Thunder Force AC + Sega Saturn TF Gold Pack 2

[louisg]

... rules! I just got the Gold Pack 2, and I'm impressed by how tight the gameplay feels. It seems a bit more challenging even on defaults than the Genesis revision. I might even like it more than the original. Though, I have to say, the Thunder Force II mashup level feels out of place. Of all the graphics they redrew, those should've been among them-- some of the sprites look right out of some beginner's Deluxe Paint II session.

What're your thoughts on this masterpiece?

[louisg]

Oh come on, no comments? It's in MAME-- there's no excuse!

[BrianC]

I still need to try and beat TFIII on Genesis, but I do plan to pick up the Saturn Gold Pack 2 at some point. I found the sprites in TFII's side scrolling levels to be odd as well, though I feel the way they play makes up for it.

[To Far Away Times]

I remember trying this not too long after playing ThunderForce III and I didn't like it as much. I didn't like the arranged music, and I preferred the visuals in the genesis version as well. I felt like it lost something in the transition to the arcade. I still need to go back and give this one a fair shot though.

[Limbrooke]

Oh come on, no comments? It's in MAME-- there's no excuse!

Perhaps since is not much to be said. You hit on some points, the added levels and the challenge increase from Genesis overall on the old levels. I can simply state that Gold Pack is running AC as the Japan revision so it's the most challenging version (versus World). It's alright but ultimately if going for score, a no-death max kill run is required which can be a little frustrating - I thought so anyway.

[BIL]

TFGP2 is probably the single best Tecno Soft shooter release one could own.* Saturn Thunder Force IV blows the doors off the struggling MD version, and TFAC is my favourite incarnation of TFIII, counting the MD original and Thunder Spirits (going by JP versions for all three). Losing Hades is a shame, but the new asteroid base stage is quality and it also junked the boring Seiren, which was always the weak link of TFIII. I'll take the TFII cameo stage any day.

It's also noticeably tougher on Mania than TFIII, adding that extra bit of frontal offense Orn Base lacks on MD.

I would've posted all this before, but I kinda exhausted my current TF groove a few weeks back.

*I'm a Tecno Soft freak, so I had to have SS Hyper Duel and consider it just as essential. But although I put its SS mode dead even with SS TFIV for their best shooter, its price makes it a comparative luxury purchase, especially when TFGP2 also packs TFAC for a fraction of the cost.

[louisg]

Losing Hades is a shame, but the new asteroid base stage is quality and it also junked the boring Seiren, which was always the weak link of TFIII. I'll take the TFII cameo stage any day.

I always liked Seiren. That one's in there. Are you thinking of Ellis? I like that one too, with its diagonal scrolling and ice spikes. The level I thought was the most boring in TF3 was the outside of the mothership.

I've been also trying Thunderforce 4 on the Gold Pack, and it seems a lot harder, even compared with playing the original on an overclocked Genesis. I wonder if it's a Japanese version vs. North American version thing, or maybe it's just the smoothness combined with a lack of practice. For example, that damn ball the first boss shoots out nailed me a bunch of times, and I don't think I've ever been killed by it once on the Genesis revision. But does anyone know if there are tweaks on the Saturn version that aren't in the Genesis/MD editions?

TFAC is my favourite incarnation of TFIII

I may have to agree. It's damn impressive. I really like how much harder it is, the difficulty curve seems to ramp up more (for example, Seiren was always a pushover on TF3 but often kicks my ass on TCAC), and the bosses don't go down without a fight (in TF3 you could Saber most of them in less than 15 seconds).

[BIL]

Gahh! Yep, it's definitely Ellis I meant. Starts off nicely with lots of fast strikers, ground-to-air turrets and those erupting serpents, but that long diagonal scrolling section followed by a vertical one, where the main threat are extremely obvious and easily-dodged icicles, really bogs it down. Music is a bit too laid-back, as well. Feels out of place after the brutal and awesomely presented memoriser gauntlet of Hades. The boss is pretty nice though, and luckily it's in AC as well. Cerberus (huge battleship) is pretty boring, but it's short, fun to look at and the BGM is incredible - lesser evil, imo. Seiren is a masterpiece, I love battling against the current hazard in those tight caves and destroying those vertical lasers with Fire before they can scroll in too close.

I've never compared Lightening Force to the JP TFIV, but Icarus actually posted about that exact issue (Gargoylediver's homing sphere) in this thread. So yeah, TFIV, like TFIII and TFAC, is indeed harder in JP format.

AFAIK, Saturn Thunder Force IV is a straight copy of the MD cart, besides the obvious addition of Styx mode. All my usual tricks worked on Normal, at least. Never bothered with MD's higher difficulties so I can't say, but from videos it seems about right with how the Saturn version behaves.

[stryc9]

That ball that the 1st boss fires at you has actually killed me a couple of times as well since I got the NTSCJ MD version (had the PAL one as a kid), or the second one it shoots has, anyway. It's like you need to lead it around the screen for longer or something.

They may have jumped the difficulty up on that part, I don't know, but overall I'm a lot better at this game than when I was younger

[Obiwanshinobi]

Somebody on here once expressed belief that some of the original TFIV's slowdown was of the controlled kind, thus the Saturn port would be technically broken. Not that I care as I don't like controlled slowdown in shmups (when it has nothing to do with hardware limitations, it's just retro for the heck of it).
Even slowdown in Zanac Special Version feels like a foreign body to me.

