Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

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austere
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Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

I finally got some spare time recently so I dropped by and saw that scoring thread which gave me a great idea. Shooters without score! If you're laughing, you're thinking the scoring system will be stripped away completely leaving a brain dead shooter than no one should be interested in. That's not what I'm suggesting ... maybe some background is in order.

Problem

Ages ago, me and Culian were debating (here and here) about the not-so-recent proliferation of games that "suck for survival but are GREAT for scoring". I was trying to argue why these games presented a very poor experience, but I didn't quite prove my point, leaving it a subtle rain check saying I will discuss it as a matter of taste. At first, I thought it should have been a balance, where while the scoring system did add enough complexity to make the game interesting, the game for survival was interesting enough. I was going ahead with this point, but had two experiences which made me unsure of my position... I'll tell you all about them to motivate my point.

I was in Hong Kong, stuck in my lab with a friend during a dangerous thunderstorm outside, and we had nothing to do so we spontaneously decided to watch "King of Kong". It was a really depressing experience -- not to say the movie was not interesting, just exposed a future I'd like anyone I know to avoid. Donkey Kong was such a simple game, yet these guys practiced scenarios and plotted out/figured out things the programmers never even bothered to. I mean you had the guy at the start (I can't be stuffed remembering his name -- let's call him family guy) drawing diagrams on his CRT plotting out the fixed patterns of a spring hopping along the screen that was as going to kill him. It was like watching "A beautiful mind", where the guy was still crazy but in a much less interesting way and not a useful way. Programmers probably don't even bother with this, they just write a scalable routine/table that makes things harder as you progress. Then you had that arrogant guy that was ruining family guy's shit, damn what an asshole that guy is, he had secret videos and strategies and special relations with the score keepers, who were acting very much like an impenetrable clique -- essentially a kind of cult.

So anyway, the movie went along and family guy reached the point where the game encounters a bug and essentially halts, clearly a point in the game the programmers never intended anyone to reach. The cult gathers around like some kind of ritual has been carried out and then cheer frantically as the (relatively less cultish) family guy breaks everyone's high scores. Anyway, for me the most intelligent thing anyone said in the movie was family guy's little girl who, when responding to her father's desire to break the Guinness book record for the Donkey Kong score, said "but some people ruin their lives trying to do that".

But, aren't these guys playing for score? Isn't it pointless to go half way? Isn't part of "playing for score" waiting for Mario to die of a fucking heart attack because you made him jump too much? That's pretty depressing, think of his poor girlfriend! I mean, the arrogant guy didn't care at all, just so that his cult followers can worship him because of his latest high score. What an asshole!

Not too long after watching that movie, I was with my supervisor's kid who wanted to check out my iPhone's games. So I thought I'd see if he'd like Daifukkatsu. Of course, he loved it because of the awesome graphics, fireworks display and so on. I was teaching him what all the various controls did and managed to tell him that the point of the game is to finish it without continuing. Note that, I didn't have to convince him, it seemed obvious to him after I said so. There was no chance I could motivate playing the scoring system to him. I was thinking of ways ... I mean this kid, who will no doubt get his dad to buy it on his iPhone so he could play it, doesn't care if he beat his own score. He's certainly not going to look up this forum and keep track of everyone else's score and try to beat it. He's not going to spend hours so that he could time hypers within a few milliseconds so he could see a bigger number and get the extends he'll get anyway sooner. Shit, the lucky kid has all the time in the world and video games are just one of them. The only thing he seemed to care about, for the short period I hung out with him, was how far he progressed in the game. Seeing what's new (though the "dolls" made him laugh -- a normal reaction, he loved the mech/ship theme obviously) was his motivation and he had like a thousand other games to play so he wouldn't linger much on that either.

In both instances, I saw that the children picked out the most ... normal reaction and preference respectively. I justify this by saying healthy children's minds are the ones which are closest connected to their instincts. There's no higher level experiences or habits convoluting their preference function. In one case, playing for score essentially formed a cult, in the other case, playing for score was completely pointless!

Yet, as we all know, playing for score is a way to make a game more complicated. It puts more action, more things to worry about, which is essential in shooter which are rather simple if we strip away all of the visuals/audio/etc. That's why we keep seeing these "playing for score vs survival" threads. Doesn't this make anyone else feel like the games are essentially incomplete? Why do we have to constantly, in the game, decided whether we're going to switch over to the "survival game" (that is to get to the end in one piece), or stick with the "scoring game" (the so-called "game proper")? Doesn't this feeling jarring? Doesn't it spoil the experience? Why is a choice/optional part of the game presented to us at all?

