Kickstarter Shmups

Reiker · Post by **Reiker** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:03 pm

Gentlemen,

Would you back a brand new shoot'em up game on Kickstarter, designed and balanced by one of the most prominent Japanese shmup studios, featuring the production values of Sine Mora?

If not, why not?
What are your concerns, if any?
How much money would you donate?
What kind of rewards are you most interested in?

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:05 pm

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40632

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40965

Eaglet · Post by **Eaglet** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:12 pm

You would of course get support from anybody who isn't stupid if you managed to convince a jap. company that this is a good idea.

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:22 pm

I would, provided it appeared certain the mechanics basically remained "5-stage arcade-solid."

THE · Post by **THE** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:23 pm

Depends of who the developer is and for which platform:

If it's by Toaplan/Raizzing/Seibu/Psikyo/Taito or IREM:

Arcade Jamma PCB: 500-1000 EUR
PC/X360/PS3: 10-15 EUR
IOS: 5 EUR

If it's by Treasure: nothing, their games are not fun

Reiker · Post by **Reiker** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:28 pm

Elixir wrote:http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40632

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40965

Thank you!

I don't see this related to the theoretical threads, though. This is not about the viability of Kickstarter as a shmup-funding platform, but a direct question to the community.

The more detailed the answers and more focused on the actual questions, the better! Thank you in advance!

disCorder · Post by **disCorder** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:40 pm

Reiker wrote:Gentlemen,
Would you back a brand new shoot'em up game on Kickstarter, designed and balanced by one of the most prominent Japanese shmup studios, featuring the production values of Sine Mora?

Most probably, yes.

What are your concerns, if any?

Not interested in smartphones/pads and that seems to be all the rage these days. Donating like this is also risky business since you never know how much your vision of the upcoming game is going to differ from the devs..

How much money would you donate?

Depends on the platforms. smartphones/pads 0$. consoles 0-15$, PC 15-25$. Also the rewards matter.

What kind of rewards are you most interested in?

Physical. Posters, boxes, manuals, art booklets, soundtracks, stuff signed by the devs..
I really like what DoubleFine are doing with the documentary too.

casualcoder · Post by **casualcoder** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:46 pm

I don't know what kickstarter is, but donations to play or to produce the project? Either way, I understand the donation model well but I have trouble applying it to something like game design or even game consumption.

Basically, I think the keys to great production often come with overcoming risk. By using a donation system, you would bypass ordinary risk and this often results in a bad product (give me $10,000 for investing and I will not invest nearly as seriously as if it was $10,000 of my own money).

And as far as donation to play, I think a similar problem arises with the devaluation of the product from the get-go ("well, I'm not going to make this product GREAT because there will likely only be a few donations anyways, it's never going to be a HIT").

So, thats my opinion on donation-ware. I think people generally have no problem paying a reasonable sum for quality. As for using a game like Sine Mora as a benchmark, that may also be a mistake. A cursory look at posts related to the game on here are mostly unfavorable. It seems that game is more of a 'shmup for the masses' rather than one coveted by serious shmup players. That would also conflict with a donation model as donations are generally awarded by not casual outsiders but rather die-hard enthusiasts.

With that said, I think there is a big gaping hole where new shmup devs are concerned. The genre is almost single-handedly sustained by a single developer - Cave, and there is no reason other devs couldn't come along and create the next great shmup, so the more the merrier.

BareKnuckleRoo · Post by **BareKnuckleRoo** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:05 pm

Reiker wrote:featuring the production values of Sine Mora?

You mean focusing more on graphics than gameplay and ending up with a shmup that has non-configurable analog controls, having to mash the shot button (as in using a rapid fire controller) to actually damage stuff in a timely fashion and a shit scoring system along with a host of other issues?

kill it with fire

Reiker · Post by **Reiker** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:10 pm

casualcoder wrote:...

This one is an interesting post. Looking at the (Sine Mora) sales numbers, it's now clear that the "casual outsiders" are not really interested in the genre, no matter how "shiny" your game is.

Die-hard enthusiasts, on the other side, are pretty much happy with the status quo. They still get 2-3 major releases per year, and that's enough if you take your hobby seriously.

The problem is with the last paragraph. There is a Hungarian proverb: one tavern, one piper - meaning there's no room for direct competition. Cave may single-handedly serve its fans, but even they struggle with their market penetration. There is simply no room for another developer in the segment - no room for another musician. The tavern has not enough guests to pay even its beloved piper properly anymore.

Yet, you are asking for entertainment, more music. My perception of Kickstarter (a crowdfunding site) is different: what you pay there, is not a donation in the classic sense of the word. You're basically buying a concert ticket there.

