Best way to gauge one's skill/progress relative to others?

[heisenbergman]

I was hoping to decide on some objective/measurable way of gauging my own skill level and progress in playing shmups.

Does anyone have a method that they use?

It most probably will have something to do with one's high score relative to other high scores --- but how/what exactly?

[ACSeraph]

Pretty much just online leaderboards and our own high score forum for me.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It depends on what games you're playing. If you're not focusing on scoring and just looking to clear the game, shmups can play quite differently than if you're putting serious effort into a high score. Generally, pick a few games you're really fond of that have fun, deep scoring systems and just focus on working your way up the scoreboard?

[heisenbergman]

Pretty much just online leaderboards and our own high score forum for me.

Is there a recommendable website aside from this one that keeps track of arcade shmup high scores?

[ACSeraph]

That's an important point about whether your goal is actually scoring. If it's not and you just have a personal goal of clearing the game, then you are really only gauging yourself against your progress towards your goal. Nothing wrong with that though, it's one of the good things about shmups.

[heisenbergman]

Actually I'm more conscious about scoring atm than clearing.

[Vyxx]

Can you get past The stage 2 boss in Ibara?

That's always a good indication.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

What games exactly are you worried about? A lot of older shmups with basic scoring systems basically have score tied to survival time since scoring potential amounts to little more than "more kills = more points", whereas more detailed scoring games (Takumi, Cave, ZUN's stuff, etc) have a huge difference between a survival run with no focus on scoring and a run where you're really looking to earn as many points as possible.

[heisenbergman]

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of:

(1) If the top high score of Game A is 300,000,000 and my score is 3,000,000 - what does that say about my skill level for that game and relative to others' skill level for that game?

(2) If the top high score of Game B is 15,000,000 and my score is 150,000 - does that mean that my skill level for Games A and B are similar - or that my skill level relative to to others' is similar?

(3) What score should I strive to get in order to consider myself competent or good in a particular game. Should my goal be computed as a certain percentage of the top score?

^ Something like that. I was wondering if skill can be measured in objective/quantifiable terms and goals can be set using defined parameters to gauge progress.

[heisenbergman]

What games exactly are you worried about? A lot of older shmups with basic scoring systems basically have score tied to survival time since scoring potential amounts to little more than "more kills = more points", whereas more detailed scoring games (Takumi, Cave, ZUN's stuff, etc) have a huge difference between a survival run with no focus on scoring and a run where you're really looking to earn as many points as possible.

I don't have particular games in mind, really - just a general idea on how to go about this sort of thing.

For the sake of discussion though, let's say maybe: Battle Garegga, Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi & DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Again, this really, really depends on the game. For instance, a 1CC in Progear can expect to get anywhere from 10-20 million. However, scoring potential jacks up to a ridiculous degree if you can get to the second loop and due well (because looping the game doubles your gem count), so scores of 50 million+ are way, way harder to get to, relatively speaking. Most scores on the scoreboard are in a relatively tight range, but a second loop clear (2ALL) can net you 200+ million, maybe even 300 million, that's how crazy the scoring gap can get. Sure, you can squeeze out a few extra points in the first loop by scoring well, but if you REALLY want to score big you need to aim for a loop clear, and that's considerably tougher than a 1CC, which gives you tons of lives and bombs to use (whereas if you're looping you use a max of 2 bombs). If you're first starting out, it's more reasonable to aim for a good score relative to other 1ALL scores, before you work up to the loop, which is where the real meat of the score is.

There's also games like Salamander 2 where huge amounts of points come not from pure survival skill, but simply knowing about a couple specific scoring tricks that earn a flat 1 million points in stage 1 and stage 4 that'll vastly jack up your score. If you miss one or both of these, your score will be a lot lower, but does that mean you're worse at the game? Not necessarily, if you knew about the tricks they're not too tough to execute, so it's simply a matter of being aware of them.

For the sake of discussion though, let's say maybe: Battle Garegga, Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi & DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.

I'm not knowledgeable about any of those three to talk about high level scoring, but I do know that Garegga has so much crazy shit like bombing the birds and crazy medalling opportunities that really, there's a huge potential gap between a really basic clear and one that abuses the scoring system to get letter scores. But then I think it's usually considered necessary to play for score if you're playing for survival in order to get the extends, control rank, etc.

[NTSC-J]

Like Roo said, it really depends on the game. Post a score, we'll let you know how you're doing.

For the sake of discussion though, let's say maybe: Battle Garegga, Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi & DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.

Let's just do Ketsui:

600,000,000 : Congrats, SPS!
400,000,000: Pro-level
250,000,000: Very skilled, just need to iron some things out.
150,000,000: Good player, you're getting a handle on the game.
75,000,000: Pretty good, but you haven't really dug into it yet.
30,000,000: You hit the extend, that's a good first step.
10,000,000: This must be your first time playing.
1,000,000: Those blue and pink dots aren't power-ups.

[ciox]

It depends on the game, and how. Kind of a shitty feeling sometimes to clear or get close to the end of a game but your score doesn't even fit in the 25/etc score limit on the score board.