Reaction

Though I thought about it for some time after that, life got in the way (in a really awful way, let's leave that aside) and I never came to a conclusion. As I saw from the recent thread, I've been beaten to it! I don't want to discuss it here myself, mainly because I've come to the same conclusion after reading it. Those who disagree, it's ok, this isn't for you, this is for people who feel that they're getting an incomplete experience from games with scoring.

What we really need to do (as implied by the thread title), is basically rethink the games we're playing now. The mechanics that make them fun are not only in survival, but the acts you do to obtain a higher score like chaining in DoDonPachi, or getting those lovely chips in Ketsui. What if doing those gave you a big incentive in the actual mechanics of the game (that is, the mechanics essential to your survival)? What if NOT doing those things was a determent, or even fatal? Then you could relax and absolutely immerse yourself in the game without having to decide between scoring and survival. That's because "scoring" (or what was scoring) is now survival.*

No more restartitus, no more hours of practicing the same boss milking it so you could ... milk the next box, ad infinitum. Imagine DoDonPachi Daioujou's popcorn corridors where you had to keep your chain going -- or die, how exhilarating would that be?

For that matter, why should we settle for less?

Solution

So here's what people of like-mind will do, we're going to suggest ways we can modify existing masterpieces to make them scoreless. That is to say, not to simply remove the score counter, that isn't going to cut it. It's going to need reprogramming, even a visual (e.g. new/modified sprite or a complete reskin) or audio change. You're going to have to make the optional parts more of a mandatory aspect to the game.

I'll reserve the next post to point to everyone's (good) suggestions, please only make them if you're really experienced with a particular game, otherwise you won't be familiar with the details that make it fun. You're going to have to put your game designer thinking cap on, this is definitely not an easy task.

Anyway here's an example to get things rolling:

Code: Select all

Giga Wing -MAN LABEL-. Instead of the reflect-shield turning the bullets into medals it terms them into little bolts of energy units, which by collecting you can replenish your ship's energy stores. There's an energy gauge at the top of the screen which depletes as a function of time, and when it hits zero your ship explodes and it's game over. So you are obliged to score the fuck out of the stages merely in order to progress in them, and the quicker the designer has set the energy depletion rate the more aggressive you have to score merely in order to survive.
Damn, just reading that makes me want to play it already. ;) I can't wait to read people's designs so get those creative juices pumping! Don't hesitate to discuss designs either, especially if you know of a nice way to improve them. The less things have to be changed, the more likely someone will pick up your suggestion and run with it. I probably won't have time to make anything out of it, since I'm already so busy while still trying to finish the mods from the other thread. Think of this thread as an archive of ideas for the future. I'm willing and eager to help anyone who wants to pick up the mantle.

* Of course, I'm glossing over 1UPs for the moment but let's side step this issue unless it comes up.
Last edited by austere on Tue May 15, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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austere
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

[reserved for everyone's suggestions]
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Obscura
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Obscura »

austere wrote: No more restartitus, no more hours of practicing the same boss milking it so you could ... milk the next box, ad infinitum. Imagine DoDonPachi Daioujou's popcorn corridors where you had to keep your chain going -- or die, how exhilarating would that be?
If I had to full-chain every stage of DOJ in order to play it at all, I never would have bothered. That doesn't sound exhilarating; that sounds utterly obnoxious.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

austere wrote:Giga Wing -MAN LABEL-. Instead of the reflect-shield turning the bullets into medals it terms them into little bolts of energy units, which by collecting you can replenish your ship's energy stores. There's an energy gauge at the top of the screen which depletes as a function of time, and when it hits zero your ship explodes and it's game over. So you are obliged to score the fuck out of the stages merely in order to progress in them, and the quicker the designer has set the energy depletion rate the more aggressive you have to score merely in order to survive.
That sounds fucking retarded. It was stupid in Sine Mora to punish you for having to juggle the objectives of both concentrating on dodging and having to kill stuff (and die if you hadn't killed enough, particularly on Insane), and it wasn't particularly great in WispLisp either.

