Finally got around to Pink Sweets and Muchi Pork...

[casualcoder]

It seemed to me from reading on this forum for some time that both seem to be fan favorites, especially PS. Now, so far I find these games disappointing. That sometimes happens until I come around and understand the underlying systems better. But, I'm not sure about this one. My main problem is with the ship controls. I find them very slow and laggy. I find it inexcusable that a game derives difficulty from poor controls. I'm so used to the silky smooth controls of the ESP games, mushi, deathsmiles, hell, even the DDP games. But, as it sometimes seems to happen with Cave ports, I find both games have atleast a built in frame lag of 2-3 frames. It's subtle unless you are as sensitive to it as I am. Many of the bullet patterns arent even that tough but I find my ship move a hair after I move the stick, and stop just slightly after letting go. Terrible.

I find that Pink Sweets in particular has this problem more than MMP. I just don't understand why some ports have any lag at all. I mean, Guwange for example, I've tested over and over again against the mame version in shmupmame and the x360 version definitely has 1-3 frames of lag. I figured it had to do with poor emulation but why should that be the case in PS or MMP. Or, even Akai Katana has 1-2 frames of lag it seems.

Beyond this problem, I should say I find MMP pretty decent while Pink Sweets just seems strange in other ways, like the bullet shield and bomb/shot. What am I missing in these games? (never did like Ibara much either)

[Obscura]

These games have input lag because it was present on the PCB.

MMP is an OK game, and easily the best post-Ketsui Cave. It isn't perfect, and it's certainly nothing compared to YGW's Raizing trilogy, but it's not bad, either.

Pink Sweets.... lol. Why did Yagawa think it was a good idea to make using the game's primary mechanic shoot the rank through the roof?

[Nana]

For PS, what you're missing is the arrange mode. For Muchi Muchi Pork, what you're missing is a SOUL.

Although on a more serious note, I didn't notice the lag myself, so that didn't affect my enjoyment of it. I think you just have to really get into the insane cartoony atmosphere of it, I don't know if I would have enjoyed the game near as much if I wasn't laughing the whole time while playing it. The ridiculous scoring system seems to have a very polarized reaction, but I guess it comes down to whether or not you can fundamentally accept milking as the premise of the game. Either way, it's pretty satisfying just to mow down enemies with a fully charged lard shot and get tons of 10,000 point coins filling the screen.

PS Arrange is just insane.

[Special World]

I think both games are ones that really take time to sink in. The disc has become one of my top Cave games though, even with the crap port.

And yeah, PS Arrange is great.

[casualcoder]

I will definitely check out PS arrange, but to what Nana said... I find the plasticy toy-world along with the kid-friendly soundtrack mildly disturbing and, in general, something to overcome - just as one would the swarm of bullets. I'm all for Japanese weirdness but I never understood the obsession with cute-em-up sounds and visuals.

As for the PCB having lag... I don't know what to say to that. Poor programming from the get go? Other releases don't have that much lag.

[el chuddo]

The pcb's of these games most def do not have any lag whatsoever. They both have super sharp controls and to think they do not, must be from the perspective of playing with a joystick that has not been maintained, or some other factor apart from the game board. I would go as far as to say that no Cave pcb has any input lag at all. I am super picky about this and notice any input lag when present on the ports. I noticed this port's lag with hdmi and hd component cables.. and didn't enjoy these games at all when it was present. If you play the port(s) with a high quality VGA cable, there is almost no lag. I am sure your tv or monitor will play a role in this, so after getting a VGA cable, check that if there is still lag.. That said, this is one port I did not feel was laggy, and some of them are, even with a VGA (ex. SDOJ).
Give these 2 games some time and they will surely become top plays. I used to feel like I reached for this disc the least, and now I'd have to say it is one of the most fun (but not best looking translation) of all the Cave ports..but it must be understood first.. Plenty of info in the strategy section if you don't want to put the time in playing it to 'catch the hook'.

