3D Galaxy Force II is Incredible - On Saturn? Not So Much

[parallaxscroll2]

With the recent release of SEGA's 3D Galaxy Force II on 3DS eShop this past week, I wanted to understand more about why the Japanese Saturn version was so sloppy & choppy, given Saturn's usual prowess with 2D / sprites, scaling and rotation.





The 3DS version is so amazing. It is based on the Japanese PlayStation 2 version from 2007 with both the Neo Classic graphics and Arcade Mode graphics.

Interview with Naoki Horii (M2 President) and Yousuke Okunari (SEGA CS3 Producer)
http://blogs.sega.com/2013/12/12/sega-3 ... eloper-m2/


The 1998 SEGA AGES Saturn ports of Galaxy Force II and Power Drift were done by Appaloosa and Phant, not Rutubo Games who did the outstanding work on Saturn Space Harrier, Out Run and After Burner II in 1996 (1997 in the U.S. and EU).

Those three games however, ran on less and less complex/powerful super-scaler boards (SEGA calls it Super-Scalar Technology) than what Galaxy Force II and Power Drift ran on.

Still, I once believed the 32-Bit Saturn was more powerful than the 16-Bit arcade super-scalar techology that ran GFII, PD, G-LOC and others.

Apparently not.




Meet SEGA's arcade Y-BOARD HARDWARE -The King of the Super-Scalar boards.

Main CPU : 3 x MC68000 @ 12.5 MHz
Sound CPU : Z80 @ 4 MHz
Sound chip : YM2151 @ 4 MHz & SegaPCM @ 15.625 MHz
Max Colours : 16384 (4bpp - 16 per sprite, which go through a 16->512 indirection table), then selects which 512 color bank to take from 4096. This is used to do colour rotations (the red-yellow rotation of the lava sprites from Galaxy force for instance) without changing the color palette, also allows it to have sprites that rotate colors and sprites that don't on the same screen, and to get different levels of luminosity as well
Sprite Structure : Uses a linked list of sprites (each sprite includes the number of the next one)
Video resoution : 320 x 224
Board composition : CPU board + Video board
Board Features : 3 68K, nicknamed M, X and Y.
You have a sky gradiant, a first sprite layer which plugs into a full-screen rotation (seen in the the power drift/galaxy force screen tilt), then a second sprite layer (outrun type) on top of them which has priority, and they have full sprite zooming and scaling on both sprite planes.
This hardware uses no tiles at all.

It is no wonder that even Sega's monster 2D/sprite pushing 32-Bit console, the Sega Saturn (with all those CPUs & VDPs) released in Nov. 1994 in Japan, could not handle 1988 Power Drift and Galaxy Force II without the developers (Phant and Appaloosa respectively) having to cut the framerate in half, to 30fps. in both 1998 Japanese SEGA AGES ports for Saturn. --And then there was *still* major slowdown on top of that in Galaxy Force II.

Both Saturn ports should have been handled by Rutubo Games, They would've at least given it their all

Videos of the 30 FPS slowdown-ridden Saturn Galaxy Force II and the 30 FPS Saturn Power Drift


Bonus: 60 FPS Dreamcast Power Drift from Yu Suzuki Game Works Vol 1.
(even tho YouTube does not display 60fps you can still tell Power Drift is much smoother on Dreamcast than it is on Saturn).


SEGA's Y-BOARD arcade hardware powered these games:

G-LOC Air Battle (1990)
Galaxy Force (1988)
Galaxy Force II (1988)
Power Drift (1988) Flier -1- -2- -3-
Power Drift Link (1988)
R-360: G-Loc (1990)
Rail Chase (1991)
Strike Fighter (1991)

Huge thanks and shout outs to both System 16 The Arcade Museum and The Arcade Flier Archive for all the information & images they have, and preserve!


