Is MAME good or bad for today's small developer?

[casualcoder]

I'm interested in what you all think about the issue of mame and it's impact on small developers over the recent years. A good case can be made for all sides of the issue. Here are the arguments as I see them:

1) mame, and pirated games, hurt developers because there is no way for them to get paid. The results are direct losses which have shut down so many small production companies over the years.

2) mame doesn't directly cost a small developer anything because the market is so small to begin with, and the market of mame users even smaller, and likely these people had no way of playing the games to begin with outside of a distant arcade or expensive pcb release.

3) mame benefits and EARNS money for small developers. In business, the cost of customer acquisition is often considered almost as high as the expected revenue of the product because customers, once acquired, may become paying customers for a lifetime. In this model, developers like cave have aquired many of its worldwide customers through direct exposure to mame, and is one of the reasons it is able to stay active.


Of all of these, i think (3) is the one i align myself with the most. However, for it to be viable you have to have a good product but of course in business there are no guarantees.

There is even a lot of evidence throughout the digital marketplace that this model is the way of the future. $1 (or FREE) iOS apps, Facebook apps and games, YouTube, etc. likely this will also usher in a stronger push for ad revenue to offset acquisition costs (in-game especially), which could become a strong negative.

So, what do you all think? Should mame be banished, should it be tolerated, or should it be capitalized on? What effect does your answer have on the future of small developers and how, or if, they continue to make their products?

PS) Although it sounds like it, this isn't homework, or for an essay or anything. Just interested in what you all think.

[joeks]

2 or 3. I think that way about movie and music piracy too. Piracy broadens the public that gets in touch with the product. Some of them might actually go out and buy that stuff and become fans for life or whatever.

[trap15]

MAME as a rule doesn't emulate anything that's been manufactured in the past 5 (I think?) years, so it doesn't really matter today since the developer likely has stopped making money off of the products sale at that point.

However, when MAME breaks this rule, then it's something to consider.

[casualcoder]

MAME as a rule doesn't emulate anything that's been manufactured in the past 5 (I think?) years, so it doesn't really matter today since the developer likely has stopped making money off of the products sale at that point.

However, when MAME breaks this rule, then it's something to consider.

Right, there is that as well. But even though those games are not being sold to arcades any longer, they are often coming out on consoles (ketsui, esp2, mushi, ddp, guwange, etc). Does mame then compete with the potential console sales of these versions? Or does it help?

I'm willing to bet that the majority of members on this board are western gamers, who got introduced to foreign shmups through mame, and are now mostly paying customers. I know I would prefer buying an accurate official port from cave than play the same game on mame... And I'm not a 'buy-first, ask questions later' person in general. It's just I have come to trust cave as a company and I want to participate in the companies current and future success. That's why I pay in that case in particular. And it also somehow makes me enjoy the games more.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Although i'm not that knowledgable in legit arcade ports / emulations, but imo mame is a good thing as it helps keep arcade games alive and provides a market for modern arcade rereleases on XBLA etc. I would also hazard a guess that it helps curb shoddy ports since legit releases are competing directly with the mame version, dunno how much it has raised the bar, but didn't CAVE have to patch Guwange because it faired badly against the mame version?

What Mame did do was to make me a Tate freak, something that is missing from XBLA Gameroom games and the main reason that stopped me from buying Detana Twinbee on XBLA. How do most legit arcade releases on the consoles compare to their mame counterparts? Do they have features like button rebinding, Tate, savestates etc that we have all come to expect from our emulated games?

[Krimzon Kitzune]

*

[colour_thief]

I feel very strongly about supporting shmups with real dollars and not just enthusiastic playing. But to be honest, I was introduced to Cave through MAME and never encountered a genuine copy of their games in real life until I bought one myself. Furthermore, back when I used MAME I wasn't in the financial position to be buying them anyways. These days I don't even have MAME installed. So, anecdotally, you can throw me into category 3).

I'd argue that overall, MAME doesn't hurt developers, deadbeat players do.

There are always going to be people immoral enough to pirate everything they can, even if they can afford to pay for it. I've heard some arguments deflecting the blame from such deadbeat players... Saying that, through their competition and community participation, they actually foster an environment for a paying client base to grow, even if they are not themselves paying customers.

I suppose this is where I personally draw the line in terms of piracy tolerance. To me, it is like saying that to fix the economy we should give out really fat welfare cheques to the unemployed (which would then be spent and stimulate the economy). Neither is a sustainable solution... At the end of the day someone has to pay the bills.

[Nasirosuchus]

MAME only emulates arcade releases that are three or more years old.

[gameoverDude]

I doubt Cave and certain other companies would be as familiar to Western audiences if not for MAME. MAME does serve as free advertising to some extent. Most new titles require too much CPU power for MAME to practically emulate, anyway.

Capitalize on MAME. A PSP/Vita is far more convenient than a laptop computer in some cases. And MAME isn't conveniently playable on consoles. Cave could get some sales out of porting their titles to Vita as downloads, then maybe releasing a hard copy compilation later with several titles on it. SNK should keep porting Neo games to PSN.

