Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

[Skykid]

One would assume when a company grows in stature it would have more resources available to create original works. In Cave's case, since gaining increased exposure in the west and revenue via ios and xbox 360 production, their original IP's have pretty much ceased to exist.

The frequency of original work produced between '95 and 2005 averages 1.3 games a year. Here's a breakdown:

Cave's original shooting game releases between 1995 - 2009:

DonPachi - 1995
DoDonPachi - 1997
ESP Ra.De. - 1998
Dangun Feveron / Fever S.O.S. - 1998
Guwange - 1999
Progear - 2001
DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou - 2002
Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi - 2003
Espgaluda - 2003
Mushihime-sama - 2004
Espgaluda II - 2005
Puzzle! Mushihime-tama - 2005
Ibara - 2005
Pink Sweets ~Ibara sorekara~ - 2006
Mushihime-sama Futari - 2006
Muchi-Muchi Pork - 2007
DeathSmiles - 2007
Do-Don-Pachi Dai-Fukkatsu - 2008
DeathSmiles II - 2009 Cave


Cave's original shooting games released between 2009 - 2012:

Akai Katana - 2010


IP's released before 2009 subsequently ported to home systems:

Mushihimesama Futari - 2009 Xbox 360
DeathSmiles - 2009 Xbox 360
Dodonpachi DOJ BL (BLEX) - 2009 Xbox 360
DeathSmiles II - 2010 Xbox 360
Dodonpachi DFK - 2010 Xbox 360
Espgaluda II - 2010 Xbox 360
Ketsui - 2010 Xbox 360
Espgaluda II - ios re-release 2010
Dodonpachi DFK - ios re-release 2010
Guwange - XBLA 2010
MMP/PS - 2011 Xbox 360
DeathSmiles ios re-release 2011
(Mushihimesama) Bug Princess ios re-release 2011
Dodonpachi DOJ - ios re-release 2012
Mushihimesama HD 2012 Xbox 360 re-release

Are Ikeda and Yagawa on a sabbatical or something? What has the creative team actually been doing for the last four years?

[Bananamatic]

They saw HELLSINKER and decided that it's time to slowly retire and let someone more experienced take over the shmup industry

[Skykid]

I just reckon they're taking the piss a bit. Everyone likes a Mushi HD, but it's not the same as getting something fresh. They've spent four years taking advantage of a fanbase who have nothing much else to play and so keep shelling out on the same old (sometimes 13 years old) games, and even across multiple formats.

We're suckers and they know it.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

It'll be interesting to see what new arcade shmup IPs are announced down the road from Cave (aside from the upcoming DDP-SDOJ PCB conversion kit this April 2012). In reality, they won't announce it until the timing is right to generate interest/buzz. That's a given alrighty.

Guess it's time to gather around the developer's table and have a serious discussion as to what new bullet hell arcade titles are possible down the road, right?

In regards to setting up test locations for such prototype arcade games, here are two examples:

Just to give you an idea, back in the early 1980s, Atari Inc. used have random folk come in and try out their newest prototype arcade game offerings (& ask for their opinions/comments/helpful suggestions to improve on them) before releasing them to the arcades. (Of course, some prototype arcade games were made as a very small production run but never released commercially -- i.e. the unreleased single prototype of Atari's 1985 "Nightmare" upright cab comes to mind with it's sliky-smooth 360 degree shooting mechanic + frantic gameplay...it was playable at the 2010 CAX show for the very first time indeed.)

Even Williams used to set aside random test locations for their prototype arcade games and ask arcade gamers their opinions/comment on their games before making the ultimate decision to release them commercially or not (same thing with their prototype pinball games as well).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[spl]

Who can blame them.. they got it right the first time - how can you top Dodonpachi?

[yosai]

how can you top Dodonpachi?

DOJ.

[Skykid]

how can you top Dodonpachi?

DOJ.

Schwing!

[Cagar]

-

[moozooh]

Are Ikeda and Yagawa on a sabbatical or something? What has the creative team actually been doing for the last four years?

Arrange & Black Label modes, DDP SDOJ. Also, that's three years.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

If their both (SDOJ Arrange & BL variants) released in a timely manner, it's all good.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Skykid]

Arrange & Black Label modes, DDP SDOJ. Also, that's three years.

Assuming arranged modes don't take anywhere near as long as developing completely original IP's from scratch, that's not a valid reason.

They managed 3 big releases in 2006, we should be demanding more of that action.

[TLB]

We should be demanding that Atlus release the rights to Esprade.

[Gus]

I think one of the devs mentioned in that SDOJ interview Rancor translated that they were working on it before the 3/11/11 earthquake. Definitely seems like the ports have been cutting into their time.

