IOS Is a terrible shmup platform. (Small Rant)

[Tokyo-J]

I bought a Ipad when Daifukkatsu came out as it was the only way for me to play the game at the time. I have continued to buy all of Cave's ports for the IOS platform and have come to the conclusion I was forcing myself to like them and play them. They are just not fun. The controls are counter intuitive and just not natural.

Playing on a Arcade cabinet or with a stick is the way these games were meant to be played. With the future of Cave shmups possibly being on all touch based portable media devices I feel like they are abandoning their true hardcore fans in favor of mainstream sales. We have seen where this left companies such as SNK when they try to do 3d it is a miserable failure. They are best left sticking to 2d animation and making shmups for the die hards who helped build the company to begin with. We are the reason why Japanese 360's get sold as obviously the system has flopped big time in Japan.

I know I am basing most of my experience on Cave shmups on IOS. But the other shmups released pale in comparison. Strikers 1945 port is a crappy joke.

[IseeThings]

Of course, but the way of the world is adapt or die.

I've said touchscreens and motion controls are crappy from day 1, but what happens when you can't buy anything else?

There is no point in pleasing your core audience only if you're going to go bankrupt in the process.

People are praising IOS / Android Pacman emulations where you have to tilt the thing to move as revolutionary, yet they're damn near unplayable, likewise virtual buttons unless you like hovering your fingers above imaginary buttons rather than resting them.

SNK are a primary example of a company who failed to adapt, they could put out lots of lo-res 2d NeoGeo fighters, but made a few attempts to do 3D, failed, then gave up. Eventually they were left trying to flog products nobody wanted because they were seen as so ancient. Capcom on the other hand managed to develop their 3D business at the same time and then successfully brought their IP to the 3D world (see the recent Street Fighters, which play like classic 2D games but in very flashy 3D)

Cave are already showing signs of going the SNK route and so need to find a balance which is going to work for them on the modern systems with modern controls, which could mean abandoning shooters completely at least until the rest of the world realises these control schemes suck.

[psoslayer]

Yes playing on arcade cab is better than iPhone but still all cave ports are valid mobile game expierences. They're more fun than any other iPhone games, which is enough for me to buy them. I don't compare them with 360 ports or PCB, that's just not what they're made for.

[Giest118]

If I had to bitch about one thing with IOS shmups, it's that the touchscreen is godawful for games like DDPDOJ, where you need to rapidly switch between laser, shot, and not shooting in order to keep your chain going.

The movement control, however, is fantastic, though it tends to make games far easier (what with giving yourself INFINITE SPEED when you want it)... which could be a good thing or not depending on who you are.

[Bananamatic]

Playing on a Arcade cabinet or with a stick

show me a stickless cabinet

[MR_Soren]

I enjoy the Cave iOS ports, but I did not buy an iOS device just to play them. Instead, I had the iOS device, and the Cave ports are fun to play with when I have some time to kill.

I know they are broken in a lot of ways compared to an arcade or console setup, but I believe the games are worth well more than the price I pay for them.


It's kind of like how video pinball is inferior to real pinball, but I'll still play video pinball because I cannot afford to own a copy of every pinball machine.

[Obscura]

Playing on a Arcade cabinet or with a stick

show me a stickless cabinet

Play Crusin' USA. Stickless arcade cabinet!

Or Area 51 (or any other light-gun game).

Weren't there also some games from the early days of arcade games that used a trackball instead of a stick?

[Bananamatic]

Play Crusin' USA. Stickless arcade cabinet!

Or Area 51 (or any other light-gun game).

Weren't there also some games from the early days of arcade games that used a trackball instead of a stick?

Where was that Strikers or whatever cabinet with a flight joystick?

[Gus]

Playing on a Arcade cabinet or with a stick is the way these games were meant to be played. With the future of Cave shmups possibly being on all touch based portable media devices I feel like they are abandoning their true hardcore fans in favor of mainstream sales. We have seen where this left companies such as SNK when they try to do 3d it is a miserable failure. They are best left sticking to 2d animation and making shmups for the die hards who helped build the company to begin with. We are the reason why Japanese 360's get sold as obviously the system has flopped big time in Japan.

