What 2013 choice by retrogamer for TV+Upscaler

Emperor Udan · Post by **Emperor Udan** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:57 pm

Hi,

I know this topic was may be already created but I want to make it simple.
Imagine you are a retrogamer, moving in a new apartment, in need of pixels...
You always played on good old CRT but you want to improve your life with flat (yes you do).

I was looking for a PC monitor, but it is too small for a big room and what I'm looking for.
My goal is to play retro system from Master system/Nes to PS2 on flat TV.
My system are almost all NTSC Jap 60hz but some are PAL Euro 50hz.
I would like to know what Tv you will choose and most important which upscaler.

I already do some research on it and start thinking frameister was the best.
But deeply reading make my mind crazy about bugs from different users.

What are your choice for less input lag, crisp pictures, scanlines, and simply the best for every old systems?

Thanks and sorry for my bad english.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:09 pm

A Sony W series TV set along with a XRGB-Mini. No alternatives around.

Overkill · Post by **Overkill** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:23 pm

How much will a baby like that cost in €uros?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:12 pm

47" has an official retail price of 1300 EUR with street prices of around 1100 EUR.

RGB32E · Post by **RGB32E** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:01 pm

http://www.sony.pt/product/tv-117-46-lc ... t=15044703

I'd go with the W905 over the W800 for the Triluminos backlighting. I can't say if the W8 has the same input lag as the W9. The W9 has only a little over a frame of lag.

brentsg · Post by **brentsg** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:17 pm

How's the KDL-55W900A in terms of lag? I was looking to swap out my 1990's kids TV for that.

For their room, I need something bright.. durable.. and low lag for gaming. Edit, dang they dropped Gorilla glass. There went my durability.

It sucks the Panasonic plasmas are bad. I bought one for my mom recently and it's a fantastic TV.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:34 pm

W800 and W900 are both pretty good in terms of input lag (with the W900 a few ms slower). According the HDTVtest.co.uk reviews the best LCDs since a very long time. There were some Philips sets out there with supposedly sub-1-frame lags as well, but they never made it to the major review sites.

brentsg · Post by **brentsg** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:45 pm

Fudoh wrote:W800 and W900 are both pretty good in terms of input lag (with the W900 a few ms slower). According the HDTVtest.co.uk reviews the best LCDs since a very long time. There were some Philips sets out there with supposedly sub-1-frame lags as well, but they never made it to the major review sites.

Thanks for the link to that site, wasn't aware of their focus on lag. I guess it's only something I get interested in when it's TV time.

I see they have some explanation in terms of recent plasma tests not looking good with the lag gizmo.

Emperor Udan · Post by **Emperor Udan** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:58 pm

Thanks for the answer.

I have been reading as much as possible everywhere.
The bad side of this setting seems to be input lag.
Mini is said to be 24.5ms and XRGB-3 in B1 (linedoubling mode)= 2ms
One French forumer think that for low input lag, one of the best otpion is XRGB3 + DVDO VP30 for 240p.
Sad thing, it star to get expensive...

I'm a little bit lost, aarrrg.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:08 pm

It really depends on your display. Most displays these days (and I really mean 80+%) have an input lag of 2 to 2.5 frames, sometimes even higher. If you get the right display, the Mini is absolutely ok. You should know how sensible you are to input lag. Doesn't make any sense to brag about it, when you can't even feel it.

XRGB-3 + DVDO is a nice option, but it's a far more complicated setup requiring sync processing for some sources and a lot more custom cabling.

Emperor Udan · Post by **Emperor Udan** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:21 pm

I know it's a bit uppish (not sure of this word in english sorry) to said being sensible to lag.
I'm not a pro player but I kinda have a good level in KoF 98 and Dragon Blaze for exemple.
The only thing that bug me is money finally.
If I were rich, I will buy all scaler but he, I'm not...

Simplicity of mini seems a very good point for me.
I will search now for feedback of player with a little bit lag now.

Thanks again for all your advices, as always.

slk486 · Post by **slk486** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:00 am

Fudoh wrote: displays these days (and I really mean 80+%) have an input lag of 2 to 2.5 frames, sometimes even higher. If you get the right display, the Mini is absolutely ok.

Thing is going from 2 to 4 isn't as obvious as going from 0 to 2. Having fast displays myself, I feel very sensitive to lag on arcade boards for example, but with a modern 3d title where lag is already upwards of 80ms, you really won't feel the increase. Having a fast display is part of the problem

@Emperor Udan:
At the moment it's the quest for the holy grail. I've come to realize that it's a question of how much you can get used to, because once you've forced yourself to get on with it for a while, you'll perhaps realize that you're not that sensitive to it any longer. In many cases you feel sensitive to it, because you're looking for it.

Emperor Udan · Post by **Emperor Udan** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:18 pm

I know you are right about that, I was indeed looking for advantage of Framemeister with input lag of xrgb3.
If I buy a 17ms sony TV, xrgb3 is perfect, sadly for mini.

The thing is that I don't have any real feedback of hardcore gamer playing on mini.
Yes, some say that on paper mini is 24ms, but i just want to be sure it really is.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:25 pm

If I buy a 17ms sony TV, xrgb3 is perfect

but only with the DVDO. Otherwise you're actually out of luck there, since the XRGB-3 requires VGA for it's fast linedoubling mode, but the recent Sony TVs ditched the VGA input.

Yes, some say that on paper mini is 24ms, but i just want to be sure it really is.

no, on paper (or on screen) the Mini's much faster. The 24ms have been measured by me and other users.

