Discussing shooter elitism with Vintagevideogamegeek

[futurematt5]

Hey people,

I hope that my following submissions into this notable forum add to the debate around shooting game culture and accusations that it is an elitist genre.

The first is a video made when two you tubers from other sides of the pod, and the gaming spectrum, played CYVERN and discussed the phrase coined by Vintage:

SHOOTER ELITISM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3THg1C1ro4Q

The second is a podcast recorded with Vintage and Chris (NES complex) on their Retro Rejects channel which features more about shooter elitism, the word shmup, tate mode, a very easy shooting game quiz (v near the end) which I score a passable 3/5 on, and observations on Tom Cruise's central tooth, WD40 and the taste of Folgers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPI7he4si6c


Matt

[trap15]

There is no such thing as shooter elitism, it's just bad players who can't take being called bad and terrible because they have no intention to get better.

Either try to get better, or stop crying when people say you're bad at games.

[Zerst]

its me i was the elitist all along ha ha ha

[futurematt5]

There is no such thing as shooter elitism, it's just bad players who can't take being called bad and terrible because they have no intention to get better.

Either try to get better, or stop crying when people say you're bad at games.

That was an excellent display of shooter elitism!!

[KAI]

STG players think they are superior to any other kind of gamers. Blame the people, not the genre.

[Kollision]

Some STG players think they are superior to any other kind of gamers. Blame the people, not the genre.

corrected for great justice

[DMC]

Please define shooter elitism and we can have a discussion.

[futurematt5]

Please define shooter elitism and we can have a discussion.

Good point. OK well let's just for a minute pretend there isn't any disagreement around the shooter bit of the term. Meaning that we all kind of agree what a shooter is. Meaning a 2D shooting game. Now let's try elitism. According to Wikipedia:

Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

In plain English, shooter elitism is the belief or attitude that people who play shooting games look down on everyone else because they believe their views or actions to be more constructive to society as a whole.

[Kollision]

to be more constructive to society as a whole.

I like this part

[PedroMD]

While there probably is a bunch of guys that think along the lines of "keep playing your FPSs with checkpoints every fifteen seconds, suckers, while I play REAL games that take REAL skill", one might argue that there are assholes in every community.

[dark]

Maybe it's even more exaggerated these days with how simple and catering to the player that mainstream games are, but I genuinely feel like I am better at video games than my nonshmup playing friends, based on my shmup prowess (yay... lol).

Basically, because of practice, I can survive a long time in most danmaku shmups, and dodge bullet patterns that my non-shmup playing friends simply cannot. My non shmup playing friends would probably run out of continues in level 1 or early on by level 2 of any shmup game after almost constant deaths anytime a large number of bullets comes onscreen.

It's not only a memorization thing either for dodging bullets, but a reflex and eye tracking thing. Many other current gen games that my friends are used to playing are comfortable and fairly simple to survive and play - FPSs, driving games, sports games, etc. But danmakus are different in terms of their intense difficulty curve and foreboding looking bullet patterns (unskilled friends cannot easily see ways through large bullet patterns, so waves of bullets = instant death for them). I'm certain my friends would get better with practice, but they don't practice, in many cases - because they feel like they are bad at shmups (they are), that shmups are too hard to be fun (they are, for someone used to comfortable gaming and who does not like dying) and that the shmups seem old fashioned because of being sprite based or because of the 2D plane the player moves on, and so the games are not fun for them.

Now even though I am way better than my friends at shmups, I've never come close to doing a 1CC in any shmup. This pinnacle of shmup playing separates casual and imo, "good" shmup players, from the completely obsessed. It seems to me like it takes an absurd degree of memorization and hours put into the game to reach the 1CC standpoint, and if I put this time and effort into learning a particular game, I would no longer be having any fun with it. Why do this huge investment of time and effort for a 1CC in an intensely difficult game outside of bragging rights/elitism?

