Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sumez]

Yeah, Super Cyborg's approach to zako enemies is mostly really good. It's the few obstacles that stop your pace completely along the stages that's the real issue to me. It's true they exist on every stage, but it doesn't get really egregious until the final two. And it's not just the bullet sponge, it's also the nature of their attacks and other hazards, which just merit way too much waiting around.

[copy-paster]

Contra: Shattered Soldier director/producer Nobuya Nakazato and Shinobi (PS2) director Toru Shimizu Cross-Talk Interview

I remember wanting this one to be translated, alongside G-Darius interviews on the patreon archive since it was out half a decade ago ( but I'm too poor for commissions ), but here we are now. Really good read although it's a bit short.

EDIT: This is my 1666th post now, on page 444.

[Lander]

Snagged myself an OkiBoard leverless controler last week, as part of my continuing effort to achieve ergonomic singularity and become one with the machine.
Lovely bit of kit - I never thought keyboard switches would rival Sanwa and Seimitsu, but they do. Might post some pics in the pickup thread if I end up customizing it with some manner of nerdy math symbol art insert.

(It also dawned on me that the FGC hoo-ha over the fairness of hitbox controllers is completely justified; it feels broken to three-frame plink a dash input by abusing SOCD, but oh so good.)

Anyhow, since a new controller paradigm means learning to walk all over again, I figured I'd timetable some classic run'n'gun to practice directional aiming, and try to overcome the mind-twisting Thumb = Up / Middle = Down config.
...Which somehow feels less wrong than the reverse, despite years of WASD intuition.

Gunstar Super Heroes was first on the docket, and for the most part holds up really nicely; lovely comprehensive movement and melee kit that gives you everything necessary to always be shooting, sliding, or divekicking.
Unfortunately, the frequent shmup / rail shooter interludes drag it down a bit, and Moon 4 / Black's Casino is asspain - the Mario Party board game gimmick is novel until you reach the Barracks and end up in an attrition loop of Go back 8 spaces, do not pass go, do not collect any space bucks because the last jump is a bitch. Still, fun times overall, if not as classic of a classic as the original.

Followed it up with some Contra: Hard Corps, and... How did I go so many years without knowing the JP release had a 3-hit life bar?
Total game changer. Perhaps too much, since I was able to see endings with all four characters over the course of an afternoon; would have been perfect if they'd exposed hit points in the options menu for a nice simple Easy / Medium / Hard setup, rather than scrapping them altogether for the Blockbuster-fearing western release.
Either way, glad I got to see the full range of excitement on offer this time around. A tour-de-force of action worthy of its rep, and a place on the top shelf alongside Alien Soldier.

Interesting to dig into the characters properly as well; I think Sheena is my favourite, augmenting Ray's staunch Rizer / Bean traditionalism with modern niceties like projectile arcs and homing lasers.
Browny is the same busted Lil' Bro hitbox character I remember, only even more broken once you figure out that the yo-yo is a chainsaw and the shield is trivial free damage from anywhere on the screen.

And Fang?

POWERUP A GET

(I'm fairly sure the damage values are consistent across characters, but damn if the projectile speed + size + spread on the minigun doesn't feel good in spite of it!)

Turns out there are some lovely QoL ROM hacks around for it too; proper hold-to-aim for 6-button pads, more intuitive menu controls, and even an SRAM save to pick up after a continue.
Indeed, the only remaining bit of polish would be to unbind the shot + switch combo so weapons can be changed without having to stop firing. I'm tempted to try doing it myself, since in theory all you need is one tactically-placed jump instruction, but getting a Mega Drive reverse engineering toolchain up and running is an intimidating prospect. I'm all ears if anyone has a recommendation for a standalone emulator with good debugger / decompiler.

[Steven]

This is why I'm always saying things like "I wish I could play (console game that doesn't support keyboard) with a keyboard because keyboard is the best controller". I've never used a leverless arcade controller, but it's basically the same thing as a keyboard I guess.

[Sumez]

Followed it up with some Contra: Hard Corps, and... How did I go so many years without knowing the JP release had a 3-hit life bar?
Total game changer. Perhaps too much, since I was able to see endings with all four characters over the course of an afternoon;

Definitely too much. Even with lives, you still spawn in-place on a death as per Contra conventions, so a life bar really just gives you three times as many lives, which is quite a lot.
I think just removing hit points altogether for the western releases was definitely a massive improvement. The game isn't nearly as hard as its reputation would assume.