[Captain]

They saw HELLSINKER and decided that it's time to slowly retire and let someone more experienced take over the shmup industry

[Erppo]

You're only allowed to demand more after you have mastered all their previous games.

[Skykid]

You're only allowed to demand more after you have mastered all their previous games.

You're never going to believe this, but I foresaw saw you posting this exact comment when I put up the OP (minus the smiley, kudos for that. )

We should be demanding that Atlus release the rights to Esprade.

You're really missing the point dude.

[Ed Oscuro]

Haha, for real.

Great Shmups Apocalypse 2012 is in full swing, it seems.

[TLB]

We should be demanding that Atlus release the rights to Esprade.

You're really missing the point dude.

Not really. Ikeda said there are things he could go back to in Esprade. Wouldn't you rather he fixed one of their best games and got it ported? Wouldn't you rather have a sequel to Esprade than another Akai Katana or Mushihimesama Bug Panic? The ideal situation of x number of new/original arcade releases per year doesn't seem likely.

[Ed Oscuro]

Old games > new games, duh

Anyway, you're just agreeing with Skykid, then.

[Erppo]

You're only allowed to demand more after you have mastered all their previous games.

You're never going to believe this, but I foresaw saw you posting this exact comment when I put up the OP (minus the smiley, kudos for that. )

Maybe because it's such a good argument! I seriously doubt anyone here has mastered most of their games so there's still plenty of playing left for everyone. I myself don't really feel the need for any new Cave shmups as long as there are still so many great games left to learn.

[moozooh]

They managed 3 big releases in 2006, we should be demanding more of that action.

One of which had to have a revision due to constrained schedule, another had four or five revisions in total. You're undermining your point by suggesting that rushed development cycle is a good thing for Cave; it has never been.

I'd rather they made one quality game per year that didn't have glaring bugs, early counterstops, or other stupid inconsistencies. They were doing just fine up until 2006, then their quality assurance steadily went downhill with Pink Sweets et al.

[gray117]

hmm... he's CEO right? And cave makes a bunch of stuff I'm not interested in as well as shmups?

I wouldn't be surprised if some horse racing game, or similar, was taking up a lot more time/money/profits ... perhaps not love ... but time...

It probably also talks to phases where it's easier/harder to produce a new shmup game in a certain point in time. What the art staff are doing etc...

In general, you premise that their shmups are more popular than ever is probably bang on, there's been encouraging (albeit not meteoric) rise in popularity of their shmup games. I think this helps continue their shooting game presence, but I don't think it's a trivial process to green light a shmup project.

I also think the development environment that pushes these the conceptual side of these titles is quite fluid; which won't necessarily make for predictable patterns.

After all, imho, the recent emergence of cave shmup games was kick started by deathsmiles which clearly had a production approach flexible enough to encourage ports - and I for one didn't see that coming.

[TLB]

...there's been encouraging (albeit not meteoric) rise in popularity of their shmup games.

Just curious: where did you get this information from?

[Barrakketh]

how can you top Dodonpachi?

Ketsui.

FTFY

[Skykid]

They were doing just fine up until 2006, then their quality assurance steadily went downhill with Pink Sweets et al.

Can't tell whether that's an agreement or not. I really don't see the argument here moozooh, seems a bit like you're clutching at straws just to be argumentative.

The topic isn't really about revisions, 1.5's or Black Labels, and when they slipped into the habit of late bug fixing: the topic is about why development of new IP's has dried up so drastically when all indications point to them being a more substantial company than they were at their genesis.

Everyone likes ports, but I get the feeling Cave don't see much value in creating new IP's when we're all suckers splurging $100's of bucks on Limited Editions of ten year old games; some of which have done the rounds several times already (Mushihimesama/Espgaluda II/DDP DOJ... etc)

If that stuff didn't keep selling (over and over again, from 360 to iOS) they might be in a position where they feel compelled to write new STG software.

[Estebang]

The industry has decided that its future lies in free-to-play, social, and casual mobile games.

Cave's Farmville clone Shirotsuku has been played by over three million people. Angry Birds sold something like 60 million downloads in one day last Christmas. With figures like that, how could anyone at Cave justify continuing full-scale development of shmups, or even shmup ports? I don't think any of the smartphone ports have cracked even 100,000 sales.

[gray117]

...there's been encouraging (albeit not meteoric) rise in popularity of their shmup games.

Just curious: where did you get this information from?

Nothing empirical, but I'd be confident in saying that more westerners than ever before know what deathsmiles/dodonpachi/cave are than in, say, 2004, and that [importantly] more poeple have played one of their games. Following deathsmiles/daifukkatsu pal and general iphone releases there's easily a several fold awareness among people I know... admittedly from a couple of people to tens, small though it may be but it goes in the right direction.

