Don't come to Brazil World Cup 2014

[Shatterhand]

[KAI]

You know, a boicot is not a good idea. If they have spend tax money on those stadiums, its better to let the fucking world cup go on so they can retrieve what they have invested.

[Shatterhand]

http://youtu.be/AIBYEXLGdSg

[BulletMagnet]

Do most countries that make investments like this (stadiums, etc.) for the Olympics and other international events ever recoup (or profit from) what they spend to bring them there? There's an inevitable uproar pretty much anyplace on the schedule for one of these things, along the same lines ("we already have plenty of important things we could/should spend money on, why add this?"), but I rarely hear much about the aftermath, i.e. was the investment worth it or not? I'm curious what the ratio of "good investment vs. waste of money" might be for the various events...

[CStarFlare]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_the_Olympic_Games

Who get a return on the investment, and what are the non-financial impacts of the event may be more important questions, though.

[Ed Oscuro]

Brazil isn't unique in this, and this kind of situation isn't unique to big projects like this - here is pretty much the same story, except with a clearly-defined set of winners and losers, rather than the loose association of marauding interests allied for this World Cup. Most of us get understandably upset by the expectation that there will be a lot of money to be made by throwing a huge sum - billions of dollars' equivalent in one gulp - but the same patterns we can see here happen all the time, even in "respectable, developed" places, and when the swindle is planned over decades it's easier to lose focus over it.

I don't believe you really can "throw good money after bad," but any investment has to more than recoup its expense. And just wishing something to be profitable, by throwing more money at it, is just increasing the cost.

People always talk about goodwill for tourism and investment. But who will go to a place just because they have an Olympic Village? It's giving people the confidence that they can move around the country at large, and that there are things to see, that makes most people want to come visit. For countries which have international acclaim for tourism or popular culture, it still probably doesn't make a difference, for the reason that (again) it's pretty much irrelevant to the question of interest; unless you are a party that stands to gain free advertising on an international scale, or just make a lot of money selling services (construction, entertainers, caterers, that kind of thing). Pretty much everybody else knows to be cautious. I'd expect airlines (for example) to be cautious because they need to make sure they aren't building (or being expected to maintain) infrastructure which will represent huge unused capacity for the future. In principle this probably just means they ask for new terminal facilities and a sweetheart deal to have no liability and to leave whenever they like.

Politicians are good at focusing laser-like on a specific goal, and saying that you can get this or that, and it will result in this or that. But, like rhetoric, a prestige project doesn't accomplish anything but a fuzzy feeling in one's stomach for a few moments, and after the swelling recedes then you start feeling for the bruises. Unfortunately, a good balanced approach is harder to sell or even to comprehend. How do you catch peoples' attention by saying "we need money for ten thousand small projects that won't be noticed by many?" It's much more interesting to watch Brian Fitzgerald (i.e., Klaus Kinski in Fitzcarraldo) screaming from the bellfry about MEIN OBERHAUSEN in the jungle.

In short, nobody gets a return on investment, unless you count the costs of private industry lobbying for a games. But they certainly wouldn't put up the cost of a games on the strength of its investment, themselves.

The only way it makes sense is if that infrastructure is going to be kept up for a long period and the space used for other functions. I am not sure that even in a place with dire problems that you shouldn't have a prestige project; it's something that actually can make peoples' lives better and pride can't be underestimated. But I expect that (as usual) accessibility will be limited and many of the people paying for it won't ever get inside.

[Ruldra]

If you're coming to Fortaleza, expect to have one hell of a time. As in, a really bad time. Our city just doesn't have the infrastructure to receive millions of tourists.

Recently we had an event over at the stadium where some of the matches will be held, and it was a complete disaster. Many, many kilometers of traffic congestion to reach the stadium, and that happened with the local population alone. I can't imagine how's gonna be with a shitload more of tourists around.

We also just had a public protest about how violent our city has become. Police can hardly manage the countless robberies and murders we have around here. And they don't really do anything about it. The Facebook group calling people to take part of the protest was mysteriously deleted twice with no justification. They even try to use censorship to keep everyone quiet.

So yeah, shit's bad. Good luck if you're coming over.

[Blackbird]

Sorry to hear that, Ruldra. Seems like things are bad all over -_-.

[Hagane]

Sounds like Brazil has the same self boycotting problems our country has.