[Despatche]

A long time ago, I heard that the Japanese release is actually a later build that somehow released first. No idea if that's actually true, but either way, the health bars are stupid. Contra Spirits would be nice with a health bar, not so much Hard Corps. But tell that to the clowns who worship that stupid "restoration" hack...

[copy-paster]

IMO US ver would make learning curve is much more rigid given 90% of the whole game are memoshit, also to learn the later stages you MUST fight the jungle boss over and over without the stage select cheat.

For me I'd keep the 1-hit kill system intact but still leave the stage select code.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

A long time ago, I heard that the Japanese release is actually a later build that somehow released first. No idea if that's actually true, but either way, the health bars are stupid. Contra Spirits would be nice with a health bar, not so much Hard Corps. But tell that to the clowns who worship that stupid "restoration" hack...

It would be the other way around, wouldn't it? The US version actually came out first.

I genuinely really wonder which version of the game is the "original vision", or if there even really is one. The Japanese version being... Japanese, and the only one to have the full script (unique dialogue for each character and some character combinations) makes me feel like it's the original, but the US version coming out first muddies the waters. Regardless of whatever the original intention is, I do think the Japanese version's lifebar is a little excessive - there are a few things in the game that justify it, but for the most part it defangs the game way too severely. The US version feels fine to me, and it's pretty much in line with the progression of the previous games (a little harder than Contra 3 normal, but still easier than Contra 3 hard).

[Bassa-Bassa]

Unlike with other systems, every Konami game for the MD was conceived for the Western markets first and foremost, for what it's worth.

[Randorama]

I 1-CC'ed Teddy Boy Blues and Act-Fancer Cybernetic Weapon while taking a break from shmups.

The first case was a 39-years grudge that could be summarised in this way:

1. Learn each stage's lowest risk path (x43: see below), which usually involves pixel-perfect positioning, high frequency tapping;
2. Pray that the random stuttering/frame-skipping, slowdown, inertial movement of the characters and sudden death attacks from enemies will not deviate you from the pixel-perfect path of victory;
3. Foam at the mouth a lot, because you just died due to either your movements not being pixel-perfect, or to the game clearly misreading your commands (possibly because of input lag...?);
4. Enjoy (ah ah).

I believe that one day I will prepare a long write-up as a way to overcome the near-traumatic effort (no, really, I have moments in which I was going psychotic and yelling stuff such as: "I didn't move one pixel too much to the right! Give me back this lifeeee, you [insert here way over-the-top insults]").

And maybe go into therapy, I guess.

Today, I closed this case, anyway.

The second case is a 36-years grudge that could be summarised in this way:

1. The little pervert from above had a morbid fascination with Data East, Jaleco and their kusoge games ("ohhh, poorly designed and drab-looking games! Yes!");
2. The pervert never bothered to 1-CC the game beyond a few credits back in the day, and a few "let's re-visit this title via emulation...ewww kusoge, maybe next time".
3. My adult self pretended that maybe most videogame memories from the little pervert were after all accurate and not subjective at all ("Hey, this title is easy and nice! We just didn't have enough time and money, XX years ago!").

This title didn't take me much to 1-CC, since all that suffices to 1-CC is to memorise stages and avoid getting hit (eh!). It's not that hard, really. I could write a long write-up for this title, too, but at some later stage.

If I ever travel back in time, I will strangle my child self the very moment the little bastard inserts a coin in the respective cabs, and makes contact with these games. I wonder how double homicide of the same individual but at different points in time works. I smell a time paradox lurking in the shadows, but I should first mop the floor from the copious amounts of drool and seething rage, before addressing the paradox.

...bleurgh.

[Lander]

Adjacent to my leverless controller waffle, does anybody know of any 2D action games with fighting game motion inputs and decently-sized movelists?
So far my list is Streets of Rage 3 / Remake (6-button star moves), Symphony of the Night (a curse upon its janky input buffer), Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub Zero (...), Guardian Heroes, and selected Tales games that include it via super-late-game equippables.