[Obscura]

I would go as far as to say that no Cave pcb has any input lag at all.

Uh, no. There's a reason why the "input lag" setting on Futari's Xbox 360 port defaults to 2 frames, and calls it equivalent to the PCB.

[el chuddo]

Don't have Futari 1.0 or 1.5, but I can't feel any lag at all on the Black pcb. If it's there, I sure as hell don't feel it. Now, the Raizing bat trilogy pcb's you spoke so highly of..Supremely great games, but Fuckin' right there is lag on those boards! I just don't feel it on any Cave pcbs. Have you played them, or is this based on a menu setting on 1 port?.. Honest question, but no need to answer. We don't need to derail this guy's thread anymore. I know I will not get through to someone "laughing out loud" at Yagawa for Pink Sweets.. and calling MMP "OK".

[Jack Burton]

I don't notice much lag with a rgb cable hooked up to viletim's rgb to jamma converter. Am I a poor player?

I really like Pork's arrange mode. So much gold!!!

[Jonst]

For PS, what you're missing is the arrange mode. For Muchi Muchi Pork, what you're missing is a SOUL.

Although on a more serious note, I didn't notice the lag myself, so that didn't affect my enjoyment of it. I think you just have to really get into the insane cartoony atmosphere of it, I don't know if I would have enjoyed the game near as much if I wasn't laughing the whole time while playing it. The ridiculous scoring system seems to have a very polarized reaction, but I guess it comes down to whether or not you can fundamentally accept milking as the premise of the game. Either way, it's pretty satisfying just to mow down enemies with a fully charged lard shot and get tons of 10,000 point coins filling the screen.

PS Arrange is just insane.

Couldn't agree more!

[casualcoder]

Chuddo: what Obscura said. If the mushi pcb has 2 frames of lag (I don't regard 1 frame as lag when there is always going to be a buffer between the input and the next frame drawn) then certainly other games would have something in this range on PCB. I'm not concerned about that form of lag, which is pretty much normal. It's the EXTRA lag that isn't just the buffer waiting for the next frame that I cant tolerate and there is certainly more extra lag in PS than any of the other titles mentioned.

I use a VGA cable on a lagless LCD computer monitor (went out of my way to test several monitors until I found one that is lagless) so that's why I'm sensitive to it. Back when I went through hdmi to my LCD tv, every game had SOME lag so it was hard to tell the difference between each game. Also, I use a stick and I find that it's much easier to notice lag on sticks than pads or keyboards because of the clickness providing sound stimulus relative to what you see on the screen.

So I'm confident there is extra lag in these ports. I cant speak of the PCB but I am aware some older games do have input lag on PCB so it wouldn't surprise me.

[KAI]

Ibara, PS, MMP, there's a pattern here. Sounds like you don't like games without focused shot in general.

[Special World]

Don't have Futari 1.0 or 1.5, but I can't feel any lag at all on the Black pcb. If it's there, I sure as hell don't feel it. Now, the Raizing bat trilogy pcb's you spoke so highly of..Supremely great games, but Fuckin' right there is lag on those boards! I just don't feel it on any Cave pcbs. Have you played them, or is this based on a menu setting on 1 port?.. Honest question, but no need to answer. We don't need to derail this guy's thread anymore. I know I will not get through to someone "laughing out loud" at Yagawa for Pink Sweets.. and calling MMP "OK".

He was actually laughing out loud at Muchi Pork, and it seems like it was a positive reaction rather than making fun of the game. It is a pretty humorous game, after all.

[cstle]

Ibara, PS, MMP, there's a pattern here. Sounds like you don't like games without focused shot in general.

or maybe Yagawa is a hack

[Cuilan]

or maybe Yagawa is a hack

I dunno about "hack", but with the poor sales performance of all the games he's been in charge of, I think it's fair to say that he shouldn't be involved in major game design roles (at least as far as main modes for arcade shooters go). He's a very talented programmer though.

