R-Type Final thoughs!

[Defcon 5]

Iam now trying to get all those ships and after playing this game for about 50 hours now, I want to talk a little bit about it. I know its not kinda new, and there exists 2 threads which are fearly old.

I think the devs made many mistakes. The biggest mistake are the visuals. Ok, its a damn wonderful game, with nice effects good abstract levels many very neat looking ships, many fiend models and so on. But the fact that on most points this game is running with 10fps is fucking unbelieveable and totally not acceptable. I mean for sure one tester was pointing out that at times this game getting to damn slow that u wish to can sleep during such periodes. I dont know why Irem still packed it up with background polygons and textures (which are super nice but in this case gameplay destroying). In the first stage there are times when you have 10 seconds nothing on the screen to destroy. Which leads my straight to the level design.

Iam quite sure, they did employee more visual artists then gameplay designer because if Iam looking back to old days (R-Type Delta) the levels where packed full of enemys with memorable stages and the learning curve (except Stage 6 and Final) were good balanced. Nowadays it seems that the devs forgot to but in some enemies because even in Stage 5 or FA there are periods were you can be inactive for about 5-10 secs which is too much.

And why on earth did they develope a system where you have to spend playtime to get another ships. I hate them for doing this because who spends 2 damn hours with one ship to get another. Ok I wouldnt have a problem if the level design where good like in R-Type 3 or Detla where time is getting liquid as you move through the stages, but who gets bored the second time he flew through this damn Stage 3 in Final ?
Thanks to cracks (or maybe the devs itself) for getting us the little trick in Stage 3 where you can spend 3 hours with a ship without have to care about your Ps2. This is the only points which motivates me to get more ships.

Why not implement things such: Destroy boss 2 in Stage 2.2 with a Beam Shot to get the next ship or dock and undock your satelitte on your ship 20 times. Ok not the best ideas yet, but far more funny then flying 90 minutes with a ship which got noting better as a Beam shot then a sword (shitty Hakusan )

Ok enough of the bad, there are of course good things in it, thats why I spent over 50 hours with it. The level variants are pretty cool, especially Stage 2 and F ( I though would like to see more Stages if Iam forced to play with it more than 50 hours ). The ships are pretty cool, some of them are very useless, and it seems that Irem just tried to make quantity not quality, but most of them offers special gameplay experiences. The music is that awesome, e.g Continue or Stage 2.3-2.4.

What do you think about R-Type Final, does Final justify the slowdowns, the system or 101 ships ?

Thx for slateman for his great ship list

http://www.slateman.net

[PFG 9000]

I don't think the slowdown in Final makes the game unplayable, or even less playable. I'd say it is inexcusable, though. The slow pace of the game is what makes it less playable, for me. Though I do enjoy it overall.

The first few times I played the fifth level, I thought it was the worst idea ever to distort the view in a shooter. If the idea of a game is to avoid obstacles with pinpoint accuracy, how can you justify impeding the player's ability to judge distances and speed??? But then I read here that you can reduce the distortion by slowing down, and suddenly the gimmick of the stage becomes brilliant! Do you sacrifice speed for accuracy, or vice versa? Man, what a great concept for a shooter. But that stage is still a pain to play through.

And the first time I saw the background of Stage F, it weirded me out more than any game has before.

Overall I do enjoy R-Type Final. While I recognize that Delta is superior in nearly every way, I somehow enjoy Final a bit more. I certainly like Final more than Super R-Type, and it's been too long since I've played The Third Lightning, so I can't really compare them. Now I just need to find R-Types...

[visuatrox]

Well I have to say Delta was a more solid game overall, actually the best PS1 shmup in my opinion. I like R-Type Final, it had potential to be the best shmups on the PS2 but because of some major issues it was a bit of a let down to me.

The Positive:
The game has good design and presentation. Incredible amount of background history and a lot of detailed databases of enemies, they must have put a lot of time on this. The music, sounds and atmosphere are truly brilliant. And some of the later stages are great.