I'm hoping there's some indie or other that's done it, because Ryu & Ken Action Platformer seems like such a complete shoo-in of a concept, but I can't for the life of me find an example that actually fits.

This is why I'm always saying things like "I wish I could play (console game that doesn't support keyboard) with a keyboard because keyboard is the best controller". I've never used a leverless arcade controller, but it's basically the same thing as a keyboard I guess.

More or less; beyond the ergonomics (larger keys, no column skew, big wrist rest surface) the big difference is having a PCB to standardize button > direction mappings that would otherwise need to be overridden with AutoHotKey.

The Simultaneous Opposite Cardinal Direction rabbit hole goes pretty deep, but the Capcom-sanctioned baseline of Left + Right = Neutral X, Up + Down = Neutral Y is great compared to less-standardized PC implementations that exhibit axial priority or use the most recent input.
Being able to do R > L + R > R and get a dash input is so nice compared to always screwing up double-taps on a lever

So for PC players who already own a mechanical board with light switches, it's probably not as worthwhile beyond the form factor and console compatibility. But it's a good option for console players, or PC folk who use heavy typing-first switches and/or weird tripod-mounted ergo boards.

Definitely too much. Even with lives, you still spawn in-place on a death as per Contra conventions, so a life bar really just gives you three times as many lives, which is quite a lot.
I think just removing hit points altogether for the western releases was definitely a massive improvement. The game isn't nearly as hard as its reputation would assume.

It's not quite 1:1 with just having more 1UPs; you only lose your equipped weapon when you drop a life, so recovery situations only occur 1/3 as often - even easier!
Hence why I'd have liked to see both as options, since N^N permutations of HP and 1UPs would create a comfortable set of difficulty curves to progress through.

I think I agree on its rep now I've found my feet with the JP version and reached the point where arcadey tension is noticeably absent, but probably wouldn't if my frame of reference was still the US release that I've bounced off so many times.
It feels like a pairing that would ultimately manifest as Campaign Mode / Arcade Mode in a prospective rerelease; one with training wheels so you can understand the game, and one without where you can apply that knowledge to a fixed challenge.

[BIL]

Adjacent to my leverless controller waffle, does anybody know of any 2D action games with fighting game motion inputs and decently-sized movelists?
So far my list is Streets of Rage 3 / Remake (6-button star moves), Symphony of the Night (a curse upon its janky input buffer), Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub Zero (...), Guardian Heroes, and selected Tales games that include it via super-late-game equippables.

Christ I've been scarce lately. Moving a highly fortified nerdbunker across state lines. Good posting gents! Just a short mention of Capcom's Mutant Apocalypse (SFC); some nice QCFs in that one. Also has some classic FF/SFII meaty hitstun; it's the closest I've played to an SFII action/platformer. Great game! Its sequel, War of the Gems, didn't impress me as much - some rather flat stage design, early on, absent the relentless attack of Spartan/Trojan etc - but kitten persevered, and had very interesting takeaways. Still have to revisit that one.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm hoping there's some indie or other that's done it, because Ryu & Ken Action Platformer seems like such a complete shoo-in of a concept, but I can't for the life of me find an example that actually fits.

I can't actually think of too many that delve deeply into special inputs in a 2D platformer or beat 'em up. SoR3's example is limited specifically to its blitzes, and for many characters you always want to use whatever their highest star blitz currently is anyways. Gunstar Heroes has a half circle input to do the body slam attack, a slide kick, and up/down kicks depending on input when playing Fixed Shot, but you do a LOT of your work with your guns as expected.

The "Tales of" examples such as in Phantasia generally require equipping an accessory to give you the special combo inputs (costing you a useful accessory slot), and then the inputs don't change relative to the direction you face which might throw you off.

Kick Master for NES has relatively simple inputs, but it's got the complexity you're looking for in terms of moveset variety, with a varied movelist that evolves as you progress and a variety of grounded and aerial attack options.

A Google search reveals this thread with a few more suggestions:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/non-figh ... s.1271271/

[Steven]

Adjacent to my leverless controller waffle, does anybody know of any 2D action games with fighting game motion inputs and decently-sized movelists?