PlayStation2 SEGA AGES 2500 Series Vol. 30: Galaxy Force II: Special Extended Edition -- All Stage Clear Replay in Neo Classic Mode and with Y-Board / Arcade Mode graphics


Arcade longplay in MAME

Finally, there is this wonderful little video by SuperHighTechGamer recalling how great Galaxy Force II was. He talks about and shows Saturn Galaxy Force II from 1998 and arcade Galaxy Force II from 1988 running in MAME.

He is so right, in the arcades, there were everyone else's games, and then there were SEGA games.


If you love Galaxy Force II, your best options to play it are Japanese import PS2, MAME and now, best of all, the absolutely incredible auto-stereoscopic 3D version on 3DS.

Playing this on 3DS with the 3D slider to max, in Arcade Mode with the original Y-BOARD graphics is better than having sex.

Or at least peanut butter & chocolate ^__^

[Fudoh]

I still pray for the day we get a complete Super Scalar collection on a single disc for a single system. I love them all, I have most of the conversions done over the past decades, but I hate how they're scattered across the systems.

[rancor]

Now that's a post! Awesome tech info / review with pics.

[evil_ash_xero]

I always liked that there's metallic titties on the cover.

[EmperorIng]

Unfortunately, the Saturn was not strong enough to completely translate Galaxy Force II on its system. The port was a decent attempt though. We can only dream about some Sega Y-board-based console released instead of the Saturn.

It's nice to see that 3DS owners can play a lot of these classic games on the go. Super Hang On, Space Harrier, and Galaxy Force II? Sign me up!

[BIL]

<333 + monster boner for PS2 Galaxy Force II Special Extend Edition.

Hell, <333 + monster boner for every damn M2 disc in that set. Quality work. I'll never part with Treasure Box even having subsequently gotten its three games on MD cart.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Bonus: 60 FPS Dreamcast Power Drift from Yu Suzuki Game Works Vol 1.

Now that's what I call kart racer.
Is that compilation technically fine? Supports analogue stick? Will it run at 60 Hz on a PAL Dreamcast? (I read not every NTSC game does.)

[null1024]

Unfortunately, the Saturn was not strong enough to completely translate Galaxy Force II on its system. The port was a decent attempt though. We can only dream about some Sega Y-board-based console released instead of the Saturn.

The Saturn is about as good as the X-Board, except that it can also do 4 point quads and the background VDP is an absolute beast.
Mind you, I really wish the Saturn had some of the Sega System 32 in it, christ. Now that is a Super Scaler beast.

Sega just needs to do one gigantic Super Scaler ULTIMATE COLLECTION or something with all the scaling-based games from '86-1995. Even Cool Riders. Especially Cool Riders.
And I still say that the Saturn in theory should be fast enough to do a good 60fps port of GFII. In theory. An in-house Sega developed port.

In hindsight, the Genesis's eternal failing is the complete lack of scaling hardware, of course, especially when Sega's big arcade hits from the era just outright didn't really work that well without it [hey kids, remember Galaxy Force II for Genesis? ahahahahaha]. It'd have been expensive as hell though. By the time the Saturn came out, no one wanted sprite scaling games, they wanted polygons. A real shame, since scaled sprite visuals have aged a hell of a lot better than early consumer 3D.

[parallaxscroll2]

Here's the CRI / CSK 1990 version of Galaxy Force II for FM-TOWNS computer.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ed8_4xLbf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn_hcxyA27II

Also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn_hcxyA27I

This is mostly a recording test. This game runs in 31khz only, so I'm using the XVGA-1v scan converter to give me S-Video for the DVD recorder. The RGB output on this thing is just about perfect, but the S-Video is a bit dark, but when I recorded this I didn't realize the scan converter does have brightness control built in lol. Still here's a direct caputure directly off my FM Towns Fresh.

AFAIK it could be played on the FM-TOWNS Marty console, which released in Japan in Feb. 1993 (before either the Commodore Amiga CD32 or Panasonic 3DO REAL Player released in western countries), making FM-TOWNS Marty technically the world's first 32-Bit game console.


Game Fan magazine reviewed FM-TOWNS Galaxy Force II, along with Tatsujin Oh / Truxton II on the Marty, in IIRC, 1993 issue.