The Bad:
The first boring level, becomes a pain to sleep through each time. And the irritating large battle ship level, not only is it frustratingly hard it has the worst slowdown ever.


Basically if it had not been for a couple of bad levels that ruin the flow of the game, and the horrible slowdown this could have been a masterpiece. I would like to see Irem try to make a shmup on the PS2 again, but this time make sure to sort out the technical issues before releasing it.

[BulletMagnet]

I consider R-Type Final as more of a tribute to the series than an "actual" game...honestly, if you're buying it, it's more for the truckload of info, history, and other stuff that you have access to, rather than the chore of playing through the same (SLOW) levels over and over again to unlock the ships. That's not to say that the game itself is unenjoyable or unplayable, I just think it takes a back seat to the "long goodbye" that Irem built in. That fact is definitely not altogether agreeable, but considering that you can get the game for a pretty cheap price it's not as big a deal as it might have been.

[visuatrox]

Yea I guess the game is like some kind of fan service. It just makes me wonder what the people at Irem are planning on doing next. I mean every game they have made lately have been odd or original, Bumpy Trot and Disaster Report 2 look promising, but seem to be targeted at a small group of gamers.

Irem is known for their shmups, wonder why they have not tried to specialize in them more. I would also like to see them releasing a collection with all their old shmups, still waiting for a port of R Type Leo

[PFG 9000]

I consider R-Type Final as more of a tribute to the series than an "actual" game...

That is an excellent point. I never thought of it that way. *shrugs*

[Molloy]

This game gets too far away from its arcade roots. The pacing is appaling.

But that's what idiot console players want these days. It's all percieved value. How much gubbins do you get to unlock. How many hours, how much story.

A good arcade game is like a good music album. You listen/play it a hundred times and it's still fun. That's what developers are failing to remember at the moment. Hence they bog the whole experience down with a million unlockables. Case in point: Soul Calibur 3. Unlockables shouldn't be allowed next door near an arcade game.

I found a copy of R-Type Delta today as a matter a fact. Was very surprised to find one in a 2nd hand bin. Also found Parappa the Rapper 2 which I've been hunting for for a year or more.

[New Age of Aces]

R-type III>>>R-Type Delta>>>R-Type Final

[crithit5000]

I never cared for Final when I got it last year...at first it was due to the absolute emptiness of the first level. It's still a chore to me, but now I can overlook it.

The second thing that irked me was the typical R-Type "YOU IN THE WRONG SPOT YOU GONNA DIE" ethic that pushes people away from the series...the best example being stage 4's boss. When it's head falls off, you're pretty likely to get killed by it the first time because you have no clue where to go.

But the game has grown on me some and it hasn't left my PS2's tray in a few weeks. I blame insert credit's R-Type Final thread for grabbing my interest in replaying this one and unlocking all the stuff.

[Last Guardian]

I consider R-Type Final as more of a tribute to the series than an "actual" game...honestly, if you're buying it, it's more for the truckload of info, history, and other stuff that you have access to, rather than the chore of playing through the same (SLOW) levels over and over again to unlock the ships. That's not to say that the game itself is unenjoyable or unplayable, I just think it takes a back seat to the "long goodbye" that Irem built in. That fact is definitely not altogether agreeable, but considering that you can get the game for a pretty cheap price it's not as big a deal as it might have been.

Eh ? this post is so wrong in so many places I wouldn't know where to start.

I you don't like the pacing, fine, go play another game. Did you ever consider some people actually like it (a lot) and consider the extra's just that: extra's ? Strip it all down and it's prolly still my fave shooter this gen.
What chore ? What "fact" ?

Fuck it. There's some complaining about slowdown in an Irem shooter...what did you expect ?

[system11]

Fuck it. There's some complaining about slowdown in an Irem shooter...what did you expect ?