Try Cotton 2. I somewhat hate this game because a shooting game that uses fighting game inputs to control which shot you fire is a great way to make what would otherwise normally be an excellent game unnecessarily stupid, but try it anyway. Fortunately the Saturn version lets you use the XYZ buttons to do some stuff at least, somewhat salvaging the game. Boomerang, which is different game, completely fixed Cotton 2, but...

[BulletMagnet]

I vaguely recall a Guilty Gear game on the PSP where the characters used their standard moves and motions in a beat-em-up style setup, though I forget if that was the "main" mode or a side thing.

Cotton was mentioned here and Akashicverse is in the thread Roo linked, but if memory serves Ai Cho Aniki is another shmup to use them (and maybe the first?). Batsugun Special also bizarrely rewards you for putting in certain macros at certain times.

[Lander]

Christ I've been scarce lately. Moving a highly fortified nerdbunker across state lines. Good posting gents! Just a short mention of Capcom's Mutant Apocalypse (SFC); some nice QCFs in that one. Also has some classic FF/SFII meaty hitstun; it's the closest I've played to an SFII action/platformer. Great game! Its sequel, War of the Gems, didn't impress me as much - some rather flat stage design, early on, absent the relentless attack of Spartan/Trojan etc - but kitten persevered, and had very interesting takeaways. Still have to revisit that one.

On-point as always, Birru! I played through some training mode - minus assist button, of course - and SFII Action Game is bang-on, right down to thorough veneration of the knockdown state. Lengthy getup -and- iframe flash; any less could be considered underhanded.
Very nice how each character's stage and moveset feel distinctly tailored; from Gambit's sneaky zoning, to learning to time optic blasts with Cyclops, using your brain to trivialize Beast's otherwise-brawny slog, and getting into the pure technical beatdown as Psylocke.
(Though poor Wolverine got the proverbial shaft with his wall-climbing section nice DP and diveclaw though!)

Also, notably, it does something weird and interesting with its controls that I've never seen before. Thought it was odd leverless shenanigans at first, but the game's input buffer actually uses negative edge to detect double-taps.
Most systems require F > N > F > P from neutral for to register, but here you can do N > F > P from a forward walk to get a dash attack without having to stop first - signature Capcom tight play at work

Kick Master

Whoa. Rare is the game to evoke an ear to ear grin before I've even left the options menu!

There's something quite special about its tone - manages to capture that goofy self-reverent Foot... The most powerful weapon on earth. vibe of epic-scale mid-production martial arts cheese within the limited expressivity of a NES.

And bravo to that.

While the gameplay is a fair ways off from the mortifying gordian knot KoF pretzel motions I'm secretly hoping for, it's fantastic, so who cares.

Super precise, depth to find in both the short and long game, at least two ooh neats in every stage with another heartbreakingly missable one off the critical path, and a bevy of ...Tecmo Game moments. Love it!
Further proof positive that liberal application of toe-tapping divekick spam is top-tier in every game where it appears.

And it really is a Tecmo game; barking mad. Historically interesting too, since they'd later go on to produce the Ninja Gaiden reboots, which feature a comparable bucketload of mobility and iframe abuse.
The hidden spell that exchanges 1MP for a few seconds of APU noise is a fun quirk too. I'm torn between hoping it has some secret application, and hoping that it's just a spiteful mystery left there by the designers to torment inquisitive players

All that said, within context of swapping your safe aerial normal for a wild sideways lunge later on...

The death pits in the tower stage are a serious paddlin'

Though nothing that can't be accustomed to with a bit of grit and memo, I imagine. Tecmo Game

The "Tales of" examples such as in Phantasia generally require equipping an accessory to give you the special combo inputs (costing you a useful accessory slot), and then the inputs don't change relative to the direction you face which might throw you off.

That is horrifying. Even if it does make a strange kind of sense in context of a party-on-left baddies-on-right JRPG setup, and fitegame endemic P2-side input fumble.

I ended up going down the Tales of Eternia rabbit hole in the middle of composing this post - cheated a Manual, Combo Command, and infinite TP into PPSSPP (bugger it, I've done it legit twice. TP is dull as dishwater anyway.)
The inputs do flip in this one, thank goodness. And it turns out to be a good spend of a slot, since you can break the normal 6-arte limit provided that you memorize the commands.
Takes a while for it to open up enough for proper combo chaining - about halfway if memory serves, with movesets 16-20 entries large come the end - but it feels fairly good, and is certainly testing my input precision now I have two QCFs, a DP, and a forward-back-forward to juggle. Would have been a nightmare to manage on the PSP's mushy D-Pad!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

That is horrifying. Even if it does make a strange kind of sense in context of a party-on-left baddies-on-right JRPG setup, and fitegame endemic P2-side input fumble.

