Flat Screen for shmups
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brickiemart
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:24 pm
Flat Screen for shmups
Hi all, I just registered. I have a question perfect for the forum. I want to get a new flat screen for myself. In a perfect world I would love one that has the ability to turn 90 degrees for some vertical/tate shooters. I don't know how feasible that is though. My questions are, what is a good television to get for gaming, specifically retro gaming (~ 35" to 50"), and are there tools/equipment available that let you turn your screen 90 degrees conveniently? Thanks for any help!
Re: Flat Screen for shmups
I recently had a similar question as you do, except I started out from the standpoint of wondering if there was a good cathode ray tube (bulky CRT) television that would also be good for HD systems (xbox 360 and so on). Dumb luck partly decided what I ended up getting, but the best choice I made was to let the old televisions do the job of old televisions, and keep LCDs for new stuff.
So, to break it down simply as possible:
There is no perfect LCD flatscreen for retrogaming - and depending on what kind of features you want, there may not even be an acceptable LCD flatscreen for older console games.
On the other hand, by the time you get to even a reasonable close viewing size (27"), flat CRT televisions can get up to 100 pounds, and they only get heavier when you get bigger. A 50" CRT TV is basically a monstrous rarity that is almost the size of a china cabinet (probably rear view technology...) that can have tons of stuff parked on top, whereas a 42" or larger LCD can be easily handled by any person. (Some people still like plasma sets, too.)
There are some ways to handle some of the quirks of LCDs for retro gaming: You can buy cheap "linedoublers" for making fake scanlines, or upscaling processors (most likely needed if you want to display on a widescreen format display), and you can look at all the tests possible to find the LCD (or other HD) display with the least lag possible. They're out there, but rare. Most sets just compromise on image quality, having a "game mode" that has less refined color than the normal viewing mode for TV or movies, but which is much quicker to get the image out for viewing. Of course, there are many makers of swivel stands or wall mounts that allow the screen to be rotated, but do not assume that the stretched image will be helpful at all for gaming.
It is possible that there exists some modern display technology that is unambiguously better than both LCDs and CRTs, and could take the job of either, but it surely isn't being manufactured for consumer or even professional displays. One of the fundamental truths of CRTs vs. LCDs is that CRTs allowed system hardware manufacturers great flexibility to use custom resolutions and timing, whereas LCDs benefit from regularity and systems with known attributes (fixed resolution and timing). So trying to make either type of system do the job of the other is likely going to be unsatisfying, or even horrifying, depending on how close to the original (or a playable) experience you want to get.
Of course, if you use emulation or have good computer graphics assistance (i.e. image rotation and scaling), then a good LCD may be acceptable. It will likely be much laggier than playing the original system on a monitor, however; there is lag introduced not only by the LCD monitor technology, but also by a graphics card scaling or rotating a system, and of course emulators running on an operating system will be less responsive than an original system. Overall, it might not add up to much, but in some cases it might.
There are many other details that are important to know, so I suggest reading the following as well.
You can split the differences between displays at least a couple of ways:
- Original arcade system and older (pre-HD) console use vs. emulation and modern systems
- CRT vs. LCD
To tackle the second couple, a cathode-ray tube monitor or television will (with some exceptions!) give you the fastest response, usually a reasonably good picture, but at the cost of being heavy, power-hungry, and not as suited for many other tasks (there are HDTVs that are CRT but they reportedly usually introduce some lag when playing non-HD material; I have my doubts about how severe a problem this would be, but it is still a possible issue). Most CRTs have the correct 4:3 aspect ratio (width:height) that almost all classic shooters (arcade, console, or computer) use; only recently have some Xbox 360 ports really started being released with widescreen support (and I would note that on a suitably large LCD HDTV, you won't need to rotate it).
LCDs can be a bad choice because they typically have some input lag (a period of delay between the system sending the image to the display, and the image appearing on the display) which can be severe depending on the unit. However, some are out there that have very low lag (and this should only get better as time goes on and the sources of lag are reduced). Another quibble with many LCDs is that many people prefer viewing with the scanlines - darker lines between pixels - of CRTs; on the other hand, LCDs have continuous blocks of color and generally no scanlines (to introduce scanlines on an LCD requires some extra hardware which is not exactly cheap). However, LCDs are very flexible for modern uses, and depending on the unit can be quite fast and have very good colors, uniformity, power usage, and finally weight.