[Ganelon]

I won't be coming in any case but Brazil won the bid and should take responsibility. Where did Brazilians think the money was going to come from? This public revolt should've happened well before the country put forward its bid. Lots of folks here in the US despise that local governments often help fund new sports stadiums (for national sports leagues) out of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars instead of on more socially beneficial projects. Folks here usually protest when the bids are under consideration though, not when everything has already been set.

As much as I sympathize with the country's issues, it's far too late to organize a boycott now. Brazil promised FIFA and the world that all infrastructure would be in place. At this stage, the goal should be to pick up the pace. The military should cover protection for the event if need be. From what I've read, lots of venues aren't completed until the last few months or even weeks so there's still some time yet. At the same time, it was a good idea to warn travelers so that they know what to expect from Brazil when they get there. Hopefully, everything will be smoothed out by the 2016 Olympics.

[ebarrett]

THIS WORLD CUP IS GONNA BE MESSI

[Skykid]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say by the time the World Cup comes around things will iron themselves out and it will be a wonderful event. Seriously, if South Africa can pull it off, Brazil will do whatever it takes.

[Ed Oscuro]

i.e. the authorities will put sugar in everybodys' gas tanks so they can't drive that day

[Phellan Wolf]

By the Way Madrid has such a big debt due to the workouts that have been made to be an Olympic city, that is going to take at least 200 years to pay it.
Hey it is just me but I am tired of all this shit. We should be asked before politicians waste our money in such things.

[ancestral-knowledge]

fuckin' hate soccer anyways.... bring back gory gladiator games!

[Vexorg]

If you think this one's going to be bad, just imagine what it's going to look like when they try to run one of these things in Qatar in 2022. I'm still wondering just how much they had to bribe FIFA officials to get them to agree to something that ridiculous...

And if I recall correctly, the costs of putting on the Athens Olympics are one of the factors that's contributed to the Greek debt crisis.

[Hagane]

If you think this one's going to be bad, just imagine what it's going to look like when they try to run one of these things in Qatar in 2022.

And what would the problem be? Money most likely not, considering how rich that country is.

[Vexorg]

Well, there's the fact that the whole country is smaller than Connecticut (third smallest state in the US) with a population of less than 2 million and average daily high temperatures of 105°F (41°C) during the Summer months. That, and Sharia law (although they claim they'll make provisions to allow for the serving of alcohol, which would otherwise be banned.

[O. Van Bruce]

Well, I suppose things can vary from one place to another. In the case of Barcelona 92 Olympics the investment completely paid off... not only contributed to put our city in the international map but also brought thousands of millions of euros on foreign investment into the city and the region over all this years. Afaik Barcelona was one of the greatests Olympics in history which has brought a great prestige boost to our city.

There was an after and before of the 92 Olympics in our city: before, Spain was Madrid only... nowadays, Barcelona is one of the 5 most searched cities on Google.

Of course, all the credit doesn't belong only to the Olympics but it was a huge initial step.

[neorichieb1971]

The answer to all these problems is stop fucking. Or having babies.

Answers to these problems :

1) Pollution A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
2) Traffic Congestion A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
3) Energy resources running out A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
4) Too many poor people A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
5) Jobs to be cut in the future A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out


Seriously, I had my one boy. Why do people have to have 5 or 6 off spring? All the problems in the world are because there are too many people in the world. Governments are weak not to bring this up. Kids in schools should have it drummed in their heads that having more than 1 baby in this world right now is pure madness. Especially in my country where most of them are on benefits.

As responsible people we should be winding down the population right about now. At least well educated people should be. If your educated and bringing people into the world are you considering your kids will 1) Be heavily polluted throughout their lives 2) Live half a life in traffic congestion 3) Have a constant burden of running out of energy 4) Living with 5 people to a room or 6) Spending the first years of their adult lives trying to find a job. Or as is the case in my country, homes costing 5 or 6 times a skilled persons salary.

I am sure your kids will have a great life. Especially when World cups are on paying those over inflated prices walking past half dead people on the way to the ritzy stadium.

[trap15]

Eugenics: you know it's right!

[Drachenherz]

The answer to all these problems is stop fucking. Or having babies.

Answers to these problems :

1) Pollution A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
2) Traffic Congestion A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
3) Energy resources running out A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
4) Too many poor people A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out
5) Jobs to be cut in the future A) Take the pill, use a condom, or pull out


Seriously, I had my one boy. Why do people have to have 5 or 6 off spring? All the problems in the world are because there are too many people in the world. Governments are weak not to bring this up. Kids in schools should have it drummed in their heads that having more than 1 baby in this world right now is pure madness. Especially in my country where most of them are on benefits.