I expect a better frame rate than Delta managed, not a worse one.
I expect music that's interesting and helps you get into the game.
I expect a first stage that isn't BORING to play through due to a midboss
that takes too long to kill.

Basically, it't not half the game Delta was, a huge letdown.

[professor ganson]

I just want to say that the criticisms of Final in this thread are pretty insightful. That's it. That's all I want to say.

[New Age of Aces]

I really like Final for what it is but I wonder how it would have turned out if it used a engine similar to the one Treasure used for Gradius V............HMMMM.

[BrianC]

Yea I guess the game is like some kind of fan service.

Are you sure you aren't talking about the Dead or Alive series?

[dessgeega]

i only play this game in invincibility mode any more, which i think speaks to both the failings and achievements of it. the pacing is strange and uneven - it's not that playable a shooter. but the things that you see are brilliant. i think final is a good example of the advantages developers have when they work on a game knowing it is the final game of a series.

stage F-A is one of the best final stages i've seen in a while: the sexual imagery in the background - suggestive of the liaison between humans and bydo that produced the bydo empire - along with the complex patterns of enemies - the bydo lab tells us these are "more human than bydo" - that each have one eye staring ceaselessly at your position onscreen. the scene where you fly through a tunnel of eyes all following your ship may be the best in the game.

to say nothing of stage F-B!

[Klatrymadon]

I consider R-Type Final as more of a tribute to the series than an "actual" game...honestly, if you're buying it, it's more for the truckload of info, history, and other stuff that you have access to, rather than the chore of playing through the same (SLOW) levels over and over again to unlock the ships. That's not to say that the game itself is unenjoyable or unplayable, I just think it takes a back seat to the "long goodbye" that Irem built in. That fact is definitely not altogether agreeable, but considering that you can get the game for a pretty cheap price it's not as big a deal as it might have been.

I agree with that completely, but I think it could have easily felt like a "proper" R-Type game if only they'd have chosen more upbeat music and thrown a few more waves of enemies at us (I know it gets hectic on the hardest mode, but there are still noticeable dead spots). The music is not only largely forgettable (the only real exceptions being levels 6.0 and F-A imo), but it is far too ambient for an R-Type game anyway. Granted, R-Type has always had a much slower pace than most shooters, but I would argue that part of what kept this slower pace exciting in older games were the solid, driving soundtracks. The atmosphere created by the music and the visuals is excellent, but it's clearly a hindrance in a game like R-Type. Everything feels far too laid back.

On top of that, the level design is a rather threadbare. There is none of the typical R-Type maze negotiation here. 90% of the game takes place in very wide open spaces. It doesn't help that crashing into walls can't hurt you. Then again, I died a lot when I first bought it, so they made up for this simple level design somehow.

I like the game a lot, and really appreciate all of the extra stuff Irem crammed into it, but it just isn't as fun to play as the rest of the games...

[Danny]

The music (which you could say is heavly inspired by a disaster/horror movie soundtrack) is suppose to be tense not upbeat kind of like the new metriod games or house of the dead I guess. The music is unlike the techno stuff that the older games had and I'm guessing the reasoning for this is because Irem could not afford to do such music when in their past games the tech and the money were simply not there to do such music.

Ask for the slowdown yeah it's not overly bad but it's definatly below par even for a shmup but thats only because the Irem put so much detail into the graphics that it slowed the whole machine down. (high deatiled explosions with shrapnel, very detailed background envorments and so on...)

The gameplay (and even the game) is rather like marmite, you either love it or hate it. Irem were trying to add suspense and tension (if you can call it that) speicaly in the first level by adding fewer eneimes which are in fact tougher than the average foe in a shmup.

I happen to like this game, it's not my fave in the seires but it's definatly a decent send off to the series if you catch my drift.

[dave4shmups]

My biggest gripe with this game is the first level-WAAAY too few enemies to shoot at.

Other then that, IMO, it's a worthy addition to the series, but I still like Delta better.