MAME won't give you the extra modes found in Cave's 360 ports, either. This makes the MAME emulation like Shareware Doom in comparison to the registered full version. Someone who has tried ESPG2 in MAME may likely go after the 360 port to get the extra modes and HD graphics.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I was thinking of older games not the newer games like those from CAVE. I always tend to think of emulation as means of conveniently playing old games rather than buy 2nd hand off ebay and have a house full of games and SD consoles that i'll probably only play once a blue moon. If there is a older emulation that I like but theres a new version of it that improves on it in some way il'd much prefer that, i'm not intrested in legit games that are substandard to the emulated version.

Since modern consoles can play arcuate or enhanced ports of modern arcade games theres certainly difference between those and older gen arcade ports.

[BulletMagnet]

I feel very strongly about supporting shmups with real dollars and not just enthusiastic playing. But to be honest, I was introduced to Cave through MAME and never encountered a genuine copy of their games in real life until I bought one myself. Furthermore, back when I used MAME I wasn't in the financial position to be buying them anyways. These days I don't even have MAME installed.

That's a very close approximation of how I got into shmups myself...it's kind of scary how much gaming money I've spent over the past decade and change thanks to trying stuff out on MAME, heh. Granted, I'm probably something of a minority in this way (as the previous poster said, a good chunk of emulators/pirates just play stuff for free because they can, and will do nothing else until something physically stops them), but examples like this do exist out there.

[shmuppyLove]

I don't quite understand the premise.

MAME is for arcade emulation, which small developers are releasing arcade games on PCBs these days?

[Iori Branford]

I doubt Cave and certain other companies would be as familiar to Western audiences if not for MAME. MAME does serve as free advertising to some extent. Most new titles require too much CPU power for MAME to practically emulate, anyway.

Capitalize on MAME. A PSP/Vita is far more convenient than a laptop computer in some cases. And MAME isn't conveniently playable on consoles. Cave could get some sales out of porting their titles to Vita as downloads, then maybe releasing a hard copy compilation later with several titles on it. SNK should keep porting Neo games to PSN.

MAME won't give you the extra modes found in Cave's 360 ports, either. This makes the MAME emulation like Shareware Doom in comparison to the registered full version. Someone who has tried ESPG2 in MAME may likely go after the 360 port to get the extra modes and HD graphics.

All the right answers right here. Any developer whose product is available enough, well-known enough, has undownloadable and unemulatable features enough and, oh that's right, quality enough has NOTHING to fear from MAME.

[casualcoder]

I don't quite understand the premise.

MAME is for arcade emulation, which small developers are releasing arcade games on PCBs these days?

I'm not sure how you're meaning that but the obvious answer, and the one that keeps coming up, is Cave in particular but there are others releasing in arcades in Japan especially, but also there is the question of console rereleases touched on in previous posts (mame versions of older arcade games getting rereleases on consoles concurrently). But although this focused on mame mainly because of the state of shmups in particular, this also has to do with piracy in general. There are points on both sides.

One other thing I will add is that I've noticed when I was younger, and poorer, I was far more likely to get pirated games, but my enjoyment of them was less. I suppose the reason was because I had a pile of DVDs with dozens of games on them and since I didn't even spend anything on them, I usually gave them one play and never gave it a serious shot again. Same thing happened for me with music. I remember when I had to trek out to the music store with about $20 to burn and bought an cd on little more than a hunch. And you can bet I gave that Counting Crows CD a chance before finally determining that, yes indeed, it actually sucks and I wasted my money. But every now and again you would find something that you didn't appreciate until giving it a longer chance.

That to me, the devaluing of the experience even for the pirating gamer, is the problem for me and is why I have refused to hack my recent consoles (although region unlocking my x360 sure has tempted me!). But also, as I said, I am more conscious of wanting to support developers who are deserving.

[casualcoder]

I was thinking of older games not the newer games like those from CAVE. I always tend to think of emulation as means of conveniently playing old games rather than buy 2nd hand off ebay and have a house full of games and SD consoles that i'll probably only play once a blue moon.

Yeah that is the original idea behind mame anyhow; to preserve for posterity, and appreciate the history of gaming. I think a lot of new, young developers and gamers out there should be exposed to old arcade titles also. There has been a strong push recently away from the core mechanics of gaming - notably, challenge, tight controls, and minimalism (you have 8 buttons in god of war, but really you can beat the game with one attack button and a snooze alarm)

[casualcoder]

. I would also hazard a guess that it helps curb shoddy ports since legit releases are competing directly with the mame version, dunno how much it has raised the bar, but didn't CAVE have to patch Guwange because it faired badly against the mame version?

I don't know about Guwange needing a patch. I don't recall any problems with the early xbla release but certainly the mame ports would pressure developers to at least try to be up to par. One thing I always found funny is I bet a lot of devs would love to have the ability to use mame emulation for their console releases, but of course the politics of it all would make it pretty much impossible. But, it's ironic considering it would save devs a ton of money in recoding and testing.