Donkey Kong is not a particularly good game to play for score since it isn't a finite game time (compared to the short duration of a standard shmup) edit: wait I'm thinking of Pac-Man's 256th level kill screen, Donkey Kong still has lackluster score mechanics. Likewise, many arcade beat 'em ups are poor games to play for score because points come either from enemy kills, a couple bonus rounds, or collecting food when at full health (and I can think of one where you need luck to get certain food drops at the end of each level, each one giving like 100x more points than the smaller health item). So yeah, scoring is fun in games where the system is good, and scoring sucks if the game's scoring mechanics suck. Giga Wing's scoring mechanics do not suck, and therefore this sort of patch is quite silly. You're generally reflecting stuff constantly anyways aside from waiting for particularly lucrative boss phases, so I don't see how this would change the flow of the game, aside from punishing you with a death if you don't happen to collect enough 'energy units' or whatever.,
Imagine DoDonPachi Daioujou's popcorn corridors where you had to keep your chain going -- or die, how exhilarating would that be?
That idea is to DoDonpachi Daioujou what Thera is to Touhou.
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Tue May 15, 2012 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Gus »

austere wrote:I finally got some spare time recently so I dropped by and saw that scoring thread which gave me a great idea
Stopped reading there.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by RNGmaster »

No more restartitus, no more hours of practicing the same boss milking it so you could ... milk the next box, ad infinitum.
Sounds great, but... you've replaced one kind of restartitis with another, more explicit kind. In games that you're trying to scoreplay, if you make a major mistake you restart, right? It's dumb and arbitrary, but not as dumb and arbitrary as getting a GAME OVER for failing the same scoring maneuvers.
Imagine DoDonPachi Daioujou's popcorn corridors where you had to keep your chain going -- or die, how exhilarating would that be?
Oh yeah, isn't it exhilarating to lose a life when you break a chain and have to restart. Thank you austere, god of shmups, for showing us the light.

P.S. The thing about video games is that all methods of play are equally arbitrary, and therefore equally valid. Like it or not there are some people who enjoy the "dreadfully boring" boss milking. So removing one option because you consider another to be better or less boring just limits what players can do and makes the game ultimately less enjoyable. Less choice does not make the game a better experience.

Basically just play however the fuck you want (thanks Naut).
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Jeneki »

Since most pilots are lolis these days anyways, just put a dollar sign next to the score. Then at the end of the game you give that money to the pilots and if you meet certain thresholds they ... you get the idea.
Typos caused by cat on keyboard.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Hagane »

Psikyo did this long ago. The way to score more is to get in close and kill shit fast, and you will survive more if you get in close and kill shit fast. Do it better and you'll get better scores. They did this through most of their output, up to Dragon Blaze where they ditch the flashing gold bars and integrate them into the "get in close and blow shit fast" system in the form of the gold coins you get for killing enemies with Dragon Shot.

I think Progear kind of does it too. Unlike many other shooters bullet cancelling isn't optional or a way to make things easier but is necessary for survival.

As an aside, I wanted to point out a thing that's been bugging me for a while. Playing for survival and for score aren't mutually exclusive as a lot of people in here seem to believe. If you survive more you are performing better and thus scoring more. If your ability at survival (NMNBing a tough game for example) is really good I don't see how that's less of a good scoring example than full chaining in a Pachi.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

Obscura wrote:
austere wrote: No more restartitus, no more hours of practicing the same boss milking it so you could ... milk the next box, ad infinitum. Imagine DoDonPachi Daioujou's popcorn corridors where you had to keep your chain going -- or die, how exhilarating would that be?
If I had to full-chain every stage of DOJ in order to play it at all, I never would have bothered. That doesn't sound exhilarating; that sounds utterly obnoxious.
What, you don't like scoring? :P This is for people who love it so much they want to make it mandatory. The rest can discuss it elsewhere

To be more serious, I presented a single example, this wasn't one of them. It was a simplification to the extreme. I'm telling you to imagine if DOJ's chaining mechanics actually had a point in the game, so that you're motivated to actually chain these sections properly, or even maintain a full-chain throughout.
BareknuckleRoo wrote: That sounds fucking retarded. It was stupid in Sine Mora to punish you for having to juggle the objectives of both concentrating on dodging and having to kill stuff (and die if you hadn't killed enough, particularly on Insane), and it wasn't particularly great in WispLisp either.
Why is it a punishment and how do you know it's "fucking retarded" without seeing the results or trying it out? Dying randomly without an obvious reason is poor design, that's not what we're advocating here.