I don't think that ever devaluated a concert.

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:15 pm

fiiiine, I'll give a thoughtful answerrrr.

What are your concerns, if any?

The demand of "content gamers" heavily derailing or diluting the focus and scope of the game, as there are far more and richer "content gamers (casual & hardcore)" than knowledgeable (competitive) players who know the basics of what should go under the hood of a STG before adding the unique differentiating mechanics or stage designs.

And I'd be concerned the online leaderboard doesn't work.

How much money would you donate?

$10-$20? More if this game looked to be everything I wanted (I'm assuming that means to get the product made, and then I have to buy the actual product later). There are many, many things the STG can improve and innovate on that are just never done without the dev also butchering the basic game formula/template that makes these games appealing as they are.

What hardware this is going on is important, and as you saw before, no matter what the choice you're going to get silly backlash from somewhere. If the intent is to release a PCB, the funding results (not of me, but from people) should be wildly different.

What kind of rewards are you most interested in?

None. Just don't skimp of developing the game.
(I keep reading the horrors of successful kickstarters backfiring because of overpromising rewards that sap most of the money earned)

Zaarock · Post by **Zaarock** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:49 pm

BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Reiker wrote:featuring the production values of Sine Mora?
Sine Mora gameplay rage

lol

Reiker wrote:... There is simply no room for another developer in the segment - no room for another musician. The tavern has not enough guests to pay even its beloved piper properly anymore.

I don't see where this comes from.. cave seem to be pretty happy with still doing arcade releases for their small fanbase and some lower budget mobile games instead of trying to appeal to new people with shmups.

To me G.Rev or Treasure seem more like developers who would think of bigger budget graphics and cinematics like in sine mora and their own games. and IMO would appeal more to the masses than Caves offerings which are pretty overrepresented in the west as the modern examples of the shmup genre.

I'm sure people from here would be as happy to put some money in for say a Border Down remake G.Rev has been thinking about or Project RS-3 by Treasure.. I for one would be more interested in either of those than yet another new Cave shmup.

Weak Boson · Post by **Weak Boson** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:25 pm

I would certainly contribute if the project looked good. Having a developer with a good reputation would be the main thing. If that were the case then I'd happily donate however much also got me a copy of the game. Extra rewards don't particularly appeal to me, though if anything were to tempt me it would be a soundtrack download or CD.

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:41 pm

If you guys can assure me the project gets a PC release, I would probably pour $20-$25 for it. I love the look of Sine Mora, the style and the "otherness" of using a pretty uncommon language for a game. I would've bought it day one but... being XBLA only, that screwed me over as the 360 is a region locked overpriced piece of crap with no official support whatsoever where I live. So, hope you can get it to other platforms, preferably those that let you update and fix stuff easily

However, when you talk about production values, why not making a truly beautiful 2D sprite-based shooter with incredible effects that will probably still look superb in the next 10 years instead of a 3D one that might not age all that well? Ok, this would lead to the 2D vs. 3D fight so maybe is not the best of the ideas. People want flashy cinematic shit and handholding with collect-a-thons and windows popping all over the place telling you how much you progressed. Argh. It's that I feel that the sprite-based shooters were never fully explored in depth. I still lament Taito going early 3D with RayStorm instead of that 2D sequel of RayForce...

For example, if Jamestown achieved such pretty graphics, why not trying to take it from there and carry things one level above with a great scoring system and a true vertical approach with TATE and all the shit, bells and whistles. Maybe you could experiment with an Arrange and a "Maniac" mode. From there you can go thinking how to drop the additional stuff needed to grip more people in. Achievements, a shop system to unlock stuff and "content" (even if it's pointless as hell, like more continues, a second ship, practice mode, an Extra Stage, etc.) just, for the love of god, no DLC. I would rather have people bitch and unlock everything with their skill.

Commenting something about the setting can help too. Some enemies (and player ships) with personality wouldn't hurt. Steampunk, space, mega-high-surreal-tech whatever, as long as the bosses are huge and badass, it all helps. Also, the OST, I'm a fan of Yamaoka but for his SH works, I would rather pick something more upbeat, dunno, like the Psyvariar 2 OST or pick some heavy metal for a change rather than the usual synth-driven electronic tunes.

Ghetto Tate · Post by **Ghetto Tate** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:56 pm

prominent Japanese shmup studios

If that meant Cave then I´d probably donate $100
If it was another company - $20 max

CStarFlare · Post by **CStarFlare** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:54 pm

Reiker wrote:Would you back a brand new shoot'em up game on Kickstarter, designed and balanced by one of the most prominent Japanese shmup studios, featuring the production values of Sine Mora?