[Ed Oscuro]

I have that. It has a nice soundtrack (perhaps remix only, forget if it's got the original) but it plays in a window, not full-res. It's not "the real deal." I might be wrong but I think somebody mentioned that the game's remix soundtrack got reused for the PS2 port as an option.

I'm sure it plays on the Marty...I should pull mine out to check.

[parallaxscroll2]

If I'm not mistaken, when Game Fan magazine reviewed FM TOWNS Galaxy Force II in 1993, I think they reviewed it as a Marty game (along with Truxton II)
Or maybe I wasn't aware at the time of Marty's compatibility. I wish I could find scans of that issue..


Anyway, I want a copy of this:

[GSK]

[hey kids, remember Galaxy Force II for Genesis? ahahahahaha]

Forget MD, there was a goddamn Master System port. Yeah.

[null1024]

[hey kids, remember Galaxy Force II for Genesis? ahahahahaha]

Forget MD, there was a goddamn Master System port. Yeah.

Which, if I remember right, wasn't too terrible. It's at least a better game than the Genesis version.
The caves looked atrocious though using palette rotation, blech.

Sprite limit murders both anyway though.

[parallaxscroll2]

[hey kids, remember Galaxy Force II for Genesis? ahahahahaha]

Forget MD, there was a goddamn Master System port. Yeah.

Heh, read what is said in the preview below very carefully, then think about it for a moment.










And now, on a Nintendo:





How completely ironic, huh ?

[Obiwanshinobi]

In hindsight, the Genesis's eternal failing is the complete lack of scaling hardware, of course, especially when Sega's big arcade hits from the era just outright didn't really work that well without it [hey kids, remember Galaxy Force II for Genesis? ahahahahaha].

Was it? I thought the colours (in comparison to PCE and SNES, never mind Amiga) were its Achilles heel.
Dedicated sprite-scaling console would be something else, like Vectrex.
Well, Saturn technically was it (doing things even Neo Geo didn't by hardware), but at what price?

[parallaxscroll2]

Mega Drive / Genesis was not even upto par with the workhorse System16 A and B boards, which themselves lacked Sega's Super-Scalar Technology, despite the fact System 16B had some limited hardware sprite zooming, as seen in Altered Beast.

System 16B would not have been able to handle perfect ports of Space Harrier, OutRun, Super Hang-On, After Burner II, Thunder Blade, Super Monaco GP, etc., Let alone Power Drift, Galaxy Force II and G-LOC.

So MD/Genesis did not even have a hope or a prayer.

If the custom ASIC in Mega-CD / Sega CD, which did have hardware scaling & rotation, had been more on par with say, the X Board (ABII, Thunder Blade, SMGP) then I could see reasonable ports of most of the 16-Bit arcade super-scaler games. The Y Board stuff would've still been very difficult though.

[BIL]

I might be wrong but I think somebody mentioned that the game's remix soundtrack got reused for the PS2 port as an option.

Yep! It's one of the soundtrack options along with a choice of emulated or streamed arcade BGM.

( "HUAH" ♫)

The PS2 disc also includes the MD and SMS versions. I've never played either, LOL.

[parallaxscroll2]

Hate to say this but I really wanna get the PS2 ISO for PCSX2.

Has anyone tried that?

[Ed Oscuro]

PS2 ISO for PCSX2.

Has anyone tried that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shIvU4Usn7Y

[BrianC]

How the heck did the Ecco developer end up with a Japan only port of Galaxy Force II?

[Ed Oscuro]

I thought Ecco was STI - which was gone long before the PS2 era. Am I missing something?

[BIL]

I think Brian meant the Saturn port of GFII. Appaloosa = Novotrade, purveyors of Ecco 1 + 2 and Kolibri, The Real Parkinson's Simulator. M2 developed the PS2 collection, along with the Space Harrier, Treasure Box, Monster World, Phantasy Star and Fantasy Zone ones.