If this is the kind of rude reaction/feedback you're going to give people in this thread, please, refrain from commenting!
BareknuckleRoo wrote: Donkey Kong is not a particularly good game to play for score since it isn't a finite game time (compared to the short duration of a standard shmup).
... Did you even read the post? Of course it's a "finite duration game".
Gus wrote: Stopped reading there.
Isn't it lovely how the gutter-level etiquette of 4chan is rising to the surface. Let's keep it civil, thanks.
RNGmaster wrote: Sounds great, but... you've replaced one kind of restartitis with another, more explicit kind.
The whole point of restartitus is you're restarting because you perceive that you "stuffed up the perfect game", where that is no longer a fear if it's purely survival. It just gets harder, that's all, which shouldn't be a problem.
RNGmaster wrote: In games that you're trying to scoreplay, if you make a major mistake you restart, right? It's dumb and arbitrary, but not as dumb and arbitrary as getting a GAME OVER for failing the same scoring maneuvers.
I think the trouble you're having is I've asked you to propose mechanics without scoring and you're interpreting this as me presenting you the SHITTIEST POSSIBLE MECHANICS and asking you to discuss it in this thread.
RNGmaster wrote: Thank you austere, god of shmups, for showing us the light.
Maybe I should tag this thread 18+...

RNGmaster wrote: The thing about video games is that all methods of play are equally arbitrary, and therefore equally valid.
How nihilistic.
RNGmaster wrote: Like it or not there are some people who enjoy the "dreadfully boring" boss milking.
And for the rest, there is this thread, which apparently you feel the need to insert your unwelcome and unwarranted opinion into. It's funny you advocate choice but freely pollute the thread dedicated to people who want an alternative.
RNGmaster wrote: Basically just play however the fuck you want (thanks Naut).
Excuse me as I urinate on the monitor and bite the controller.

---

And now for the human's replies ;)
Hagane wrote:I think Progear kind of does it too. Unlike many other shooters bullet cancelling isn't optional or a way to make things easier but is necessary for survival.
It's better but it's not perfect, it's incomplete because the scoring doesn't make all that sense. I mean it makes better sense than most other games (get more diamonds/rings for your copilot so she loves you more and changes her attributes accordingly). I didn't really go into details because the article I referred to covered it comprehensively (this should be clear by the hint I gave at the bottom regarding 1UPs). But clearly you know what I'm talking about at least. :)
Jeneki wrote:Then at the end of the game you give that money to the pilots and if you meet certain thresholds they ... you get the idea.
LOL... :P Yeah but again, this pushes the "pay off" to the end of the game, rather than during it...
Last edited by austere on Tue May 15, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

is the shmups forum trying to go for a hi score on "most stupid threads in a week"

because i think we're winning
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

BareknuckleRoo wrote:is the shmups forum trying to go for a hi score on "most stupid threads in a week"

because i think we're winning
I think we're pretty close to finding the most uncouth poster.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by dunpeal2064 »

Should make a Garegga patch.

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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Hagane »

Well I think then that Dragon Blaze is the game that gets the closest to what you mention. It doesn't go to the extreme of instantly killing you if you fail to "play for score" (but again, surviving IS scoring) but if you don't use Dragon Shot a lot you WILL die (you won't be able to kill the most dangerous enemies before they get out of hand), besides scoring a lot less.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

Hagane wrote:Well I think then that Dragon Blaze is the game that gets the closest to what you mention. It doesn't go to the extreme of instantly killing you if you fail to "play for score" (but again, surviving IS scoring) but if you don't use Dragon Shot a lot you WILL die (you won't be able to kill the most dangerous enemies before they get out of hand), besides scoring a lot less.
Should be a good candidate to modify it so that score is eliminated completely and supplemented sufficiently with mechanics as described. I haven't played the game, if you come up with something should be interesting. The more intuitive, the better!
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Zaarock »

Hagane wrote:Psikyo did this long ago. ...
Other games I can think of:

Radiant Silvergun: scoring levels up your weapons, the chains are very easy to learn compared to DDP series or Ikaruga so if you play for "score" the game actually becomes pretty easy as you'll be able to kill enemies and bosses very quickly and efficiently (but if you're still playing for the score counter at the end of the game being greedy on stage 5A will fuck your shit up.. the BE ATTITUDE FOR GAINS/engrishprotips for said stage are pretty amusing once you realize the devs are probably referring to having to face said stage many many times)

Guwange/Espgaluda: time slowing mechanics and bullet cancelling help survival significantly but high scoring does require you to wait for the enemies to spew out bullets which increases survival risk, like progear.