[Turrican]

I consider R-Type Final as more of a tribute to the series than an "actual" game...honestly, if you're buying it, it's more for the truckload of info, history, and other stuff that you have access to, rather than the chore of playing through the same (SLOW) levels over and over again to unlock the ships. That's not to say that the game itself is unenjoyable or unplayable, I just think it takes a back seat to the "long goodbye" that Irem built in. That fact is definitely not altogether agreeable, but considering that you can get the game for a pretty cheap price it's not as big a deal as it might have been.

I consider R-Type Final as more of a tribute to the series than an "actual" game...

That is an excellent point. I never thought of it that way. *shrugs*

I happen to disagree instead. I think calling it a fanservice demo, like, huh, a xenofreak disc is doing the game too much a disservice. Okay, granted, Delta was better in everything. The slow pace doesn't hide the bad slowdown and makes some stages annoying. Unlocking all the ships can be a burden. All true.

But, come on, does all this make Final a "tribute", instead of a proper game? Heck, no. It has 100% original setting, stages, music, plenty of ships to select from. It's a full fledged game, and probably less rehashed than R-Type II was compared to its prequel. And despite its flaws it doesn't feel incomplete or a beta.

I dare to invert BulletMagnet's statement: if you dig well under the thick layer of fanservice, museums, gallleries and such, you'll find a nice R-Type installment. Flawed, not perfect, but surely closer to FFVII than to the fourth disc of FFVII International.

[Jedah Doma]

Well, this is of course more of what everyone has already said, but I too was dissapointed. I think the main reason was because Gradius V had come out around that same time. So when you look at the two shooters, R-Type Final didn't hold a candle to GV IMO. I liked all the ships you got, but I agree with the idea that it's a tribute. It is an R-Type game, but the slowdown and even slower pacing of the game hurt the overall experience. When I played the first stage for the first time, I was puzzled at the lack of enemies. I thought maybe I had a setting wrong, but to my surprise, there were just no enemies. Half the time was watching your ship sit idle while waiting for enemies to appear on screen.

R-Type Final is like the greatest hit's album of your favorite band, most of the songs you've heard before, and they add one or two new songs, but as a while, it's just more of the same.

Just to let you folks know, they have R-Type Final for $5 at Toys R Us. So, if you haven't picked it up by now, go out and get it you cheap shmup lovers!

[BulletMagnet]

I dare to invert BulletMagnet's statement:

*GASP!* You dare defy my statements? Don't you know that around here I am considered the epitome of all wisdom?

But yeah, I didn't mean to make it sound like the game was more of a fan disc than anything else, just that the game itself, at least from my perspective, is less important to the total package than all the extras. Honestly, imagine if Irem released a "bare bones" R-Type Final with a lot of the extra stuff missing, and the "core" game was the main event: I tend to think that shmuppers and critics would have lambasted it even more than they have with the game as it is. R-Type fans probably would have been even more angry, considering that this was supposed to be the series' "grand finale." Again, though, that's just my perspective.

[Klatrymadon]

is suppose to be tense not upbeat kind of like the new metriod games or house of the dead I guess. The music is unlike the techno stuff that the older games had and I'm guessing the reasoning for this is because Irem could not afford to do such music when in their past games the tech and the money were simply not there to do such music.

Aye, it succeeds in creating a nice thick atmosphere, I just don't feel it works too well in a shmup, or just not in an already mid-paced one like R-Type Final. I'm very happy that they had the integrity to give this odd design choice a try, though, and I'm glad that many people here are in love with it.

[Last Guardian]

1. I expect a better frame rate than Delta managed, not a worse one.
2. I expect music that's interesting and helps you get into the game.
3. I expect a first stage that isn't BORING to play through due to a midboss that takes too long to kill.

4. Basically, it't not half the game Delta was, a huge letdown.

Presented again like facts, when will you kids learn that this doesn't make for proper discussion.

