_E

could have chosen better games, check the about section. read the comments section, some are hilarious.

[Xyga]

God this guy is so irritating ! Couldn't stand watching over one third of the video.

Someone please send him some DOJ, MM or something, maybe he'll learn to shut up and actually meditate on how useless his rant is.

[Captain]

Needs more games that are actually good.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Gamers know WTF it is to be in the zone without needing a rant from someone who resides up his own ass. Couldn't finish it.

[ratikal]

I don't know how well I can listen to this opinion when half the video is just him thanking subscribers. There is also no video references at all, just shitty animations.

[Blackbird]

Didn't watch the video, but I definitely experience a zen feeling when I'm "in the zone".

[Aleksei]

This is strictly my opinion but I don't think the announcer or the creators of the video meditate or play shmups well enough to make that video.

If they did they would know that he goal of meditation is to take no thought
while shmups help you perfect a set of thoughts.

Think of it this way, before you can take no thought, you need to eliminate the amount of thoughts,
chants and doing things like playing shmups (repetitiveness/concentration) is only a tool to help you get there.

However, these tools won't get you to the goal of meditation (no thought), just as meditation won't get you to your shmup goals.
This

tl;dr?
read this;
goal of meditation (no thoughts)<<<<<<<<<<Mind>>>>>>>>>>goal of shmups (concentration)

[nasty_wolverine]

If they did they would know that he goal of meditation is to take no thought
while shmups help you perfect a set of thoughts.

Well, things like tai chi have you "zone in" with doing a set of perfect movements over and over, and buddhist/hindu meditation consist of chanting phrases over and over. some people even find working out or simple running meditative. the purpose of meditation is to generally to improve focus, clear thinking and get rid of waste thoughts.

tbh, i consider "the zone" you get into when playing shmups is closer to the "Dont think, Just do" concept of Bushido, where you practice a set of movements till they became second nature. you dont react to each enemy or bullets, you react to a whole level in a single flow. Like playing a musical piece that you have practiced so many times, that you can almost play it blind folded.

Thats why the high level players have such consistency, someone like PROM who can reach the DOJ TLB 99.9% of the time.

[Bananamatic]

quite the opposite, getting a good run gets the adrenaline going

tbh, i consider "the zone" you get into when playing shmups is closer to the "Dont think, Just do" concept of Bushido, where you practice a set of movements till they became second nature. you dont react to each enemy or bullets, you react to a whole level in a single flow. Like playing a musical piece that you have practiced so many times, that you can almost play it blind folded.

it's more like muscle memory

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, I'm with Banana. Excitement is more the focus of shmups, at least for me.

[Kollision]

the guy talks too much, jeez
no breaks in speeches is like no gold in my mushi

[Astraea FGA Mk. I]

I didn't watch the video.
I often play my best when I am not thinking and my subconscious takes over. I think this requires the knowledge of the game to be ingrained to a certain degree. Also, some games lean towards reaction rather than memorization. I sometimes have the feeling that I am watching someone play and being amazed when I am doing well. In games and life I over-think things to the point of fault, got to go with the flow, let it happen.

[HydrogLox]

This is strictly my opinion but I don't think the announcer or the creators of the video meditate or play shmups well enough to make that video.

In popular culture there seems to be a pretty sloppy notion of what "meditation" actually is. In my understanding meditation:

• Is about being rather than doing.
• Is about "falling awake".

Concentration and focus is a big part of the exercise as a means of detachment from (mostly stray) thoughts (letting go rather than suppressing) - the focal point starting with something as small as your own breath but ultimately encompassing everything around you - achieving a kind of deliberate awareness (as opposed to your attention darting from one thing to the next), the ultimate state of "paying absolute attention".
The notion of someone meditating and being in a trance-like state is not interchangeable.

Can Bullet Hell Games Be Meditative? No.

That being said regular concentration/focus exercises could help someone getting "into the Zone" faster and make "staying in the Zone" easier as it becomes easier to cope with distractions. Also with practice in concentration and focus it can become easier to be aware of the entire playing field on and off-screen rather than simply jumping from one priority to the next. So:

Can meditation help your STG skills? Possibly - but meditation abhors goals.

quite the opposite, getting a good run gets the adrenaline going

I know what you mean - but I take that as a sign that I have a long way go. High level players often state that they may be nervous before "the play" but once the game starts, all that simply passes over them giving way to detachment and intense focus. Sitting in front of a screen there isn't an effective way to burn off the adrenaline, so the side effects of chemically induced alertness will ultimately detract from any benefits - so I think practiced mental alertness is the way to go.

[Plasmo]

High level players often state that they may be nervous before "the play" but once the game starts, all that simply passes over them giving way to detachment and intense focus.

What.