BareknuckleRoo wrote:It was stupid in Sine Mora to punish you for having to juggle the objectives of both concentrating on dodging and having to kill stuff ...
Wow, having to kill stuff and dodge projectiles at the same time in a shmup? maybe reiker really did come up with something revolutionary :lol:
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Erppo »

I don't really get why the freedom to choose how to play a game and what goals to pursue in it is a bad thing.

That Giga Wing mod for example, would make "scoring" to some extent mandatory but when you get enough fuel to keep you going, there wouldn't be any incentive to get more of it. That means after you manage to clear the game that way, there is nothing left to it. It would actually limit the experience for both the people who just want to play around and clear the game however and people who want to push their score as high as possible.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Hagane »

Erppo wrote:That means after you manage to clear the game that way, there is nothing left to it.
Well, you could always maximize scoring by reflecting more bullets, which is kinda what top scorers in Gigawing already do, right? I think what he intends is to make scoring mandatory for survival, not to make it impossible to survive unless you get every single point out of the system.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Deca »

dunpeal2064 wrote:Should make a Garegga patch.

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Austere your idea has some merit but this approach is insultingly lazy. You can't just mangle games into something they're not (ps your giga wing idea is just Outzone 2DX), what you should be looking into is making a game from scratch.

But really your idea seems to exacerbate that which you denounce. You're simply forcing the frustrating aspects of score attacking on people while denying them of the reward. It sounds like you don't understand just how difficult scoring is in some of these games. If chaining was required for survival in doj I doubt 80% of the forum would clear stage 1.

Another point you're missing is that players freely switch between scoring and surviving over the course of a run while learning a game. This speeds along progression by allowing them to work on the whole game rather than having to master each section before even having a chance to see the next.
Last edited by Deca on Tue May 15, 2012 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Erppo »

Hagane wrote:
Erppo wrote:That means after you manage to clear the game that way, there is nothing left to it.
Well, you could always maximize scoring by reflecting more bullets, which is kinda what top scorers in Gigawing already do, right? I think what he intends is to make scoring mandatory for survival, not to make it impossible to survive unless you get every single point out of the system.
Ah, I might have misinterpreted it. I thought he talked about removing the score counter entirely but looking at the first post again that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

Erppo wrote:I don't really get why the freedom to choose how to play a game and what goals to pursue in it is a bad thing.
It's jarring, especially in Giga Wing. Am I trying to finish the game, or am I trying to get a good score (thus playing a different game). Why am I collecting all this yellow shit for? Oops, I missed a few of those stars, better restart, regardless of the fact that I'm on the 4th level. etc.
Erppo wrote:That Giga Wing mod for example, would make "scoring" to some extent mandatory but when you get enough fuel to keep you going, there wouldn't be any incentive to get more of it.
Well, what if you mess up later on missing that vital amount of fuel? Surely the strategy of obtaining as much fuel as possible is best and if you've gone beyond what the designers intended as the (let's say) par course, time to move on to another game.
Erppo wrote:That means after you manage to clear the game that way, there is nothing left to it.
Sad, I know, but you can pick up the game later in the year and enjoy it. You don't have to play the game every single day for it to be a good game.
Erppo wrote:It would actually limit the experience for both the people who just want to play around and clear the game however and people who want to push their score as high as possible.
Dude, clearly it would expand the experience for those who want to clear the game -- they could have just ignored all the mechanics associated with score maximisation.

For the "scorer", there's no score in this game and the other people are free to play the thousand or so shooters which keep track of score. :)
Erppo wrote: Ah, I might have misinterpreted it. I thought he talked about removing the score counter entirely but looking at the first post again that doesn't seem to be the case.
No no, you got it right. When you finish the game, that's it, you get nothing more than a Game Over screen and the satisfaction of having completed the game.
Last edited by austere on Tue May 15, 2012 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Obscura »

austere wrote:I'm telling you to imagine if DOJ's chaining mechanics actually had a point in the game, so that you're motivated to actually chain these sections properly, or even maintain a full-chain throughout.
Grabbing a bee with 200 or more chain gives you more hyper meter than without a chain.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by shmuppyLove »

Hagane wrote:I think Progear kind of does it too. Unlike many other shooters bullet cancelling isn't optional or a way to make things easier but is necessary for survival.
Yes cancelling in Progear is pretty much necessary for survival. But don't forget that optimal scoring requires additional techniques. And there is also the added complexity of different pilot/gunner combinations.