Scores please.

[Deca]

I bought a Ipad when Daifukkatsu came out as it was the only way for me to play the game at the time.

It probably cost close to what the 360 would have.

[Despatche]

obvious troll post begets obvious troll post

Playing on a Arcade cabinet or with a stick is the way these games were meant to be played.

playing with a keyboard is the best way to play these games > playing on an arcade cabinet or with a stick is the way these games were meant to be played

playing in an actual arcade with the real cab and everything > whatever other solution you come up with

With the future of Cave shmups possibly being on all touch based portable media devices I feel like they are abandoning their true hardcore fans in favor of mainstream sales.

you will never be part of their true hardcore fans, who look down and laugh at you from their thrones of bones

We have seen where this left companies such as SNK when they try to do 3d it is a miserable failure.

they had a bit of fun with mi

you can't win because you're expecting to lose lose you're expecting to lose

[Marc]

Playing on a Arcade cabinet or with a stick is the way these games were meant to be played. With the future of Cave shmups possibly being on all touch based portable media devices I feel like they are abandoning their true hardcore fans in favor of mainstream sales. We have seen where this left companies such as SNK when they try to do 3d it is a miserable failure. They are best left sticking to 2d animation and making shmups for the die hards who helped build the company to begin with. We are the reason why Japanese 360's get sold as obviously the system has flopped big time in Japan.

Scores please.

Because his point of view is invalid if he can't score in the upper 5% I presume? Grow up.

Anyhow, pretty much as stated above, I don't buy these ports thinking I'm going to get a perfect conversion, I see them more as original/arrange modes that run on a device that I carry with me at all times - in that respect they're fucking fantastic games that cost me less than an issue of Retro Gamer. Can't fault them personally, and I suspect those who can simply expect too much and should probably buy a Vita. Oh, wait...

[Jeneki]

you will never be part of their true hardcore fans, who look down and laugh at you from their thrones of bones

"Crom is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, 'What is the riddle of Dimahoo scoring?' If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me."

[Gus]

Because his point of view is invalid if he can't score in the upper 5% I presume? Grow up.

I was going to follow up with a detailed explanation of how ridiculous it is for a fucking casual to tell people how these games are meant to be played and bitch about Cave "abandoning" him when they have a huge library he's barely played but fuck it. Despatche won this topic.

[Chacranajxy]

Yeah, pretty much. If the future of shmups, as it were, is resigned to iOS or portables... well, whatever. But I won't play them anymore, because I get absolutely no enjoyment out of playing these games on such platforms.

[Marc]

I didn't see him telling anyone how the games should be played, I saw him expressing a personal opinion in a slightly ranting fashion, which was pointed out in the thread title.

Honestly, you really need to get off this high horse of yours. Your endearing yourself to nobody, and you don't seem to understand that ten years from now, when Cave are gone and gaming as we know it barely exists, nobody will give a flying fuck that you once held the top score in the western hemisphere on Galuda 2. It just isn't that important, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to act like a fucking ass to anyone that doesn't meet your exacting criteria on what does or doesn't constitute a 'hardcore' shooter fan - probably about 70% of this board by the way. Don't you ever read what you type and feel faintly embarrassed by it?

[NzzpNzzp]

We are the reason why Japanese 360's get sold as obviously the system has flopped big time in Japan.