[BrianC]

yeah, I meant the Saturn version. I heard the Y board was still a bear to port to the Saturn, but I don't think Appaloosa were the best guys for the job. I haven't picked up 3D Galaxy Force yet and I haven't played the JPS2 collections, but I like the other M2 ports/emulation/remixes I have played.

[BIL]

LOL out$ourcing.



HEY KIDS IM A TURTLE

[BrianC]

LOL out$ourcing.



HEY KIDS IM A TURTLE

yeah. That game was messed up and their track racord was iffy, though I read they were former Epyx staff and I think some of the staff made interesting stuff like Impossible Mission while at Epyx. I need to play Ecco more for an opinion, but I don't dislike it so far. While I agree with the LOL, lets not forget that M2 and Rutubo Games stuff is outscorced too, so it's not always a bad thing.

[BIL]

<333 the first two Eccos on MD (quoting mahself to save time). They're currently the only Western-developed games in my MD library. Hate Kolibri though - the dolphin's a joy to move around but I suspect the hummingbird is actually a moth in disguise. It's a shame they didn't use the 32X opportunity to give Ecco a proper sendoff.

Novotrade: just add water!

Outsourcing can lead to great things, no question (Gradius V). Out$ourcing usually doesn't (Silent Hill HD Collection). ;] I doubt Appaloosa were given the Saturn ports for their noted technical expertise with Sega arcade hardware.

[Ed Oscuro]

I heard some good things about the 3D Ecco, actually. Seems like the perfect kind of game really - not enough in-the-water adventures out there. Everybody wants to ride a horse (or be a turtle) apparently.

[gameoverDude]

Power Drift is way better on C64 than the Amiga- maybe not in graphics, but definitely smoothness. The C64 one is amazing for an 8-bit computer, and would've been a good thing to base an Sega Mark III/SMS version off of. Chris Butler apparently knew what he could/could not get away with when programming that.

I think the developers of a lot of Genesis ports didn't really try their hardest. GFII, Turbo Out Run, Super Thunder Blade, and Super Monaco GP aren't as good as they could've been IMO. Genesis Out Run and After Burner II are about as good as possible. Turbo Out Run should've been outsourced to Hertz. Did Tiertex (gack) do that one?

It's still hard to believe the Saturn can't carry a Y-Board game perfectly. I think Appaloosa can indeed be blamed for not milking the Saturn with GFII, while Phant's Power Drift is so close in everything but framerate. A friend of mine watched me play once and said it seems a few roadside objects were absent. Strike Fighter (arcade version of After Burner III) could probably have been done at 60 FPS, since it doesn't seem quite as visually taxing as PD or GFII.

[SuperDeadite]

As the maker of that FM Towns GF2 video, let me clarify that the game will run on a Marty, but it plays like shit (about 15-20fps) on it and all 386 based machines. On a 486, such as my Fresh, it runs at 60fps. I actually prefer it over the Saturn version for this reason alone, despite the Saturn having much better visuals.

[BrianC]

Power Drift is way better on C64 than the Amiga- maybe not in graphics, but definitely smoothness. The C64 one is amazing for an 8-bit computer, and would've been a good thing to base an Sega Mark III/SMS version off of. Chris Butler apparently knew what he could/could not get away with when programming that.

I think the developers of a lot of Genesis ports didn't really try their hardest. GFII, Turbo Out Run, Super Thunder Blade, and Super Monaco GP aren't as good as they could've been IMO. Genesis Out Run and After Burner II are about as good as possible. Turbo Out Run should've been outsourced to Hertz. Did Tiertex (gack) do that one?

Chris Butler also did the C64 Space Harrier, though, oddly enough, the EU one was rushed and US got the more polished version. It looks like a decent version, especially for the hardware, though it got the names of the stages mixed up.

From what I read, it is indeed Tiertex that did the Genesis Turbo Outrun. Not sure why SEGA trusted them. They also did that awful SMS port of Strider.

I played Space Harrier II again recently and I actually like it quite a bit, despite the lack of scaling. It has some slick enemy patterns and some of the coolest bosses in any Space Harrier game, especially the Flatwoods Monster. The music in that game is extremely good too.