[trap15]

Ibara, PS, MMP, there's a pattern here. Sounds like you don't like games without focused shot in general.

or maybe Yagawa is a hack

Or maybe you don't know what a good game is

[cstle]

or maybe Yagawa is a hack

I dunno about "hack", but with the poor sales performance of all the games he's been in charge of, I think it's fair to say that he shouldn't be involved in major game design roles (at least as far as main modes for arcade shooters go). He's a very talented programmer though.

He should've been relegated to Black Labels and console arranges. Allowing him to make multiple games was likely the worst business decision Cave made this generation.

Worst of all, we got nothing worthwhile out of these bad business decisions. Thanks for nothing, Yagawa.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Muchi Muchi Pork is good, but that was the only Yagawa game I liked.

And I'm pretty sure that wasn't purely Yagawa.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Pork was a mix between Yagawa and Ikeda. It pretty much does have a concentration shot too. It might be an odd one but it still gives you the ability to slow down by pressing a button which gives you the extra dodge control element. Yagawa is best as a team player if you want something with mass appeal. Well by that I mean his ideas, not his coding skill. If he is programming other people's ideas he's as good as anyone. Ikeda does the best job batting cleanup, he just doesn't always get around to it, for whatever reason. That is my 2 cents from what I've read and noticed.

[Cuilan]

He should've been relegated to Black Labels and console arranges. Allowing him to make multiple games was likely the worst business decision Cave made this generation.

Worst of all, we got nothing worthwhile out of these bad business decisions. Thanks for nothing, Yagawa.

I'd agree that his design philosophies are best suited for port-exclusive modes. But as for that being Cave's worst business decision, I'm sure that wouldn't be #1, but it would be on the high end of that list. Pink Sweets Arrange seems to be well-liked by everyone, so there's that at least.

[el chuddo]

Special World: Don't quote me if you can't read. Look what was said. Obscura "laughs out loud" at Pink Sweets because he can't handle a game that gives you unlimited bombs in return for raising the rank exponentially, so he takes it out on the great Shinobu Yagawa.. Calling him out by name after laughing. He clearly stated that MMP was "ok".. Nothing about the game being humorous. You quoted me and didn't even read the thread.
Coder: Good luck finding the ultimate lag free set up. Don't let this "disappointing" port of these 2 "poor control" games slow you down. I should have realized the whole thread is bait. I took it. Foolish of me to offer real experience when there is already experts willing to offer up tech talk.. Tech terms aside. There is no humanly noticable lag on any Cave pcb back to Donpachi.
cstle:WTF!.. Bite your toungue off! That post saying Yagawa is a hack is offensive. I understand that there are free opinions here, but talking like that about one of the greatest to grace this genre with his work?..really?..I'm backing Trap on this one..you cannot possibly know what a good game is if you are on an STG forum spouting this troll shite..

[Nana]

@el chuddo: Not to worry, I'm pretty sure Special World was referring to my post, not Obscura's. I didn't realize you were referring to his post either until you specifically mentioned it. It's all just a misunderstanding!

I'd hardly call Yagawa a hack; it seems like he knows exactly what he's doing. He knows what he likes, and does the best job of it even if people don't like it. He's a VISIONARY. All joking aside, I dunno what you mean in saying "we got nothing out of [letting Yagawa do shit]." You'd have to try pretty hard to hate everything about MMP/PS.

[casualcoder]

Coder: Good luck finding the ultimate lag free set up.

I'm pretty sure that's just a basic CRT. That has nothing to do with my statement pertaining to game-produced lag. Even a CRT wont fix lag that is present in the port or PCB.

Don't let this "disappointing" port of these 2 "poor control" games slow you down. I should have realized the whole thread is bait.

Bait? For what? No need for conspiracy theories, I'm just a guy having an honest discussion on game lag that is a relevant topic to a relevant game on a relevant forum

I took it. Foolish of me to offer real experience when there is already experts willing to offer up tech talk.. Tech terms aside. There is no humanly noticable lag on any Cave pcb back to Donpachi...