I think you might be overestimating how many people import consoles just a little.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

It's wierd how elistist sentiment on this forum has moved from mainstream credit feeders (which I feel is some truth to it) to 1CCers, I suppose soon everybody who doesnt have a WR under their belt are to be labelled a casual shitplayer

[Despatche]

ok time to be boring

trevhead, you are paying less attention to any of this than marc is, you have for a very long time, and that is a problem

Because his point of view is invalid if he can't score in the upper 5% I presume? Grow up.

yes it does

I didn't see him telling anyone how the games should be played, I saw him expressing a personal opinion in a slightly ranting fashion, which was pointed out in the thread title.

yes he did, you didn't read one word of his post

Honestly, you really need to get off this high horse of yours. Your endearing yourself to nobody, and you don't seem to understand that ten years from now, when Cave are gone and gaming as we know it barely exists, nobody will give a flying fuck that you once held the top score in the western hemisphere on Galuda 2.

that's already been proven wrong so many times i don't even know where to begin

It just isn't that important, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to act like a fucking ass to anyone that doesn't meet your exacting criteria on what does or doesn't constitute a 'hardcore' shooter fan

the people who know the rules are absolutely allowed to complain about the people who refuse to learn the rules, while the latter continue to run around the territory of the former, mocking the former for some fake slight

probably about 70% of this board by the way.

to the chagrin of many, that says more about the people who sign up here (read: the people who keep posting here, ex. you) than it does about gus, and my my my i could say quite a few things about the people who sign up here before i could say anything about gus

and this is all coming from someone (me) who cannot play these games well and doesn't care much for gus at the moment, yes. because i know how things work.

[Marc]

ok time to be boring

trevhead, you are paying less attention to any of this than marc is, you have for a very long time, and that is a problem

Because his point of view is invalid if he can't score in the upper 5% I presume? Grow up.

yes it does

I didn't see him telling anyone how the games should be played, I saw him expressing a personal opinion in a slightly ranting fashion, which was pointed out in the thread title.

yes he did, you didn't read one word of his post

Um, no, I read every word. Maybe it's you that needs to go back and read.

Honestly, you really need to get off this high horse of yours. Your endearing yourself to nobody, and you don't seem to understand that ten years from now, when Cave are gone and gaming as we know it barely exists, nobody will give a flying fuck that you once held the top score in the western hemisphere on Galuda 2.

that's already been proven wrong so many times i don't even know where to begin

Which bit, exactly?

[

It just isn't that important, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to act like a fucking ass to anyone that doesn't meet your exacting criteria on what does or doesn't constitute a 'hardcore' shooter fan

the people who know the rules are absolutely allowed to complain about the people who refuse to learn the rules, while the latter continue to run around the territory of the former, mocking the former for some fake slight

Faint slight? When EVERY post in EVERY thread carries some reference to 'shitplayers', 'scrubs' or 'fucking casuals' it becomes rather tedious, and I'm not in the minority here. Also, I was brought up with something that many on this board seem to lack a basic comprehension of - manners. I try to speak to people on this boars as I would if I were having a beer with them. There are some internet hard-men here that speak in a manner that would earn them a pasting out there in the real world.

[

probably about 70% of this board by the way.

to the chagrin of many, that says more about the people who sign up here (read: the people who keep posting here, ex. you) than it does about gus, and my my my i could say quite a few things about the people who sign up here before i could say anything about gus

and this is all coming from someone (me) who cannot play these games well and doesn't care much for gus at the moment, yes.

What could you say exactly? Your post is full of vague allusions but actually goes nowhere and says absolutely nothing. Look, this is a message board for fans of shooters - all fans, not just those deemed 'worthy' - to congregate, chat and share opinion. If you don't like a thread due to the comments being made or the views being expressed, find one you do agree with. Don't wade into other folks conversation with your abrupt, abraisive and rude manner of speaking and expect nobody to react. Gus should stick to Strategy and Hi-Score threads, two in which he's plainly qualified to speak, as the social side of 'Shmups CHAT' is obviously something he is ill-equipped to handle.

[Sapz]

Because his point of view is invalid if he can't score in the upper 5% I presume? Grow up.

I was going to follow up with a detailed explanation of how ridiculous it is for a fucking casual to tell people how these games are meant to be played and bitch about Cave "abandoning" him when they have a huge library he's barely played but fuck it. Despatche won this topic.

Don't you have any other lines? I'm pretty sure everyone else is bored of this one by now.