Increased exposure, of course, does not necessarily correlate to sales numbers but it gives you a better chance. Similarly the retail price/volume/distribution/dev costs all play their part in that crazy equation of creating a profitable business - converting awareness into custom ... and there's precious little community management ... but cave's brand popularity certainly increased.

Someone write the shmup poll 2012 and get some clipboarded survey people into the streets stat

[moozooh]

Can't tell whether that's an agreement or not. I really don't see the argument here moozooh, seems a bit like you're clutching at straws just to be argumentative.

The topic isn't really about revisions, 1.5's or Black Labels, and when they slipped into the habit of late bug fixing: the topic is about why development of new IP's has dried up so drastically when all indications point to them being a more substantial company than they were at their genesis.

My point is that what you suggest "demanding" (releasing new games more often) and what you cite as an exemplary release schedule (2006, with three major releases, one of them still being a Black Label) are at odds with making a quality product at release time. The endless cascade of revisions were the result of that practice. Stuff like that wasn't happening, at least not to a comparable extent, when they were releasing "only" 1.3 games per year.

They could be a more substantial company at large, but the shmup-only division most likely didn't grow at all in the last half a decade; there's no economic reason for it to grow when arcade sales keep dwindling as a result of terminal decline of arcade gaming as a whole, and there are more profitable development tasks to pursue.

Everyone likes ports, but I get the feeling Cave don't see much value in creating new IP's when we're all suckers splurging $100's of bucks on Limited Editions of ten year old games; some of which have done the rounds several times already (Mushihimesama/Espgaluda II/DDP DOJ... etc)

If that stuff didn't keep selling (over and over again, from 360 to iOS) they might be in a position where they feel compelled to write new STG software.

Well, it's obvious that if they weren't porting people would be mad at them for that, actually quite more mad than otherwise. But what exactly are you proposing, porting games to consoles AND churning out 2+ original arcade games per year at the same time? I doubt they have enough unoccupied people to do that, and then you'd have even more game-breaking bugs for sure. Please understand that, even if we were in a position to demand anything from a dying business, it definitely shouldn't be something that is really prone to making situation worse for a company who has already done much to soil their reputation with arcade owners.

More importantly though, do you really experience some disturbing lack of Cave releases to play, or is it more of a principle? I, for one, have been postponing MMP, PS, and DFK BL for about a year at this point, just because I'm not yet done with the other twelve Cave games I have access to in some way or form. Not like they're the only shmup developer around, either...

[Skykid]

My point is that what you suggest "demanding" (releasing new games more often) and what you cite as an exemplary release schedule (2006, with three major releases, one of them still being a Black Label) are at odds with making a quality product at release time.

That would only be arguable if this year didn't exist:

Espgaluda II - 2005
Puzzle! Mushihime-tama - 2005
Ibara - 2005

No revisions, all quality products. And technically, Kuro is a remix programmed by a totally different guy, so they managed four games in 06 with zero bug issues.

They could be a more substantial company at large, but the shmup-only division most likely didn't grow at all in the last half a decade; there's no economic reason for it to grow when arcade sales keep dwindling as a result of terminal decline of arcade gaming as a whole, and there are more profitable development tasks to pursue.

So why not make original games for the 360 and release the odd back catalogue port now and then?

But what exactly are you proposing, porting games to consoles AND churning out 2+ original arcade games per year at the same time? I doubt they have enough unoccupied people to do that, and then you'd have even more game-breaking bugs for sure. Please understand that, even if we were in a position to demand anything from a dying business, it definitely shouldn't be something that is really prone to making situation worse for a company who has already done much to soil their reputation with arcade owners.

More importantly though, do you really experience some disturbing lack of Cave releases to play, or is it more of a principle? I, for one, have been postponing MMP, PS, and DFK BL for about a year at this point, just because I'm not yet done with the other twelve Cave games I have access to in some way or form. Not like they're the only shmup developer around, either...

It's not a personal vendetta, just a blank canvas question. I would assume that based on their growth, they could actually afford to create original IP's for console instead of the arcade AND port old games at the same time. I might be wrong about this as it's a completely external viewpoint, but it feels like the company is milking the hell out of a seriously ageing catalogue just because its the easiest thing to do.

That said the back catalogue has pretty much been run dry now. They could re-release Ibara and add Kuro, which would make sense since the PS2 one is crap, and *maybe* Dangun & Esprade at a stretch.

But new IP's would be pleasant.

[brentsg]

360 in Japan is about as dead as arcades.. And Western sales for Cave's shooting games kinda suck.

Seems like a lose-lose situation to me. They're in worse shape than the Bluefin Tuna.