[BIL]

I do remember that, we may be thinking of the same thread. (ouch, that was before I learned to stop worrying and love the Tecno Soft >_> )

Owning both versions, if there really is any software slowdown in the MD code, I'm glad the SS conversion team ditched it along with the ton of hardware slowdown. I can't think of a single instance even on Mania where slowdown is warranted, it's not that kind of shooter. Fixed rather than broken, I'd say.

[Spyke]

... rules!

Agreed!

[The Coop]

Shame they botched the sound effects in the TF2 pack (TF IV is the most noticeable). The music's fine, but the effects sound tinny and lacking compared to the MD/Genesis original effects. It's like the they sucked most of the bass out of them. The rest of the game's great without the slowdown and such, but the effects issue hurt it IMHO.

[BIL]

Yeah, that is one concession TFGP2 makes to the MD TFIV cart. I'd take the Saturn's weaker sfx over the MD's lagging music, though. I don't think I'd actually mind 95% of the MD slowdown if the BGM kept up.

Streaming redbook BGM is the last nail in the coffin for TFGP1, imo. So lame that it didn't include X68K TFII to give it some advantage over the carts.

[stryc9]

I'd take the Saturn's weaker sfx over the MD's lagging music, though. I don't think I'd actually mind 95% of the MD slowdown if the BGM kept up.

Whaa? I've never noticed the music slowing down in MD TFIV. I know part of the BGM dissapears when you hold down the shoot button, but not what you describe here.

[BIL]

It's only in the most extreme cases of processor overload that the BGM will bog down, but I find that just makes it more annoying. An easy spot to trigger it is in the default first stage's pre-boss Huge Battleship encounter, when you pass under the ship and tons of parallax ocean is rushing past - fire the CRAW-enhanced Railgun while the tail is launching homing fireballs and "Evil Destroyer" loses its tempo.

Actually, C.Railgun may be a particularly bad offender, as you can also bog the music down by dashing behind the Ruins (default st2) boss and blasting away as it uses its thrust attack, and doing similar to Air Raid (st3's) boss. I notice CRAW Hunter causes more slowdown than the other weapons too.

TFIII MD technically has this same issue, but it's incredibly hard to trigger and will only last for a split second. Try firing CRAW Sever during that early part of Gorgon, when those horizonal laserers and their beams are onscreen, and the BGM will lag a tiny bit.

[stryc9]

Wow, Ok. Apparently I haven't been pushing this game hard enough

[louisg]

It's only in the most extreme cases of processor overload that the BGM will bog down, but I find that just makes it more annoying

I remember noticing this a lot in an emulator, but not on the NTSC US cart. Maybe it only affects some versions..?

[BIL]

Possibly (otherwise I may be going insane and conflating emulation with hardware - been a while since I was with my MD). I know the PAL version is supposed to be less noticeable with slowdown (although this is possibly due to it running at and being optimised for 50hz).

[BrianC]

I noticed some games sound a bit different on Genesis/MD 2 compared to the early model 1 Genesis/MDs, as well. Not completely sure on this, but if I remember correctly, MD2's sound seems to be more prone to dropouts.

[louisg]

Yeah, it could be I need to slow it down even more than I have been, too. What I remember from way back when I was running it on Genecyst was that the music slowed down so badly that there was no way you'd miss it.

Somebody on here once expressed belief that some of the original TFIV's slowdown was of the controlled kind, thus the Saturn port would be technically broken. Not that I care as I don't like controlled slowdown in shmups (when it has nothing to do with hardware limitations, it's just retro for the heck of it).

I don't think it is-- it makes the game pretty choppy. I do notice some parts are a little harder though because they just move faster without slowdown.

Shame they botched the sound effects in the TF2 pack (TF IV is the most noticeable). The music's fine, but the effects sound tinny and lacking compared to the MD/Genesis original effects. It's like the they sucked most of the bass out of them

Huh, I'll have to listen closer. One thing I do like about the Saturn edition is the voices are clean and don't make the music cut out. Re: music, I'm actually not sure if the music *is* fine. It sounds a little screwy to me. But, of course, Genesis tunes sound different depending on which model you are using anyway.

BTW as part of my TF binge, I got Thunderforce V for Saturn and have been enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would. I used to think it was the weakest of the TF games (at least since 2), but now I'm not sure. It's choppy to be sure, and the 3d is mostly of the "help! I don't know how to use 3d!" variety as well as some of the 2d graphics even being kind of blah, but it plays pretty nicely! Great soundtrack, too. Now I just need to find TF1 somewhere and my collection will be complete

[slk486]

Somebody on here once expressed belief that some of the original TFIV's slowdown was of the controlled kind, thus the Saturn port would be technically broken. Not that I care as I don't like controlled slowdown in shmups (when it has nothing to do with hardware limitations, it's just retro for the heck of it).

I don't think it is-- it makes the game pretty choppy. I do notice some parts are a little harder though because they just move faster without slowdown.

I agree. Overclocking the console completely removes the slowdown. Controlled delays wouldn't just be empty cpu cycles.