Rotatable LCD screens are all over the map in turns of quality; I should add that you can make almost every LCD display rotate by buying a rotating stand (although with some units it is difficult or impractical). If you want to rotate an LCD, you should keep in mind that there are different types of LCD technology, and some look better than others while rotated. A modern S-IPS (or similar) panel should look good from most viewing angles (straight on, or from the side), but many TFT (and passive matrix) displays are meant to be viewed from an angle with the eyes about level with the top of the display (good tip for setting up your monitor for everyday use, BTW), and look absolutely terrible head-on from the middle, or from other displays. At different angles the image might even look to have its colors reversed!
Oh, there is one other quirk about LCDs versus CRTs: CRTs generally have a good ability to display different resolutions and framerates (but not all; some sources are trouble for all but specialized monitors, like Raiden II and Raiden DX PCBs) because there are no fixed "pixels," per se, just regions of phosphors that can be scanned by the electron guns; "pixels" viewed onscreen can be square or rectangular as a result. I believe relatively few LCDs have good ability to scale or letterbox / pillarbox different types of content, and the features demand much more work on the part of the manufacturer. As a result, at least early models of the nice PX2611W have good image scaling and "real size" viewing options, but the refresh rate remains locked in around 60Hz, and many people trying to use their Xbox 360s at 1920x1080 on the display (which is natively 1920x1200) complain the image is unacceptably strange on theirs.
One final thought: Find out what kind of video and audio connections you might require for ANY display you will buy. Many displays (of either CRT or LCD type) simply do not have good enough connections for serious use. There are many nice website primers and funny videos out there comparing the types of connections, but feel free to ask questions if you want to find out more. There are lots of people here more knowledgeable about these issues than I am.
So, to break it down simply as possible:
There is no perfect LCD flatscreen for retrogaming - and depending on what kind of features you want, there may not even be an acceptable LCD flatscreen for older console games.
On the other hand, by the time you get to even a reasonable close viewing size (27"), flat CRT televisions can get up to 100 pounds, and they only get heavier when you get bigger. A 50" CRT TV is basically a monstrous rarity that is almost the size of a china cabinet (probably rear view technology...) that can have tons of stuff parked on top, whereas a 42" or larger LCD can be easily handled by any person. (Some people still like plasma sets, too.)
There are some ways to handle some of the quirks of LCDs for retro gaming: You can buy cheap "linedoublers" for making fake scanlines, or upscaling processors (most likely needed if you want to display on a widescreen format display), and you can look at all the tests possible to find the LCD (or other HD) display with the least lag possible. They're out there, but rare. Most sets just compromise on image quality, having a "game mode" that has less refined color than the normal viewing mode for TV or movies, but which is much quicker to get the image out for viewing. Of course, there are many makers of swivel stands or wall mounts that allow the screen to be rotated, but do not assume that the stretched image will be helpful at all for gaming.
It is possible that there exists some modern display technology that is unambiguously better than both LCDs and CRTs, and could take the job of either, but it surely isn't being manufactured for consumer or even professional displays. One of the fundamental truths of CRTs vs. LCDs is that CRTs allowed system hardware manufacturers great flexibility to use custom resolutions and timing, whereas LCDs benefit from regularity and systems with known attributes (fixed resolution and timing). So trying to make either type of system do the job of the other is likely going to be unsatisfying, or even horrifying, depending on how close to the original (or a playable) experience you want to get.
Of course, if you use emulation or have good computer graphics assistance (i.e. image rotation and scaling), then a good LCD may be acceptable. It will likely be much laggier than playing the original system on a monitor, however; there is lag introduced not only by the LCD monitor technology, but also by a graphics card scaling or rotating a system, and of course emulators running on an operating system will be less responsive than an original system. Overall, it might not add up to much, but in some cases it might.
There are many other details that are important to know, so I suggest reading the following as well.
You can split the differences between displays at least a couple of ways:
- Original arcade system and older (pre-HD) console use vs. emulation and modern systems
- CRT vs. LCD
To tackle the second couple, a cathode-ray tube monitor or television will (with some exceptions!) give you the fastest response, usually a reasonably good picture, but at the cost of being heavy, power-hungry, and not as suited for many other tasks (there are HDTVs that are CRT but they reportedly usually introduce some lag when playing non-HD material; I have my doubts about how severe a problem this would be, but it is still a possible issue). Most CRTs have the correct 4:3 aspect ratio (width:height) that almost all classic shooters (arcade, console, or computer) use; only recently have some Xbox 360 ports really started being released with widescreen support (and I would note that on a suitably large LCD HDTV, you won't need to rotate it).
LCDs can be a bad choice because they typically have some input lag (a period of delay between the system sending the image to the display, and the image appearing on the display) which can be severe depending on the unit. However, some are out there that have very low lag (and this should only get better as time goes on and the sources of lag are reduced). Another quibble with many LCDs is that many people prefer viewing with the scanlines - darker lines between pixels - of CRTs; on the other hand, LCDs have continuous blocks of color and generally no scanlines (to introduce scanlines on an LCD requires some extra hardware which is not exactly cheap). However, LCDs are very flexible for modern uses, and depending on the unit can be quite fast and have very good colors, uniformity, power usage, and finally weight.