1. Apart from stage 3, what are you talking about ? Delta slows down, skips frames and stutters like a loon.
2. My fave. shooter music in ages. Horses for courses or whatever you Brits call it.
3. I hear nobody complaining about the first stage in Gradius V, how's that much better then ? Besides it ties in nicely with the FB stage if recalled correctly but not many people seem to appreciate that. Nice trainingground to get familiar with the various forces/options and bits available as well.

4. Sorry it failed to grab you by the balls. Thankfully for me it's quite different from Delta (or in a way to all the other R-types), I wouldn't wan't the same game in higher resolution. Revelations !

I have gripes about RTF but they have more to do with the variation in levels/design and the length of them then all with any of the other stuff mentioned in this thread.

[Zweihander]

the slowdown actually saved my ass a couple of times. :/

my only real complaint about RTF is the graphical show-off scenes. where you're flying with a pretty background but NOTHING TO SHOOT. this happened too much in stage 1, and horrendously in stage 4. OH WOWZ THERE'S A WATERY TANK IN DA BACKGROUND! WHO NEEDS STUFF TO FIGHT, I AM THE AMAZED BY THE SCENERY ALONE!

[howmuchkeefe]

I hear nobody complaining about the first stage in Gradius V, how's that much better then ?

It seems rather action packed compared to RTF's first stage. There's a lot more stuff to shoot, and there always seems to be a way that you could have blasted one more zelos...

[Last Guardian]

My only real complaint about RTF is the graphical show-off scenes. where you're flying with a pretty background but NOTHING TO SHOOT. this happened too much in stage 1, and horrendously in stage 4. OH WOWZ THERE'S A WATERY TANK IN DA BACKGROUND! WHO NEEDS STUFF TO FIGHT, I AM THE AMAZED BY THE SCENERY ALONE!

I agree. It's too pretty.

[system11]

1. I expect a better frame rate than Delta managed, not a worse one.
2. I expect music that's interesting and helps you get into the game.
3. I expect a first stage that isn't BORING to play through due to a midboss that takes too long to kill.

4. Basically, it't not half the game Delta was, a huge letdown.

Presented again like facts, when will you kids learn that this doesn't make for proper discussion.

1. Apart from stage 3, what are you talking about ? Delta slows down, skips frames and stutters like a loon.
2. My fave. shooter music in ages. Horses for courses or whatever you Brits call it.
3. I hear nobody complaining about the first stage in Gradius V, how's that much better then ? Besides it ties in nicely with the FB stage if recalled correctly but not many people seem to appreciate that. Nice trainingground to get familiar with the various forces/options and bits available as well.

It is a fact that stage 3 in slowdown terms, is absolutely pathetic. I've yet to discover if there's any gameplay in that section when it's rendered as a matrix style bullet time section. Worse than the walker in Delta, and that always seemed harsh. Level one is just too dead feeling, and that multi leg walker is extremely boring to wade through the motions of. Gradius V l1 at least has a little more urgency to it, or at least has the good sense not to last so long. While we're at it, the L1 boss is quite boring too and takes too long to kill while posing precisely zero threat to the player.

This is coming from a fan of the series too. I even liked the offshoot, Gallop, and the flawed Leo.

[Last Guardian]

Points taken. Tbh, sometimes I feel in agreement with you on the first level (mid-) boss.

I liked/loved most of the R-type (-related) games and to my own surprise RTF (and Last Resort/Pulstar) are the ones I clicked with most. Maybe I'm just a lot less critical (can't remember a single game where the slowdown really bothered me) though

[Zweihander]

Points taken. Tbh, sometimes I feel in agreement with you on the first level (mid-) boss.

not me, i vaporize it upon arrival with my 7-loop cannon. :/

[howmuchkeefe]

RTS's slowdown only bothers me when I die on stage 3, especially if it means I have to redo the cannon/Gains section. I'll often stop playing RTF if I die here.