[Randorama]

In plain English, shooter elitism is the belief or attitude that people who play shooting games look down on everyone else because they believe their views or actions to be more constructive to society as a whole.

Well, I thought that shmup elitism (cf. name of the forum...) is the belief (which is an attitude, like many others) that an individual has, when he believes that his ability to play shooters with good to excellent command of the relevant skills is enough a warranty to look down upon those who do not possess, nor desire to develop and possess the relevant skill sets to play shooters competently (N.B. desires are also attitudes).

In plain English, it is when shmup fans tell n00bs to STFU, LTP or GTFO.

Of course, I firmly believe that my views are more constructive to the universe as a whole, but that is because I am the elite among the elites. Other elitists may be more modest, but that is because they do not try hard.

Aside this, when I will be the ruler and Magus of the world, the universal church of rank and truth will be the one and only dogma, and children will only be allowed to be baptized Bruce and John, Chitta[/] if they're girls.


xoxo

Rando Warlock

[VideoGameRescue]

I am new to jumping in to shmup communities even though I have always been a fan of the genre. Honestly, from the communities I have talked to, I have not ran in to that at all. I really did not think of getting involved with communities until I started doing reviews. Honestly, yes, there are rumors of what you speak of, but from my personal experience, outside of maybe a few people, that does not exist.

I mean, you guys are probably the one community I was worried would kick my teeth in (metaphorically), but you guys welcomed me in with open arms.

So, from somebody who is new to these communities, I will say that I have not experienced that at all.

Even when I got involved in the Neo Geo scene (I don't post around there often out of not having anything to say, similar to here. I don't want to post just to post) and they also welcomed me with open arms.

I would love to meet the "elitist" people who they refer to, since, as I see it, you guys are very cool and also respect other's opinions. Let's face it, my opinions are pretty wide out in the open and while some of you may not agree with my opinions, you respect them, and I respect yours. It is not some shouting match about how I like one game, so there is no way I could be a "true shmup fan" or whatever.

[ebarrett]

One of the guys in the video dies two seconds into stage 1, of course everyone looks like an elitist to them

Please define shooter elitism and we can have a discussion.

Good point. OK well let's just for a minute pretend there isn't any disagreement around the shooter bit of the term. Meaning that we all kind of agree what a shooter is. Meaning a 2D shooting game. Now let's try elitism. According to Wikipedia:

Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

In plain English, shooter elitism is the belief or attitude that people who play shooting games look down on everyone else because they believe their views or actions to be more constructive to society as a whole.

Well, what do you know - there are "elitists" in this thread and it's not the people who are good at shooters!

[ACSeraph]

There is no such thing as shooter elitism, it's just bad players who can't take being called bad and terrible because they have no intention to get better.

Either try to get better, or stop crying when people say you're bad at games.

This 100%. SRK tough love for scrubs.

It seems to me like it takes an absurd degree of memorization and hours put into the game to reach the 1CC standpoint, and if I put this time and effort into learning a particular game, I would no longer be having any fun with it. Why do this huge investment of time and effort for a 1CC in an intensely difficult game outside of bragging rights/elitism?

It's not elitism that motivates me to pursue 1cc's, it's that amazing sense of accomplishment I get when the final boss goes down in flames. There's no greater feeling in single player gaming imo.

-----

Also as someone who spends most of my time with the fighting game community, I really don't see any elitism here.

[rancor]

In plain English, shooter elitism is the belief or attitude that people who play shooting games look down on everyone else because they believe their views or actions to be more constructive to society as a whole.

This is a joke, right? As in an article for some kind of gamer centric The Onion?
If you're a person that believes playing one genre of games makes you better than people that play another, aside from a serious case of narcissism, you've got some issues that need to be worked out in multiple therapy sessions. Video games. lol.

While there probably is a bunch of guys that think along the lines of "keep playing your FPSs with checkpoints every fifteen seconds, suckers, while I play REAL games that take REAL skill", one might argue that there are assholes in every community.