Emperor Udan · Post by **Emperor Udan** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:37 pm

Just to be sure (sorry my english is sometimes weird), when you are saying 24ms, you mean framemeister do only 0-2ms lag and the 20ms left lag is coming from tv? The Framemeister is faster or equal in input lag speed as older xrgb?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:43 pm

No, the Mini has about 24ms on it's own. TV's lag gets added to this.

The Mini is faster than the XRGB-3 in B0, but slower than the XRGB-3 in B1 mode. B0 is upscaling and output through DVI or VGA. B1 is linedoubling and output through VGA only.

The problem is simply that the XRGB-3's compatibility with newer TVs is going down hill.....

Emperor Udan · Post by **Emperor Udan** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:59 pm

Last 2 questions:
What are difference between b0 and b1 on mini only?
Do you play only with mini in b0 yourself?

slk486 · Post by **slk486** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:21 pm

B0 and B1 are settings on the XRGB-3, not the mini.

Seems no matter which processing mode you choose on the mini, the input lag is about the same.

Wat fudoh is saying is the XRGB-3 has almost no input lag in B1 mode, but requires a vga input on your monitor.

Emperor Udan · Post by **Emperor Udan** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:33 am

OK everything is clear now thanks.
So if Sony 17ms+mini 24ms, I'll get 41ms, so 0,04 second of lag.
If I do so many research on it is because I never experience flat screen and the fact that people where talking about lag make me scare.

I remember playing Kirby on GBA.
In one mini game, you had to push a button as fast as possible when you heard the start signal.
There was a chrono showing you the time you take to push the button from the signal.
It make me 0.9 to 0.11 sec to push usually.
I start to think I will barely notice 0.4 sec to be honest.

slk486 · Post by **slk486** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:55 am

Correct.

41ms is equivalent to around 2.5 frames in a 60 fps game.

There's often also input lag native to the game, though, so final lag will vary.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

alamone · Post by **alamone** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:48 pm

If you can live with a smaller size TV, the 37" Panasonic Vieras with Alpha-IPS are a good choice, very low input lag and have VGA inputs, so you can use older XRGB-2 series fine.
If you need a big TV, then I would go with the new Sony sets. However I hear that their viewing angles are not too good so you may want to check it out in store first.

Overkill · Post by **Overkill** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:03 am

47" has an official retail price of 1300 EUR with street prices of around 1100 EUR

Fudoh just to be sure, is this model we are talking about? TV LED 47'' 3D SONY KDL-47W805 http://www.worten.pt/store/inicio/image ... 7w805.html

Overkill · Post by **Overkill** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:17 pm

Strange, i just found this reviews, and seems they just promote samsung and panasonic: http://lcdtvbuyingguide.com/best-gaming-tv.html

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:41 pm

they don't care about lag or anything. Right the first Samsung set they recommend, the F8000, has 40-45ms of lag in game mode. I'm not very sensitive to lag, so I don't really care about 3 frames of lag for most of the games, but especially for the kind of games we focus on here (or anything retro related in general), you can do so much better.

Last week I set up a Sony W6 along with a Framemeister a friend's house. Great and VERY affordable setup. The W6 uses a MVA+ panel with considerably stronger blacks than your usual IPS panel. And a very low native input lag as well... For a pure gaming setup, the W6 is likely the very best choice right now. If you want it for movies as well, the W8 is the better choice.

blackoak · Post by **blackoak** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:12 pm

what would be a good choice for a 50"+ tv, low lag, with a vga input? I'd rather not replace my xrgb3 if I don't have to. Seems like all new LCD/LED/Plasma models have ditched the vga input, but what would be the best, most recent low lag option there? I've considered a projector too, but I don't think I have the right space for it.

alamone · Post by **alamone** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:37 pm

I would still go with the Sony W900. Yes there is no VGA input, but you can easily use a RGB to Component transcoder (I use the Box1020) and continue to use your XRGB as normal. That is what I do. I ended up buying this TV and it really is the best large size (55") TV for gaming in my opinion. The other TV I might consider is the new 65" W850, depending on the input lag numbers. It is one notch below the W900 in their product line, and is missing the "deep black" panel and the higher hz interpolation stuff.

If you come to the next meet, you can demo this TV at my place. I also have the Leo Bodnar lag tester as well.

While I considered the 4K Sony sets as they've dropped in price a lot, they are still not as fast as the 900W for 1080P input lag.
Further, with the uncertainty of HDMI 2.0 for 4K at 60hz, I'm holding off on 4K.

shinjig · Post by **shinjig** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:41 pm

Wouldn't a DVDO edge in game mode (assuming you can find one) but a good low lag solution?

brentsg · Post by **brentsg** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:56 pm

I have recently picked up a Denon E400 AVR and I wanted to mention that there's essentially no lag @1080p when the unit is switched into game mode. I assume the higher end X series would be the same, but I can't confirm.

I was looking to get an X2000 but the E400 was $300 at Frys.

alamone · Post by **alamone** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Wow, even AVRs are conspiring to add additional lag to your signal.
I'm using an older Onkyo model (TX-SR805) that has a setting to pass the HDMI signal untouched.
I guess as a workaround you could use a HDMI splitter and feed the signal into your TV and AVR separately.

brentsg · Post by **brentsg** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:05 pm

Most current AVRs will add latency for sure, as they want to add onscreen display elements overlayed onto the output (at minimum). I was pleasantly surprised with the new Denon and verified with the lag tester device.

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