I could be wrong about it though; I'm mostly familiar with the SNES and PS1 versions of Phantasia, and I don't usually use that item as I really don't like giving up an accessory slot for it. ^^; I seem to recall Sabin's Blitzes work the same way in FF6 too; if you're in a pincer attack or back attack and he's on the opposite side, you have to remember input directions don't change even if he's facing right!

Whoa. Rare is the game to evoke an ear to ear grin before I've even left the options menu!

Oh, had you not played it before? If not I'm glad you gave it a whirl, it's a genuinely fun game with a very unique aesthetic and vibe. I love it, it makes me think of playing Shuh from Hokuto no Ken in a platformer (why didn't we get him as a playable in the arcade fighting game? ;w;). The only bit of weirdness is you have to occasionally dodge the skull powerups that simply hurt you, haha. Otherwise it's solid design.

Tecmo's made several other really cool games I strongly recommend. If you're into "Tales of" check out Radia Senki, an NES RPG that features real-time combat with a total of 5 party members. They even had a 30 second anime commercial for it! You control one that has a basic Zelda style stab, but your NPC members are actually quite decent, can be individually ordered to attack specific targets, move to position, can cast spells (cooldown timer is tied to health, more max health means less cooldown). The music's also fantastic. An early precursor to "Tales of" or "Secret of Mana" style action RPGs, and it's very well executed, even if it's not overly complex. It's one of those games where if the protagonist dies, it's gameover, so throwing the main character into the frontline can be a bit of a strategic risk vs reward thing.

I also love Raiga: Strato Fighter. It's a game that allows you to shoot left and right freely but I actually prefer how it does it over Deathsmiles, with discrete Shoot and Switch Direction buttons. I'd love to see more people playing it as I've always wanted to try and squeeze more score out of it but since the JP world records aren't on Youtube or Nicovideo I'm at a bit of a loss. ;w; The music's great, you get these neat little mech helpers, and you're INSANELY strong at max shot power. There's a lot of extends, clearing it isn't too hard, but it's a game with a brutal power-down on death if you do take a hit, so if you die at a bad section expect to chaindeath hard.

[Steven]

I still can't believe that Namco permanently fixed Tales battle systems by implementing CC in the Destiny remake in 2006 only to use it once more in Graces and then get rid of it except for some now-discontinued phone game. Yes, it breaks the whole attack -> tokugi -> ougi -> hi-ougi thing, but it's still an improvement.

Speaking of the Destiny remake, having CC in that game would make it perfect for having the Combo Command and naturally it doesn't have it. Graces did it better, but... Graces lol

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I agree, Chain Capacity was one of their best innovations in a battle system, but it only saw use in a few games. Destiny R is still honestly one of the best Tales of games in terms of combat system, it's really well designed.

[Steven]

It's also a legitimately difficult game on the higher difficulties without feeling cheap or unfair, too.

Mostly.

Spoiler

lol Lion resisting everything

Still the best game in the entire series by far, mostly because of that battle system. Japanese PS2 version of Tales of the Abyss takes a very comfortable second place. I need to go find my PS3 memory card adaptor thingy and rescue my save and put it on my PS2 so I can finish Lion's side eventually.

[velo]

Adjacent to my leverless controller waffle, does anybody know of any 2D action games with fighting game motion inputs and decently-sized movelists?

Best I can do is Top Hunter: Roddy and Cathy

Code: Select all

Special Moves:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plasma Buster		qcf + A
Splash Aura		Tap A rapidly
Atomic Bomb		during jump, d + A
Sliding			qcf + B
Rolling Upper		f,d,df + A
Power Chaser		u,uf,f + A
Turn Attack		Charge df,f + A
Rolling Attack		Charge d,u + B

Super Special Moves:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Power Blaster		u,uf,f + A (1 Power-Up, 0 lives left and life in red)
***Grand Cannon		qcf + A (3 Power-Ups, 0 lives left and l

[Sima Tuna]

Adjacent to my leverless controller waffle, does anybody know of any 2D action games with fighting game motion inputs and decently-sized movelists?
So far my list is Streets of Rage 3 / Remake (6-button star moves), Symphony of the Night (a curse upon its janky input buffer), Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub Zero (...), Guardian Heroes, and selected Tales games that include it via super-late-game equippables.