It's all about the layers man.

Also Outzone has that bastard energy mechanic that forces you to constantly move forward or die. It's a bit unique though in that it's not an auto-scroller like most shmups.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

Deca wrote: Austere your idea has some merit but this approach is insultingly lazy. You can't just mangle games into something they're not (ps your giga wing idea is just Outzone 2DX), what you should be looking into is making a game from scratch.
You can ask anyone who's made a shooter from scratch what kind of time investment is involved. I'm not going there. Ask Udderdude, lol. But a game that takes the principle into account AND does something novel will require a genius game designer to make, perhaps more genius than IKD et al.

No one is going to claim to be that good here. No one has the experience.

About it being Outzone 2DX, does the scoring system make it more fun (because it's still there)? Then there's something missing even in that. Read the thread again. ;)
Deca wrote: But really your idea seems to exacerbate that which you denounce. You're simply forcing the frustrating aspects of score attacking on people while denying them of the reward.
What you call "frustrating", others will call "challenging". What if they wanted a reason to do all the additional complex actions (as described by shmuppyLove) without the "reward" of score?
Deca wrote: It sounds like you don't understand just how difficult scoring is in some of these games. If chaining was required for survival in doj I doubt 80% of the forum would clear stage 1.
Don't assume too much. That's one of the easiest games to chain by the way, for me anyway.
Deca wrote: Another point you're missing is that players freely switch between scoring and surviving over the course of a run while learning a game. This speeds along progression by allowing them to work on the whole game rather than having to master each section before even having a chance to see the next.
Well, "playing for score" when you're just learning a game will slow you down from finishing the game. I never missed your point, the moment you try to play for score you're putting survival at risk, lowering your chance to see what's next. Worse, ruining the experience of seeing what's next because you're basically taunting a game you haven't even finished yet.

It's like going out of an army barracks untrained and dancing while trying to duck away from flanking fire.
Last edited by austere on Tue May 15, 2012 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hagane
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Hagane »

Oh, so it seems I was the one misinterpreting and Erppo was right. Then no I wouldn't like such a game. I definitely think making scoring mandatory and not something optional is a good thing (not that the opposite is wrong, I like a lot of such games, I just prefer that style), but removing any kind of competition (basically, finishing the game would equal a counterstop and there wouldn't be a way to tell who is the best out of the people who cleared it) from the game isn't a good idea.
shmuppyLove wrote:Yes cancelling in Progear is pretty much necessary for survival. But don't forget that optimal scoring requires additional techniques. And there is also the added complexity of different pilot/gunner combinations.
Yeah, but the system feels more... cohesive, I think is the word, than most Cave games. You can ignore chaining in DDP, collecting disco men in Dangun Feveron or getting 5 chips in Ketsui, but you absolutely need to bullet cancel in Progear if you want to survive.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

Hagane wrote:but removing any kind of competition (basically, finishing the game would equal a counterstop and there wouldn't be a way to tell who is the best out of the people who cleared it) from the game isn't a good idea.
I think the majority of people won't be clearing it, remember that the scoring mechanisms are now mandatory!! When they're really good in a scoring game and past that point, it's just a matter of who dedicated the most time into maximising how much they can taunt the game (even exploiting all kinds of unintended behaviour) into giving them a better score.
Hagane wrote:Yeah, but the system feels more... cohesive, I think is the word, than most Cave games. You can ignore chaining in DDP, collecting disco men in Dangun Feveron or getting 5 chips in Ketsui, but you absolutely need to bullet cancel in Progear if you want to survive.
See, I know for sure you have a sense of it just like I did by your use of the word "cohesive"! :) The scoring mechanism isn't disconnected from the game to the point where it's just contributing to the score and 1UPs. Check the other thread if you want.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Deca »

austere wrote: About it being Outzone 2DX, does the scoring system make it more fun (because it's still there)? Then there's something missing even in that. Read the thread again. ;)
Outzone is actually a very unique and fun game without any complex scoring mechanics. You have to manually scroll the screen by walking forward, but due to your energy ticking down constantly there's always a sense of urgency keeping you from just hanging back and safely dealing with enemies. If you haven't yet played it you should, it sounds like you'd enjoy the game quite a bit.
austere wrote: Don't assume too much. That's one of the easiest games to chain by the way, for me anyway.
I only pulled it as an example because I've been playing it so much lately. Pulling off a big chain isn't hard but full chaining even the first stage requires a fair amount of effort. I'd wager more than the majority of this forum is willing to put forth.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Paradigm »

So basically you're forcing everybody to 'play for score', which means that the people who prefer to just shut their brain off, shoot stuff, dodge stuff (ie play for survival); can't, and the people who do enjoy playing for score don't actually get the satisfaction of competing.