[casualcoder]

MAME won't give you the extra modes found in Cave's 360 ports, either. This makes the MAME emulation like Shareware Doom in comparison to the registered full version. Someone who has tried ESPG2 in MAME may likely go after the 360 port to get the extra modes and HD graphics.

Yes, cave in particular is amazing with their added versions. Every single cave game I have has atleast 2 or 3 fully playable, and very different, game styles. This to me shows that they are real perfectionists, and always have ideas they wanted to explore and add to the game. It adds a lot of value above and beyond a straight port. Many other devs just give you a basic version of the arcade port... Which is great... But, it's one of the main reasons I get annoyed when I hear people bitching about 2d games being $30 or more. It's that kind of ignorant mentality that makes it hard for a dev like cave to push through the noise. In reality, they are often undercharging when measured against what you get from lazily produced major-studio releases.

[DJ Incompetent]

I-...-I'm lost here.
So we're calling Cave small dev in this scope? I guess we'll say Treasure is small too for this example? Yes?

1) mame, and pirated games, hurt developers because there is no way for them to get paid. The results are direct losses which have shut down so many small production companies over the years.

This is really about what mame games would possibly compete with a dev's direct sale. So that is pretty much Guwange and Radiant Silvergun, basically; only because they exist in XBLA with a Mame release. Everything else is only available in a used market where the small developer wouldn't see the money from a second-hand sale anyway.

2) mame doesn't directly cost a small developer anything because the market is so small to begin with, and the market of mame users even smaller, and likely these people had no way of playing the games to begin with outside of a distant arcade or expensive pcb release.

Directly, no it doesn't cost them anything. I've suspected there's pretty much two types of MAME players. There's the "everything" people and the "I know what I like" people.

The "everything" people yes, have stolen all the games. But life dictates those players do not possibly have time to actually explore their collections with exception to a few (likely really mainstream) games. So what happens with the "everything" mame pirate is that the player basically has the equivalent of 6000 game demos and only truly steals the full value of a videogame with very select few of those titles. It is likely the "everything" mame pirate has only seen the first few stages of Guwange or Silvergun, if he or she has played them at all. As XBLA has demos of everything anyway, no harm has truly been committed unless we're going to call "demo overtime" theft. We're not going to, because that's stupid.

The "I know what I like" people have narrowed their mame thefts down to a more manageable number, say 500 or less. These players have probably tried to learn more mechanics of the games they took and may actually know how to play the games at some respectable level. When a player invests real time in a game, he or she gains the tendency to spot differences in other versions, respect the dev who made the game the player spends so much time on, or develops some strange unexplained guilt or ethics. To oversimplify what I'm saying, I'm betting an "I know what I like" player who happened to steal 'n get Guwange and Radiant Silvergun working has played them to the point where the player recognizes the value of the XBLA versions (a big one being online leaderboards) and has likely bought some legit version of the real games anyway.

3) mame benefits and EARNS money for small developers. In business, the cost of customer acquisition is often considered almost as high as the expected revenue of the product because customers, once acquired, may become paying customers for a lifetime. In this model, developers like cave have aquired many of its worldwide customers through direct exposure to mame, and is one of the reasons it is able to stay active.

This is probably the most true statement of the three. The big question is how many players take this route of becoming loyal customers because of mame exposure; the "I know what I like" people actually buying a version of a game they are familiar with or buying the small dev's new hotness later?

I'd like to think that the rate of "I know what I like" mame pirates eventually buying real versions and/or becoming longer-term legit customers is equal to the "lost sales" rate of "I know what I like" players who exhausted the full content of games they stole and have not bought any versions of that product or similar products from the same developer with any brand loyalty.


Conclusion, I think the number of new customers generated because of mame is close to equal the rate of sales losses because of mame. It is a giant wash. Aaaand impossible for me to prove.

[Nasirosuchus]

That to me, the devaluing of the experience even for the pirating gamer, is the problem for me and is why I have refused to hack my recent consoles (although region unlocking my x360 sure has tempted me!). But also, as I said, I am more conscious of wanting to support developers who are deserving.

There may be a loss of value to you, but there's no loss of value to someone who doesn't see paying in upwards of $70 per game and several hundred dollars for a Japanese console as a worthwhile investment.

[IseeThings]

Would you have such close ports / emulated games WITHOUT Mame?

Given no alternative it would be much easier to put out shoddy ports, also without MAME as a reference some of the emulators you can buy might not exist, even if selling MAME directly is prohibited.

My opinion? I don't think it makes one iota of difference to sales. These days I hate to say it but almost nobody even KNOWS about MAME. By doing such a poor job of emulation of 3d systems (PSX upwards) it's dug itself into a hole of irrelevancy, and been forgotten about by the masses.

Couple of years back I had many people asking me about MAME after finding out what it was and twigging that I was one of the main devs. These days nobody seems to know what it is and in most cases if I mention it / talk about it I get blank stares.