I'm hoping there's some indie or other that's done it, because Ryu & Ken Action Platformer seems like such a complete shoo-in of a concept, but I can't for the life of me find an example that actually fits.

A lot of the latter-era Capcom beat em ups flirt with this idea. Games like AvP, Warriors of Fate, Knights of the Round, Battle Circuit, Cars 'n' Dinos etc. The commands are usually simplified compared to a fighting game (because you have to position along a 3d plane/belt-note that Tekken does the same thing for the same reason), but you have command inputs all the same. Knights of the Round has an entire block mechanic linked to command input, as well as a backjump with lancelot/Arthur and a roll for Percival. Those mechanics are central to understanding Knights of the Round, and part of what makes the Snes port superior to arcade imo is they give you a dedicated button for blocking.

Warriors of Fate has a bunch of different command inputs for each character. If you just try to walk around and punch shit, the game is a lot more brutal. You have to learn how to exploit your special attacks. I've noticed, in a lot of 1cc footage, the player will immediately jump off the horse whenever they start with one. The player's mobility and moveset is much better when grounded.

I haven't played enough of Battle Circuit to comment on that one, but I do remember seeing full fighting game move input tutorials in that title.

As I said before, with a game where you have to walk up and down a lot, the inputs are naturally going to be less extreme than qcf->hcb+PPP like you might get for a 2d fighting game. Hell, the most well-known "difficult" Tekken input is a frame-perfect shoryu. In a game with a lot of sidestepping and constant korean backstep, it only makes sense for inputs to be slightly abbreviated on the moves themselves.

[BIL]

I could be wildly wrong, but isn't Kick Master a KID/Kindle Imagine Dev game (feat. lovable scamp Shinobu Yagawa)? I've barely played it, not by choice, just my longstanding FC-only compulsions. The falling powerup showers instantly made me think Recca. The sparkingly vivid cutscene art is straight outta my black sheep favourite MAX WARRIOR, too (rad game, seriously - you will believe Super Shinobi doublejump bombs can work in isometric, albeit with some very clever player assists! ).

Top of my list with Ninja Gaiden III OTOKO LABEL, whenever I get around to NES stuff, either way.

[Udderdude]

This NES-alike sidescroller Castlevania-ish game Lords of Exile just came out on Steam. I don't have any opinion on it but some on here might want to check it out : https://store.steampowered.com/app/1329 ... _of_Exile/

[Sima Tuna]

I saw that on the "coming soon" section of the eshop and it looked bad. Like a crappy knock-off of Curse of the Moon.

[Sumez]

Kickmaster is, indeed, a Yagawa game

[BulletMagnet]

Some folks might be happy to hear this.

[Sima Tuna]

Cool game, but I'm curious what quality the emulation job will be.

[Licorice]

What are everyone's thoughts on Metal Slug (1, X, 3) ports? Are any of them worth playing for any reason over emulated NeoGeo originals?

Going back to Metal Slug X as emulated using FBNeo, I am quite startled by all the slowdown, to the point I am not quite sure it was always like this, although youtube videos suggest that it indeed was.

[Steven]

As far as I know, there are almost no Metal Slug ports at all. Most of the rereleases are running on emulation of various quality, although I imagine the Saturn version of the first game is probably running natively.

Get them on Arcade Archives, though; the ACA releases are almost certainly even better than playing them on a real Neo Geo due to the various options and the fact that the AES controller is a piece of shit (Neo Geo CD controller is amazing, though, and fortunately works on AES), and the emulation on ACA in general is essentially the same as having the real hardware. Having played at least some of each one on a real AES, the slowdown was always there, and it is properly emulated on ACA, although whether or not you consider that a good thing is up to you.

I have heard the Metal Slug Anthology has really appalling input lag, and while that is the only thing that I know about that specific collection, that alone is enough to know to avoid it entirely.