Hell yes. Some of the design decisions in Sine Mora rubbed me the wrong way, but ultimately I really like what you guys were going for and have been hoping that the people involved are interested in doing more.

What are your concerns, if any?

Sine Mora had a lot of little things that would have been nitpicky complaints on their own, but became infuriating when combined. My greatest concern is that we'll end up in another love/hate relationship.

How much money would you donate?

I'd be willing to put down at least what I'd put down for a physical release of a Cave game. For all the things I didn't like, I loved most of the things Sine Mora tried and got a lot right. The developers showed some serious interest and passion for a genre that most devs roll their eyes at. I really want that to keep that around.

What kind of rewards are you most interested in?

A great game.

Maybe I'm overtalking Sine Mora in relation to what's being planned here - if a different studio is involved I'm sure the end result will look much different. But I'm glad to see Reiker's still in the game.

colour_thief · Post by **colour_thief** » Tue May 01, 2012 12:18 am

I feel that because the genre has matured so much, more than a mere casual/enthusiast divide there are many further divisions among enthusiasts. The decision to support would be very personal, varying hugely from player to player depending on the project specifics and their game type preferences.

It's harsh, but I believe it would be extremely challenging to get the attention of a large quantity of us. If it were, for example, an Ikaruga sequel, half of us would not be able to control our frothing, while the other half would just keep playing Mars Matrix.

Personally, I'd probably blindly support $200 or more to a project from Cave, G.rev, Treasure, or possibly Qute. Offer anything from the Otomedius developers, and I'd secret hope it never got funded. Anything in between the two extremes, I'd probably throw maybe $20 at.

Op Intensify · Post by **Op Intensify** » Tue May 01, 2012 12:20 am

If you actually have a project in mind that you might make a reality, Reiker, I'd gladly donate the full sale price of the game if it would guarantee me a copy. So long as it doesn't hit three figures, and assuming the game looks good, of course.

Unless it's on smartphones. I can't play those games, and I'm not very interested in them anyway. I would ideally like the game to be on 360/PS3/PC.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Tue May 01, 2012 2:52 am

if you could promise it would be straight up hardcore, no energy bars, inertia on the ship, "unique" design touches and other euroshmup idiocy, you would have some of my cash.

TrevHead (TVR) · Post by **TrevHead (TVR)** » Tue May 01, 2012 6:17 am

Yes depending on who it is, what type of STG it is, and if its on the 360 or PC. £10-£15 knowing that its a Japanese dev, possibly more its something I really want or I get the game.

colour_thief hit the nail on the head, folk here and elsewhere know what they like and what they don't like and whatever new comes out will always to compared to older classics. What CAVE does well is that have many different modes and in their games so ppl of all skills can enjoy their games to some degree including iphone gamers. Others shmups have their own little niche.

For KS gifts merchandise is a good idea T shirts, signed posters etc are a good idea but those should be priced at a premium and not take money away from development. Playtesting and name in the credits could be an idea for the top bracket.

What is important to me is that the game will be playtested with Japanese players so we can avoid anything like Sine Mora, or atleast a patch or two that fixes aspects the devs might have missed. Any competitive game is dead without some form of iteration, even the doujin guys do it with their trials.

MR_Soren · Post by **MR_Soren** » Tue May 01, 2012 3:59 pm

I have contributed to three Kickstarters so far. If you're curious to see what attracts me specifically, look at these projects:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/667 ... -adventure
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/161 ... un-returns
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/698 ... tar-castle

I have contributed $100 or more to each of these projects. Getting something physical is key. Behind the scenes things like documentaries, source code, etc. are also very interesting to me.

For a shoot-em-up kickstarter, I'd want to know details about who's making it, design philosophy and goals, and I would expect PCB to be available at one of the reward levels.

SuperPang · Post by **SuperPang** » Tue May 01, 2012 5:26 pm

I'd certainly support it. As others have said, the format and developer involved would dictate how much I contributed.

I would be more interested in something on 360 than anything else, less interested on handhelds or iOS. Wouldn't be interested in a PC release personally but I might still make a small contribution in support.

If for example this was an XBLA project with the likes of Cave, Grev or Treasure (unlikely), I'd be happy to donate well over $100. For that I'd expect a download code and something extra. If you got some neat signed merchandise I would go higher if I got aroused. If it's the likes of Warashi, Milestone, Moss or Triangle Service the donation would be less but I'd still support it. If you plan on licensing the Armed Police Batrider name from 8ing and getting Yagawa san on board I'll remortgage my house.