As responsible people we should be winding down the population right about now. At least well educated people should be. If your educated and bringing people into the world are you considering your kids will 1) Be heavily polluted throughout their lives 2) Live half a life in traffic congestion 3) Have a constant burden of running out of energy 4) Living with 5 people to a room or 6) Spending the first years of their adult lives trying to find a job. Or as is the case in my country, homes costing 5 or 6 times a skilled persons salary.

I am sure your kids will have a great life. Especially when World cups are on paying those over inflated prices walking past half dead people on the way to the ritzy stadium.

Yes, yes. Surely, the perfect solution. Take a look at the peoples republic of china, the 1-child-policy certainly solved all those mentioned problems, fo sure...



Protip: Solutions to such problems are never that easy, as the problems themselves aren't just stemming from one single factor, but from a complicated mesh of different, interwoven factors.

Seriously, I'm not quite sure whether you're serious or just trolling.

[neorichieb1971]

I'm serious.

We live in world where the answer is to build more homes, build more stadiums, get more trains going, build more airports. Where does it end?

The world isn't getting bigger!!! Coal/oil/gas is running out. Where the hell do you think the next energy resource is coming from to support 6-10 billion people?

I am really surprised of your reply. I would have thought most people would think logically when it comes to the world problems. The fact is, the monetary system makes for much more poor people than rich. Out of those poor people many are dying. When the resources that people buy run out we will all die anyway, bar a few pockets of people that learned to live off the land. The rest of us will kill each other anyway.

Most people growing up today have so many creature comforts that something as simple as the fridge not working, or A/C not working, will put them in such an uncomfortable situation. Just like the Matrix states, we live at the peak of human civilization. We can't stay here for ever, the only way is down. Best to cut your population and lessen the turmoil down the road. To carry on "business as usual" is just madness.


edit : Not to mention that money is NEVER used as a tool to get the best out of life for everyone. What country out there has a policy where the money goes where people need it most? NONE! Some rich fag gets it whilst the people he looks at out of his high rise window are dying. He probably goes to church and thanks God for he has been blessed.

[CIT]

Today the protests in Brazil made it to the front page news here in Germany.

The Brazilians can correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't really seem to be about the World Cup specifically, but more generally that social issues (education, crime, public transport, curbing inflation) are not being dealt with commensurate with current economic growth. And the big reasons for that being corruption, bloated bureaucracy, and mismanagement of public funds (this is where the World Cup comes in).

As for Brazil's capability to host the World Cup, I actually have no doubt that it will be a success. Brazilians are famous for using some jeitinho at the last minute and make everything work.

[KAI]

Hoh, but I think the viveza criolla is worst than that.

Capitalism isn't working.

[Jonathan Ingram]

@neorichieb1971

In other words, the solution to many of the world`s woes directly related to the current socio-economic system lies not in the change of the said system, but rather in the introduction of openly social Darwinist policies aimed at a reduction(and perhaps segregation?) of the people on the losing end or their own self-restraining from breeding out of their own volition? That`s certainly one way to look at things.

we live at the peak of human civilization.

Someone let Fukuyama`s tripe about the end of history get to their heads.

Capitalism isn't working.

It isn`t, but evidently some people have an easier time imagining capitalism without a world than a world without capitalism.

[neorichieb1971]

Bringing the population down to levels sustained at 1900 are not likely to affect much except relieve the infrastructures designed in that time that are still apparent today.

We are trying to make old systems fit the demands of today. Its obviously not working. Nothing is working. When was the last time a politician did something spectacular? They can't. Every country has problems that no politician can fix. Should we be in a world where that can happen? What is the point of voting someone if they can't even match the strength of the predecessor?

The USA is the richest country, yet its model is designed with all the same flaws as Brazil. It just so happens to make more shit people want.

The reason Capitalism is broken is because the laws its based on have loop holes, which have been exploited. Nothing should cost a country more than it can afford. But it does. How is that possible?

[CIT]

Hoh, but I think the viveza criolla is worst than that.

Yeah, I was thinking more along these lines.

[Obiwanshinobi]

This is a statement. I have an opinion.

[RNGmaster]

THIS WORLD CUP IS GONNA BE MESSI

OH SNAP