Who? Lets start naming names! I keep hearing this about our community, but I have never once seen it attributed to a user name or witnessed it being said. Who are these mythical, winged asshole elitists that are so prevalent in this genre of gaming?

[Drake]

Good point. OK well let's just for a minute pretend there isn't any disagreement around the shooter bit of the term. Meaning that we all kind of agree what a shooter is. Meaning a 2D shooting game. Now let's try elitism.

When STG players say "shooter" in a situation where it makes sense for them to mean an STG, then maybe, just maybe, they say it to mean STG. Not that anyone even says "shooter" without the words "top-down" or something of the sort, this is all you naming things.

Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

Bold portion is just plain true. If you have a doctor, especially with experience in a certain field, they do have more credibility in that area and their views and actions are more likely to be constructive or beneficial.

In plain English, shooter elitism is the belief or attitude that people who play shooting games look down on everyone else because they believe their views or actions to be more constructive to society as a whole.

So, in plain english, you are a shooter elitist.

[BIL]

Hurt feelings thread Scawy ewitists run rampant on the means streets of system11

I don't see how I can get any better. The reason I am not improving is because I am as good as it is possible to be.

AND LOOK WHAT YOU DID TO THIS MAN, YOU FUCKIN SHMUPS ELITISTS :[

[PedroMD]

Who? Lets start naming names! I keep hearing this about our community, but I have never once seen it attributed to a user name or witnessed it being said. Who are these mythical, winged asshole elitists that are so prevalent in this genre of gaming?

I don't have any names to name, and honestly haven't seen any of this around here either, but probably there is someone that thinks along these lines even if they don't voice it. Not because this is prevalent in this genre of gaming, but because it's something that is bound to happen within any community. People like to feel special for what they do or like. ACSeraph mentioned the fighting game community, and I suppose this line of thinking may be easily found there, fighting games being a "hardcore skill based" and highly competitive genre. Hell, there are FPS players that shun shmups while saying "ok, keep playing your cartoon fifteen minute 2D games while I play REAL games", and of these I've seen plenty.
My point was not that people here are assholes, but that discussion about elitism within a genre won't go anywhere.

[Weak Boson]

I feel similar to VideoGameRescue's. There's no sneering over people who post less than gobsmacking scores, and we all know that even if a certain 1CC isn't the greatest accomplishment it can still be a big deal to the player. Experienced players are more likely to help people out than anything else.

But this is what it looks like to me from within. Most people probably don't understand the appeal of these games - or at least, what the appeal of playing them for 1CC/score is apposed to just wanting to blow stuff up. So when someone says "you should play without continues" or "you should try to improve your score" they can't see why that might be fun so it just comes across as "don't come anywhere near me with that you filthy disgusting casual"

Now, what trap says might sound like shooter elitism, but there's only so much you can expect people to give to try and help someone get better before it really is just down to them. I'm sure we can all agree on that to an extent. But it's not hard to imagine how a gamer used to trotting around Skyrim might not buy into that way of thinking. And I hope it's not hard to see how frustrating it could be for someone trying to explain it to them.

So even when there are clashes I don't think you can necessarily call it elitism. It would certainly be a misconception to say that it was typical of the community.

By the way I enjoyed the youtube video and podcast, nice going.

[hail good sir]

Who? Lets start naming names! I keep hearing this about our community, but I have never once seen it attributed to a user name or witnessed it being said. Who are these mythical, winged asshole elitists that are so prevalent in this genre of gaming?

This....and videogamerescue basically said the same thing, so that too. People put themselves down needlessly all the time in the intro thread for example, as some sort of appeasement to the winged creature and it's really weird. I think people just mistake "getting jumped on for saying stupid shit" with "those no life elitist wannabe whatevers" or something. And then some fake narrative is created. I don't actually know.