Adrenaline builds up with each level. The first level can often be meditative or - putting it right - boring. Any last boss in an average bullet hell game makes your whole body shake. It makes you sweat and scream in anger. I can't see how this can be "being without doing" in any way.

Only because you need total focus, doesn't mean that it's relaxing. Actually the more you need to concentrate on something, the more stressful the situation is.

Didn't watch all of that YT video, because it starts out with a bullshit idea and Touhou.

[Bananamatic]

Adrenaline builds up with each level. The first level can often be meditative or - putting it right - boring. Any last boss in an average bullet hell game makes your whole body shake. It makes you sweat and scream in anger. I can't see how this can be "being without doing" in any way.

It goes away after you get good enough though

back in 2010 or so I had to pause touhou over a 10 minute run because i was shaking like a retard
now I can fuck up in ketsui 2-5 and I don't really care

everyone fucks up a million times before they get the run, no point getting mad over something that is supposed to happen
in shmups, failure is the default

[Erppo]

Adrenaline builds up with each level. The first level can often be meditative or - putting it right - boring. Any last boss in an average bullet hell game makes your whole body shake. It makes you sweat and scream in anger. I can't see how this can be "being without doing" in any way.

It goes away after you get good enough though

True.

[Bananamatic]

Speaking of the mindset, this is a very motivational video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK0wdLCk6NY

[HydrogLox]

The first level can often be meditative or - putting it right - boring.

I never argued that the game is relaxing. I argued that focus helps game play. Also people seem to confuse the notions of "relaxation" and "meditation".

It makes you sweat and scream in anger.

Unless your are describing plain exhaustion it sounds more like "fighting the adrenaline" at the same time as playing the game - diverting attention/focus away from the game.

Only because you need total focus, doesn't mean that it's relaxing. Actually the more you need to concentrate on something, the more stressful the situation is.

I never made the argument that applying focus/concentration is not draining - I argued that some people report that it is easier and less draining to focus and easier to cope with distractions after they started practicing meditation - and that those effects could be beneficial to game play. Actual stress is ultimately going to impair game play; the easiest way to remove the stress is to stop playing the game - and making mistake(s) will end the game. The "stress-helps-me-focus" type seems to require the stress of impending (disappointing, stressful) failure to marshal "enough focus" to work toward a satisfactory (stress-reduced) outcome. That may work in a pinch but ...

Meditation: It’s Not What You Think

[drauch]

Got through about 15 seconds with the sound off. Hate.

[Sinful]

What the crap am I watching & what the hell is that guy saying? Having no idea as to what was going on at all & just hearing non-stop words one after another... I had to shut the dam thing off. I don't even want to know what's going on, I'm outa here. No more jumping into random topics for me.

[Squire Grooktook]

back in 2010 or so I had to pause touhou over a 10 minute run because i was shaking like a retard
now I can fuck up in ketsui 2-5 and I don't really care

I feel like I would be really sad though if I stopped feeling that nail biting tension at the ends of shmups or fighting game matches. That's my favorite part of the whole experience.

[DMC]

I think it is a bit of a tradeoff. If you dedicate to one game, most runs will be far from the personal record and therefore far from peak experience, and you are used to playing at the edge so it is no big deal.

When you switch between several games most runs are potential records so you are closer to the relative peak experience. You are not used to play on the edge, so it's a big deal.

On the other hand, when you do get close to the personal best, the peak experience is much greater in the former case because of the stronger goal commitment, resources invested.

Btw, Re: the youtube clip from first post I felt that it was "trying too much".

[Danbo]

performing at your utmost best is never really meditative, and, well, thats what you have to do in b.hell games

guy is a slight prat also but it ain't his fault

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Very impressive video. It's been a while since I've seen someone ramble for ages without being able to say anything of real substance. It's basically a long babble-fest with meme images popping up beside his face. You could argue anything relaxing is 'meditative', but whether your average manic shmup is relaxing or something that demands serious focus is entirely a matter of opinion. And my guess is the dude doesn't seriously play the games (aside from on easy mode? lol) because doing well at the harder shit generally requires intense focus. Maybe it's is more relaxing if you're just credit feeding? Hahaha.

From his video description:

Some shmups y'all recommended on twitter!

(I definitely lost a good amount of time playing RotMG and Luftrauser)

Neither of those are bullet hell shmups. Realm of the Mad God is at best a laggy multiplayer arena shooter with RPG elements and enemies that fire sorta dodgeable shots (you're usually killed by being hit by a dense spread at pointblank range due to a sudden lag blip, not very much fun), and Luftrauser plays like Sopwith, which isn't really what's considered to be a modern shmup by any means. So we've got a guy extolling the benefits of bullet hell games as 'meditative' without actually knowing anything about them. Welcome to the internet, where you can be an expert on any subject with enough bullshitting.

Whatever you do don't click on the dude's channel. It's pure, undiluted douchebaggery.