It just sounds like a way of limiting everybody's options.

I understand that you'd like to bring the game's mechanics to the forefront by making their use neccessary for the primary goal (survival) rather than just a secondary goal, but honestly, I can't see how this improves anything. I prefer having the choice to play the game however I wish and certainly don't want to see score omitted completely. I guess some people might not like it, but this genre is made for competition IMO and that's one of the things I love most about it.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by austere »

Zaarock wrote: Guwange/Espgaluda: time slowing mechanics and bullet cancelling help survival significantly but high scoring does require you to wait for the enemies to spew out bullets which increases survival risk, like progear.
The idea then is to take that mechanic, turn it from a survival risk into a survival gain by offsetting the base mechanics accordingly.

Going back to the Gigawing example as an analogy, you turn collecting medals from a risk to a gain, by offsetting the survival mechanics (you run out of fuel you die, you need to collect medals to maintain your fuel supply). Also, there's no score, just to remind people.
Deca wrote:If you haven't yet played it you should, it sounds like you'd enjoy the game quite a bit.
I'll check it out tomorrow right after work. :) Thanks!

Also, I think I can get the full chain in the first stage 90%+ of the time now. Both black and white label, the only really annoying part for someone just starting is knowing which of the enemies will come up next, which is why you'd have to do a little bit more than simply force people to chain (for example, open the window a bit so that after destroying the midboss people aren't left so stranded unless they've memorised what appears next). That's really where designing a game from scratch with this principle is superior.
Paradigm wrote: I understand that you'd like to bring the game's mechanics to the forefront by making their use neccessary for the primary goal (survival) rather than just a secondary goal, but honestly, I can't see how this improves anything.
Makes the game more complete, rather than having a disconnected system on the side that ends up spoiling the main one when you get hooked to it because it's more fun to play with the restrictions caused by it.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by TLB »

Paradigm wrote:So basically you're forcing everybody to 'play for score', which means that the people who prefer to just shut their brain off, shoot stuff, dodge stuff (ie play for survival);
Are you on common-sense-altering drugs, kid? Good luck getting past this forum's beloved Futanari stage 3 with that MO.
can't, and the people who do enjoy playing for score don't actually get the satisfaction of competing.
Ever heard of clearing a game? Or showing people how good you are with a replay (or *gasp* playing in person)? No one's stopping anyone from playing any scoring games. CAVE's backlog isn't disappearing (nor are any others); in fact, they are about done with arcade games.
It just sounds like a way of limiting everybody's options.
No. You have the option to go play a different game.
I understand that you'd like to bring the game's mechanics to the forefront by making their use neccessary for the primary goal (survival) rather than just a secondary goal, but honestly, I can't see how this improves anything. I prefer having the choice to play the game however I wish and certainly don't want to see score omitted completely. I guess some people might not like it, but this genre is made for competition IMO and that's one of the things I love most about it.
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Re: Scoreless shooter mods: "Scoring" for survival

Post by Sapz »

I think a mod like this could be pretty interesting in theory, but in practice I'm having trouble thinking of ways in which it could be more interesting than the original game in any capacity unless the modifications were particularly game-changing. An example I initially thought might be interesting is ESPGaluda, where you'll (let's say) be forced into Overheat (which won't reset between deaths here), and collecting the gold from enemies slowly refills your bomb meter - I mean, this sounds enjoyable to me, but it doesn't sound like anything I couldn't already more or less emulate with minimal differences by just playing the game in Overheat in the first place.

I'd guess that whether this is enjoyable or not would rely very much on how heavily modified the game was; something like what I suggested doesn't sound like a significant improvement on the original's possibilities to me, and the proposed idea of 'follow the scoring system to X degree (on average) or die' sounds, mmm... well, if people could do well there, I think most would rather do it in a capacity where they can compete with others and record their own improvement; that is, doing the same thing in the original and getting a nice score for their trouble.

It's an interesting thought though, and I suspect I might have misinterpreted something, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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