You can believe what you want but belief is not knowledge. And personal experience is not objective proof. Game lag is noticeable in some cases... Is it noticeable in this case? It is to me. I don't even see how that's a controversial statement.

[casualcoder]

Ibara, PS, MMP, there's a pattern here. Sounds like you don't like games without focused shot in general.

I'm not sure if that's the only common denominator. I would say its a bunch of things... The scoring system, messy visuals, but mostly the controls. I don't care if I die in a game. Dying is good. It's how you learn. But I can't excuse dying because I didn't see the bullet, or worse, I saw the bullet but I had to fight the controls and cross my fingers. Although I may be wrong, it seems to me that for this reason these games are more prone to winning by memorization/repeating patterns and I find that low on my list of reasons for playing STGs in general. The bottom line is that I feel like I should be to blame for hitting a bullet the first time I pick up a game. I don't get that feeling from these games.

[trap15]

Although I may be wrong, it seems to me that for this reason these games are more prone to winning by memorization/repeating patterns

You're very wrong there. YGW games in general have far more randomness than other STG, and that makes them pretty anti-memorization. You have to learn the tactic, yes, but you can't memorize a lot of the actual dodging.

[casualcoder]

Ive been putting some more time in with PS and MMP in the last week and I can now say that both games have grown on me. I can see myself playing MMP a lot and I can now see that PS is a very deep game. The controls issues still persist but they are made more bearable with the A+B ship speed control (which is not very intuitive but goes a long way towards strategizing).

I can now see why people complain so much about the rank system. I find avoiding powerups and medals while getting into necessary positions (either to avoid bullets or kill enemies early) is extremely difficult. it kind of disrupts the natural flow of the game and also it does heavily emphasize memorization routes and strategies.

I can forgive much of this and see myself having a lot of fun playing for quite some time, but my new challenge is figuring out just what exactly my goal should be with PS. There is such a lack of 1cc videos or superplays that it appears getting a 1cc is not a reasonable goal (first time I've faced that problem)... So, what do I go for to start? A 2cc? 3cc? Do I try to simply get as far as possible on 1 credit, or do I only go for score and likely die before the midway mark of the game for eternity? Not a lot of people talk about how they approach the game, which leads me to think that people mainly play it for fun and when they die... Oh well haha that's Yagawa for you... Perplexed..

[KAI]

You must find a balance between survival and scoring and never take the easy way out (infinite lives shit).

[chempop]

my new challenge is figuring out just what exactly my goal should be with PS

I'm sure it's been said, but Arrange mode is actually very doable, has the focussed shot, allows you to score as much as you want, and is entirely more fun than standard 1.00/1.01

[casualcoder]

my new challenge is figuring out just what exactly my goal should be with PS

I'm sure it's been said, but Arrange mode is actually very doable, has the focussed shot, allows you to score as much as you want, and is entirely more fun than standard 1.00/1.01

Yes, and I agree arrange does seem very fun to play. But it is nice to play a different style game with a different set of challenges (arrange mode is clearly more in the vein of other Ikeda games). That and I'm a sucker for playing games the way they were originally intended. It would make me feel wierd simply not playing PS in its original state if I'm going to play the game at all.

[casualcoder]

You must find a balance between survival and scoring and never take the easy way out (infinite lives shit).

The infinite lives thing truly seems retarded to me. I mean, it is essentially no different from credit feeding so why bother at all? That and I heard its not even present on the port so it's of no concern to me. But, to your point, I always try to balance my gameplay as you say, but in this case the path to that balance is not clear in the slightest. My instinct tells me to just try to play for survival and avoid the obvious ways of scoring. That way, I have a better chance of scoring in later stages anyways (as is usual in these games but maybe I'm mistaken given how out of step PS is with other STGs).