For example, I don't put much weight in a 1cc (it depends on the game, just in case someone wants to jump on me for not respecting a futari ultra clear or whatever). I think it's kind of arbitrary and that's my opinion. I go for them but I'm usually just as interested in my own score milestones, most of the time. If someone says "game sucks I beat it in 20 minutes" because they credit fed through it in some review, that definitely qualifies as "saying dumb shit" and it has nothing to do with whether or not they used a continue.

[chum]

A bit of elitism never hurt anyone. some people possess more expertise on certain subjects and they are entitled to show that given the correct circumstances. Just don't be an asshole about it, basically, and that's where things turn subjective because some people are more sensitive than others and will start shouting "elitist!" at anything that moves. I think someone being so easily offended by someone else's superiority is a good indicator that they are in fact narcissistic.

Then again, OPs definition of elitism (in relation to shooting games) is confused, absurd even.

Also, you guys, deny it if you want, but elitism exists and there are people that will take any chance they get to show that they are in some way superior to whoever else. I think the reason some people don't act this way as much on this forum as they could is because, like most people, they don't want to stick out as assholes. It takes either a lot courage or narcissism to be the asshole when everyone else is compromising, but as always it depends on context, you can be elitist all you want about certain subjects because It's become the norm and nobody cares if you're an asshole about it (like all the people mindlessly bashing Touhou fans) - It's so common that nobody bats an eye.

The OPs own definition of "shooting elitism" is as mentioned completely absurd and I cannot take it seriously. If he meant something else, I'd love to see some clarification!

[ACSeraph]

Double post FAIL

[ACSeraph]

ACSeraph mentioned the fighting game community, and I suppose this line of thinking may be easily found there, fighting games being a "hardcore skill based" and highly competitive genre.

Specifically striving to be better than everyone else is exactly what will eventually make you better than everyone else.

It's a kind of competitive elitism, and it's the driving force behind the entire fighting game community. Sometimes you might come off as an elitist dick to scrubby players, but that's only because you are trying to help them stop being such scrubs.

If anything I think shmup players could benefit from this mindset.

[trap15]

^

[pestro87]

If you're offended by elitism, then you're obviously not confident in your own skill.

I will check out the episode. I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say.

[EmperorIng]

I sometimes notice displays of supposed elitism (and they are usually almost exclusively in Cave threads), but it is always balanced out by a good healthy dose of anti-Cave posts.

Also, the video seems to be bringing up the ol' "Do you use continues or not?" debate, which I thought was always really silly. I thought it silly when this place conditioned me to try and always do 1-credit runs, but it's a whole lot wiser to actually learn the game before you try and master it.

[Pretas]

There should be no shame in admitting that you are bad at something, as long as you don't try to make sorry excuses for it.

[louisg]

If you're offended by elitism, then you're obviously not confident in your own skill.

It depends what is meant by elitism. It's not good to be a jerk to a newbie.

Also, the video seems to be bringing up the ol' "Do you use continues or not?" debate, which I thought was always really silly. I thought it silly when this place conditioned me to try and always do 1-credit runs, but it's a whole lot wiser to actually learn the game before you try and master it.

I think it's because so many people credit-feed through a shmup, then come away thinking they're too easy, skill-less, random, and too short. But if the goal is to 1cc, suddenly it becomes a surprisingly fair, challenging, and extremely replayable game. Of course, having fun is priority number one. I usually multi-credit games until I get comfortable with them and then start just playing one or two credits.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It depends what is meant by elitism. It's not good to be a jerk to a newbie.

I can't say I've ever seen this here. Usually the really good players are the ones who actually provide advice and write guides, because more people interested in the game keeps it popular, helps draw more people to the game, finding new strategies, etc. Even Gus during his Futari Ultra 'full-shmup' phase wasn't really targeting newbies, per se. He was just going crazy from all the full-shmupping. :p

This thread sounds like it's trying to address a problem that doesn't actually exist, at least not in any widespread sense.