Also, don't take a lack of response in this thread as a lack of interest. Many enthusiasts will assume this was yet another 14 year olds poll about how Cave will go bankrupt if they don't support Steam.

THE · Post by **THE** » Tue May 01, 2012 6:13 pm

SuperPang wrote: If for example this was an XBLA project with the likes of Cave, Grev or Treasure (unlikely), I'd be happy to donate well over $100.

Kickstarter wouldn't work well for console releases. Releasing a game on consoles is complicated and one is at mercy of the arbitrariness from MS/Sony/Nintendo.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that a fully backed game can come to consoles.

Only PC/iOS would be a realistic option.

Treasure would be the only dev. that could draw in enough funds IMHO. Both hardcores and pretentious hipsters like Ikaruga. I'm pretty sure that Reiker is aiming at them. G.rev would be not a good idea.

SuperPang wrote: If you plan on licensing the Armed Police Batrider name from 8ing and getting Yagawa san on board I'll remortgage my house.

Oh yeah, I would be in it with a couple grands too. Well if it's on JAMMA...

TrevHead (TVR) · Post by **TrevHead (TVR)** » Tue May 01, 2012 6:24 pm

THE wrote:Kickstarter wouldn't work well for console releases. Releasing a game on consoles is complicated and one is at mercy of the arbitrariness from MS/Sony/Nintendo.

What about the Wii? How is licensi.. (gets stoned to death)

MR_Soren · Post by **MR_Soren** » Wed May 02, 2012 3:24 pm

THE wrote:
SuperPang wrote: If you plan on licensing the Armed Police Batrider name from 8ing and getting Yagawa san on board I'll remortgage my house.
Oh yeah, I would be in it with a couple grands too. Well if it's on JAMMA...

This will sound like bullshit, but I almost ended my previous post with "My contribution will go up significantly if you get Yagawa to do another APB."

SuperPang · Post by **SuperPang** » Wed May 02, 2012 4:30 pm

THE wrote:
Kickstarter wouldn't work well for console releases. Releasing a game on consoles is complicated and one is at mercy of the arbitrariness from MS/Sony/Nintendo.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that a fully backed game can come to consoles.

Only PC/iOS would be a realistic option.

In that case, I'd buy an iOS game but the contribution wouldn't be great (I play them for about 5 minutes). I'm a Mac user so PC would be out unless it came to the Mac App store as well.

JAMMA would be wishful thinking I guess.

If only someone had bespoke MVS hardware to license

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Wed May 02, 2012 4:39 pm

Reiker wrote:
Elixir wrote:http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40632

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40965
Thank you!

I don't see this related to the theoretical threads, though. This is not about the viability of Kickstarter as a shmup-funding platform, but a direct question to the community.

How does this differentiate from "if Cave uses Kickstarter, would you pledge towards them"? They would need an immediate obligation to localize their games to the audience donating to them (which I previously said in the previous threads). Many Japanese developers don't localize, but outsource to third party, so donating to something "designed and balanced by one of the most prominent Japanese shmup studios" isn't going to work. Rather, people would have to donate to a publisher like Rising Star Games.

Reiker wrote:The more detailed the answers and more focused on the actual questions, the better! Thank you in advance!

Why don't you just tell us what your true purpose for creating this thread is?

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Wed May 02, 2012 5:29 pm

Anything other than digital distribution seems totally self defeating. Manufacturing and distribution costs would eat into what is likely to be a small pot of money. You're also significantly reducing the target audience size and potential profit. I'd rather that any excess of funds went into extra dev time polishing the product/more money to the dev.

So, for a quality digital only product I'd pay $100+.

If the limited funds are going to be wasted on anything physical, then I wouldn't contribute to such a project.

THE · Post by **THE** » Wed May 02, 2012 5:33 pm

SuperPang wrote: JAMMA would be wishful thinking I guess.

If only someone had bespoke MVS hardware to license

We would certainly license our MVS designs to a competent developer...
The problem with MVS is, that there is no way that a Japanese developer would even think about using it without a proper SNK license (we already tried it, there is no chance).

But there is hope. The future is JAMMA

Reiker · Post by **Reiker** » Thu May 03, 2012 7:21 am

Elixir wrote:Why don't you just tell us what your true purpose for creating this thread is?

We are actively discussing this possibility with a Japanese partner. So, the "Japanese would never do this" argument is not valid. This (miserably named) topic was created to measure demand and attitude.

Also, sometimes, "forum wisdom" helps.

colour_thief wrote: "It's harsh, but I believe it would be extremely challenging to get the attention of a large quantity of us."

Indeed. The shmups community is extremely diverse for a niche genre, which is a luxury in these times.

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