[Skykid]

[Plasmo]

Adrenaline builds up with each level. The first level can often be meditative or - putting it right - boring. Any last boss in an average bullet hell game makes your whole body shake. It makes you sweat and scream in anger. I can't see how this can be "being without doing" in any way.

It goes away after you get good enough though

back in 2010 or so I had to pause touhou over a 10 minute run because i was shaking like a retard
now I can fuck up in ketsui 2-5 and I don't really care

everyone fucks up a million times before they get the run, no point getting mad over something that is supposed to happen
in shmups, failure is the default

I really envy you then. The uncomfortable feeling never got away for me and I tend to fuck up everything possible especially when the pressure is on (hello last boss).

Guess I need to get better and lrn2play.

[hecheff]

read this;
goal of meditation (no thoughts)<<<<<<<<<<Mind>>>>>>>>>>goal of shmups (concentration)

As subjective as it can be, does it also mean that the real goal is to reach that delicate perfect state of mind either by mad concentration, or by removing all thought and coming full circle to said desired mindset?

[Ed Oscuro]

Can meditation help your STG skills? Possibly - but meditation abhors goals.

Meditation's search for "inner calm" gets there through the practice of Things and cannot do otherwise. Why would it be different to focus on a small set of tasks instead of focusing on your breath?

I went to the Internet's premier resource (outside of this thread) on Meditation, Wikihow, and found this:

The goal of meditation is to focus and quiet your mind, eventually reaching a higher level of awareness and inner calm

That's more about the place you are trying to reach than how you get there. As stated above, I don't see the roadblock.

The link you give doesn't support your conclusion. For example:

On the outside, the body may be calm (and even that can take quite some time to achieve), but on the inside, the mind is often a messy jumble of thoughts and emotions. That’s normal. In fact, while meditation means many things to many people, from my perspective, it is not about achieving a blissed out, “empty” state of mind. Cessation of thinking is possible (or so I hear), but I see this as more of a side effect, if and when it ever occurs. To me, meditation is actually a process—one of investigating your own mind and changing the way you relate to your thoughts.

- all suggests to me that the typical view of the cross-legged meditation is also a stereotype without grounding in reality. The process must lead to that second bit that follows soon after this section:

What’s easily confused is that the instructions for meditation are in fact not the goal of meditation. In other words, while we aim to maintain focus on the breath, the goal is really to learn about our minds. We do this by setting up the conditions for thoughts to arise, and then observe them non-judgmentally. Once we understand that thoughts are supposed to arise, and are even necessary for the process to be meaningful, we can relax into allowing this to happen. With practice, we begin to realize that thoughts and emotions that naturally arise will also naturally pass away. We realize they don’t always need to be acted upon, and that they aren’t as “real” as they seem.

For me personally this can happen while you are mowing the lawn or doing anything. At best we could say that playing a game might not help this goal, but it seems to me that when you are trying to focus on a game there is still a focus on dismissing random thoughts, and I don't see why this process can't take the form of the above.

While it might be possible to say that you won't likely meditate successfully while playing such a game, in practice I think that is likely to be wrong.

[HydrogLox]

Why would it be different to focus on a small set of tasks instead of focusing on your breath?

while we aim to maintain focus on the breath, the goal is really to learn about our minds.

i.e. while you are involved in an intense STG session you aren't going to be able to "introspect" to monitor, analyze and adjust your thinking - to "be calm" you would have had to sort that out in advance.

The goal of meditation is to focus and quiet your mind, eventually reaching a higher level of awareness and inner calm

True - but even that "goal" is elusive. There is no telling when finally anybody will (temporarily) reach that goal and when they will be able to reach it again. Even those who practice regularly cannot be certain that they will get "there" on any given day.

The link you give doesn't support your conclusion.

Of course it does, its even shows up in the sections you quote.

the mind is often a messy jumble of thoughts and emotions.

one of investigating your own mind and changing the way you relate to your thoughts.

And I'm repeating myself here - nobody can deal with that while they are involved in an intense STG session.

For me personally this can happen while you are mowing the lawn or doing anything.

What you are describing sounds like day dreaming, the practice of concentration and focus is meant to teach you to "pay attention".
The core statement relating to my comment of "meditation abhors goals":

meditation is actually a process—one of investigating your own mind and changing the way you relate to your thoughts.

There is no guarantee that you will be better off after exercising "the process" once, ten times, a hundred times or more. It happens when it happens - trying to coerce a result (or attempting to "measure" progress) is going to push "it" further away. Also it's misleading to say that meditating is relaxing. The relaxation is a result of a successful "re-calibration" of one's mindset that allows a considered response to stress rather than going with the default stress reaction (e.g. adrenaline). Furthermore practice of concentration, focus and ultimately awareness are an integral part of "the process".

[captpain]

I turned it off as soon as he said "Here's an idea:".