[Cagar]

http://www.restartsyndrome.com

Has pretty good ranking system, you just have to play lots of games!
(see Site Rankings at top right corner)

[matrigs]

I don't know if that's an indicator that makes any sense at all, but i always considered obtaining all extends possible (if they aren't infinite) as a measure if i am doing good or bad at a game.

At least this was always the minimum that i wanted to achieve before clearing the game. Obviously additional extends help you a lot with clearing a game.

[Eno]

I just pick somebody in a range of three or four spots above me and try to top his score. Generally in competitions there will always be a couple of guys constantly falling in that range most of the weeks, so I usually keep gauging my results against theirs for every game. No point in comparing my performance with the top of the scoreboards(though their replays might be useful, if available).
And that's only in competitions, for regular play I just focus on surviving or beating my own results, as I'm usually miles away from the culling scores for the forum scoreboards. Dem spreadsheets are really nice for managing that(esp. if you love graph porn).

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I'm not sure if judging your ability by a percentage of the highest score is really practical. It seems to me that scoring (often) works something like this:



Essentially, when you first start playing your score is very low, but you quickly learn some basic scoring techniques and the game's mechanics and your score quickly increases. After a while this process slows and you reach something of a wall, at this point score increases become smaller again as you try to squeeze everything you can out of the game and your own abilities. So while your score might be very low for a while you might suddenly see a large jump once you get to grips with the game, then a slowing of progression as you reach your / the game's limits. I don't pretend to know how it works for everyone but this seems to be the case for me. I hope this makes sense to people, I think i'm rambling a bit.

[Skykid]

You have four consecutive threads in shmups chat. Take a deep breath, go sit down with some shmups you like, get a feel for the genre, make some progress, guage your improvement. Easy as ABC.

[trap15]

Yeah, this ^^

[heisenbergman]

You have four consecutive threads in shmups chat. Take a deep breath, go sit down with some shmups you like, get a feel for the genre, make some progress, guage your improvement. Easy as ABC.

I have a tendency for burning myself out fast. It can't be helped. lol

[Ed Oscuro]

Burnout is the enemy of the shmups player. Don't forget that; take your time and enjoy things.

[heisenbergman]

Wait, let me create a thread on how to avoid burnout!



I kid. But no seriously... thanks for the concern, but I feel like I'm at an okay pace - I'm still able to have a life and I am still playing shmups a lot instead of just posting about them - but if you find that the amount of threads/posts or the posts in general are getting annoying, feel free to tell me

[Ed Oscuro]

No need to post a thread about burnout - if it's a thing, it's been posted about before. Example:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... it=burnout

[heisenbergman]

Let's just do Ketsui:

600,000,000 : Congrats, SPS!
400,000,000: Pro-level
250,000,000: Very skilled, just need to iron some things out.
150,000,000: Good player, you're getting a handle on the game.
75,000,000: Pretty good, but you haven't really dug into it yet.
30,000,000: You hit the extend, that's a good first step.
10,000,000: This must be your first time playing.
1,000,000: Those blue and pink dots aren't power-ups.

Wow... is this serious?

[NTSC-J]

Pretty much, yea. 10 million might be a bit high for first-time players who are new to the genre, but experienced players probably get around 20 on their first try, at least.

If you're not getting that high after some effort, don't worry about it. 1 million, though...if you're not getting that then you're really missing something fundamental about how to play.

What scores are you pulling, if you don't mind me asking?

[heisenbergman]

My best so far in Ketsui is 5M. Been into shmups for roughly two weeks or so now.

Only games I've beaten so far are Jamestown, Danmaku Unlimited 2 on Easy and BWR+ on HeavenEasy diff.

[Cagar]

My best so far in Ketsui is 5M. Been into shmups for roughly two weeks or so now.

Only games I've beaten so far are Jamestown, Danmaku Unlimited 2 on Easy and BWR+ on HeavenEasy diff.

You sure that you know how scoring works in ketsui?

[NTSC-J]

I'll send a Medivac unit out right away.

But seriously, that's not a bad start since you're just warming up to these games (and Ketsui is one of the harder ones), but it does suggest that you're missing some very basic stuff about how to play it. Maybe watch some videos then check out a guide that will explain what they're doing. That might seem like too much of a commitment at this point, but it's not a bad idea to settle into a game so that you can really start to enjoy what makes this genre so good.

[Skykid]

You're at the stage where you should be playing for survival rather than score. Just get into the genre by learning the ropes and come back for score later.

[BPzeBanshee]

I care about scoring only as relative to extends or to where I actually enjoy it if extends don't apply. Did a run of Ketsui just now and got 30mil, Game Overing at beginning of stage 4.

Agreeing with Skykid completely on this. Get a survivalist run going, try to get about half-way through the game without giving a rats about score and THEN consider getting into it. My practice run got me just over 5 mil before my 30mil run because I hadn't touched Ketsui in a while.

Also, disclaimer: I'm not a great player, at least not at Ketsui which I don't practice on enough. Practice helps a lot.