[NzzpNzzp]

If someone's going to complain about Cave abandoning their true hardcore fans they should be able to prove they're a true hardcore fan themselves.
That's only fair.

Or is elitism only cool when you're looking down on phone players?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Because his point of view is invalid if he can't score in the upper 5% I presume? Grow up.

I was going to follow up with a detailed explanation of how ridiculous it is for a fucking casual to tell people how these games are meant to be played and bitch about Cave "abandoning" him when they have a huge library he's barely played but fuck it. Despatche won this topic.

Don't you have any other lines? I'm pretty sure everyone else is bored of this one by now.

For the next STGT, someone ought to make a team called "Fucking Casuals".

[Drachenherz]

For the next STGT, someone ought to make a team called "Fucking Casuals".

I'd join in a heartbeat

[TrevHead (TVR)]

ok time to be boring

trevhead, you are paying less attention to any of this than marc is, you have for a very long time, and that is a problem

well you might be correct, I don't have the same zeal as before but I'm still enjoy playing them.

I'm often the first person to call myself a fucking casual But I and most folk like me know forum etiquette and stay out of Strategy and don't act like scrubs.


The sad truth is that a few hardcore shmuppers arnt enough to keep CAVE alive so they do need to go more casual, but what ppl here need to understand is that they arn't selling out, they are still trying their best to create games for both the hardcore and casual. And who knows in future maybe someone who got into STGs on the iphone might be posting better scores than Gus. EDIT That's why I keep on harping on about the Wii U with its touchpad. Everybody starts off as a casual, what is important is converting them to hardcore fans like Street Fighter 4 did for VS fighter genre.

[Op Intensify]

Some inaccuracies in the OP post:

Despite their failures like Metal Slug 3D, SNK has made some high quality 3D games. Samurai Shodown 64 2, Buriki One, and Maximum Impact 2 are all definitely classics. Samurai Shodown Sen was also very underrated. Arcade hardware issues aside, I don't think Deathsmiles II was hurt in the least by being 3D. Most of it even looks quite good, if not up to blockbuster AAA standards, in the HD 360 port.

Also, the number of gaijin importers of J-360 systems accounts for an extremely small percentage of the 360's lifetime sales of around 1.5 million (IIRC) in Japan. I doubt they number much more than 10,000, if that.

[Tokyo-J]

Everyone I know who imported a 360 did it for shmups.

The only game genre that is currently supported in Japan that anyone cares about on 360 is Shmups. They are a niche market.

No one is buying 360 in japan for Halo that is for sure. I just do not like playing on IOS. It just is not fun. It is a good value but the ports are half ass gameplay wise.

It is always the least favorite console that has all the shmups. The exception being PS2. The Sega Saturn and Dreamcast had many shmups on both consoles that were superior to others.

[Op Intensify]

No one is buying 360 in japan for Halo that is for sure.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that. It might not be a chart-topping franchise there, but it's always had a solid Japanese fanbase, which includes the manga author Tsutomu Nihei. Halo Legends had to have been produced with Japanese audiences in mind to some extent. Just like us gaijin are really into JPN games, there are a lot of Japanese gamers loyal to Western games. And FPSes as a whole have been gaining ground there for the past few years. The Modern Warfare games have sold very well in Japan.

During the Armored Core V demo period, I met a Japanese guy who bought a 360 to help him learn English and meet American players.

[DragonInstall]

Believe it or not, but I think quite a bit of 360 owners in japan bought it for shooters. I remember seeing some really pro gears of war japanese players.

But I agree IOS is ass for shmups. It's not fun compared to a cabinet or console because it's so stripped down to compensate. Sure for it's price it's great, and for an iphone game it's good. But if that's the way CAVE will continue their shmup franchise on, I will not be playing their future games.

It's a shame really, but I can't blame them going that direction to stay in business. Better they stay alive still developing shmups than nothing at all.

[Blackbird]

For the next STGT, someone ought to make a team called "Fucking Casuals".

Haha. I'm totally in team "Fucking Casuals". When is the next STGT anyway?