Rotatable LCD screens are all over the map in turns of quality; I should add that you can make almost every LCD display rotate by buying a rotating stand (although with some units it is difficult or impractical). If you want to rotate an LCD, you should keep in mind that there are different types of LCD technology, and some look better than others while rotated. A modern S-IPS (or similar) panel should look good from most viewing angles (straight on, or from the side), but many TFT (and passive matrix) displays are meant to be viewed from an angle with the eyes about level with the top of the display (good tip for setting up your monitor for everyday use, BTW), and look absolutely terrible head-on from the middle, or from other displays. At different angles the image might even look to have its colors reversed!
Oh, there is one other quirk about LCDs versus CRTs: CRTs generally have a good ability to display different resolutions and framerates (but not all; some sources are trouble for all but specialized monitors, like Raiden II and Raiden DX PCBs) because there are no fixed "pixels," per se, just regions of phosphors that can be scanned by the electron guns; "pixels" viewed onscreen can be square or rectangular as a result. I believe relatively few LCDs have good ability to scale or letterbox / pillarbox different types of content, and the features demand much more work on the part of the manufacturer. As a result, at least early models of the nice PX2611W have good image scaling and "real size" viewing options, but the refresh rate remains locked in around 60Hz, and many people trying to use their Xbox 360s at 1920x1080 on the display (which is natively 1920x1200) complain the image is unacceptably strange on theirs.
One final thought: Find out what kind of video and audio connections you might require for ANY display you will buy. Many displays (of either CRT or LCD type) simply do not have good enough connections for serious use. There are many nice website primers and funny videos out there comparing the types of connections, but feel free to ask questions if you want to find out more. There are lots of people here more knowledgeable about these issues than I am.
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brickiemart
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:24 pm
Re: Flat Screen for shmups
Great reply, thanks. CRT is out for me. I don't care too much about replicating the look of 80's - 90's gaming, but instead I would like to have some kind of monitor that can keep up with a game running via emulation. I have a lot of old consoles, but I like having everything centralized (hence emulation). Essentially, I plan on only having an Xbox 360 and my PC hooked up to the flat screen and I'll use those two devices for everything from videos, to games, internet, Netflix etc. The vertical rotation I'll implement for some Cave PS2 & 360 shooters, but ultimately I dream of playing a large Mame library of 2d vertical shooters with a rotated flat screen.
Re: Flat Screen for shmups
If you're located in the US, I purchased the telehook:
atdec TH-30-50-RW from newegg. I use a 42" LCD screen, when mounted allows very easy rotation. It's pricey ($150), but well worth it if you can afford it.
I also bought a 4-input selector for my various retro consoles with composite inputs/s-video. I bought mine from radio shack for $20 a long while back. Not sure what something like that is nowadays. Each one of them I separately purchased S-Video cables where they were available. For arcade pcbs, I have a supergun. I'm currently looking into outputting composite to VGA input on my lcd to see if that makes any difference in resolution.
atdec TH-30-50-RW from newegg. I use a 42" LCD screen, when mounted allows very easy rotation. It's pricey ($150), but well worth it if you can afford it.
I also bought a 4-input selector for my various retro consoles with composite inputs/s-video. I bought mine from radio shack for $20 a long while back. Not sure what something like that is nowadays. Each one of them I separately purchased S-Video cables where they were available. For arcade pcbs, I have a supergun. I'm currently looking into outputting composite to VGA input on my lcd to see if that makes any difference in resolution.
Re: Flat Screen for shmups
I would guess only three of the considerations I listed above being relevant:
- Does the panel work with some existing rotation stand?
- Color and brightness continuity from different viewing angles (technology-dependent; Plasma should be OK, S-IPS and many newer panels should be passable, although likely still not perfect - demo this in person if you can) if you rotate the image
- Low input lag (not the same thing as response time / GTG response time
- Does the panel work with some existing rotation stand?
- Color and brightness continuity from different viewing angles (technology-dependent; Plasma should be OK, S-IPS and many newer panels should be passable, although likely still not perfect - demo this in person if you can) if you rotate the image
- Low input lag (not the same thing as response time / GTG response time
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brickiemart
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:24 pm
Re: Flat Screen for shmups
Thanks zendor118, that set up look like a dream. And thanks again Ed Oscuro, I will most likely narrow down on a purchase in a month or so. Great advice!