Why this forum hates touhou so much?

[O. Van Bruce]

Or at least, an important part of it... If you claim it to be easy, then give me a Lunatic UFO 1CC, if you claim it to be too "moe" focused then forget about the girls and focus on the gameplay and the game.

This is something that has allways surprised me about this forum, with all the Cave, Raizing and other shmups lovers...

[ZenErik]

I am just not a big fan of the art style or gameplay. I would NOT say they're TERRIBLE, but they are far from greatness in my eyes.

And ZUN's art is terrible. The fan art is cute, but the original art is like that of a four year old. Which is amusing.

There are just a lot of doujin games I greatly prefer over Touhou.

Lets name a few that I have:
Alltynex Second
Crimzon Clover
Diadra Empty
Ether Vapor
RefleX
RefRain: Prism Memories
Samidare
Trouble Witches
etc.

[azinth]

they're too hard ;_;

[Zeether]

I can already see this becoming a good thread.

(btw touhou's good but too popular)

[O. Van Bruce]

Well i've played some of the doujin titles you've mentioned there (and I find increasingly disturbing that you didn't mentioned Hellsinker), but I can say that Touhou can give a fine experience as a shmup in whatever difficulty is set. If you don't like the art, well... is just a guy alone who is making the game... and he doesn't care too much about the art, at least not enough to take some anatomy and drawing lessons so I think the games shouldn't be judge from that point of view...

About the gameplay... well, every touhou gives a different feeling due to the challenges you must face in order to get a high score, some are more rewarding than others while others tend to be very hard (like UFO for instance). So i doubt the gameplay can be generalized

[shmuppyLove]

I think it's the fans?



I joke, but I've never actually played a Touhou game. I just Google Image'd "touhou cosplay" and this was the worst I could find. I don't even know what character that is. Or if it's even Touhou.

In truth, most of the pics were pretty hot.

edit: image link fixed for graet justice

[ZenErik]

Brohou cosplay is hilarious. I've done it before. I don't know what character I was, but I borrowed my friends outfit at Otakon. Trying to fit into her shoes was a challenge. And wearing heels. Ugh!

And like a lot of Touhou fans/cosplayers, she has never played the games. Well, at least she had not until I showed her a few.

[kennyrh]

It's just an acquired taste. Maybe more culturally accessible to the Eastern shmup fans.

I've played a few and wasn't particularly impressed but then i can say that about any sub-genre of shooting games. Take Cave, for instance. Some of their games are brilliant - others decidedly average.

Don't think there's any particular hate vibe for touhou here

[Jeneki]

focus on the gameplay and the game.

Last year I went to 12 conventions. Every single one had at least one Touhou panel, a few had two. Not a single panel talked about the gameplay.

To date, I have never met a Touhou Fan in person who is capable of discussing Touhou gameplay. It's almost hilarious, going to a Touhou panel and asking, "so what's the deal with that gauge thing in Imperishable Night?" and getting nothing but blank stares.

So yea, it's the fans, not the games.

[Never_Scurred]

Youtube

[dunpeal2064]

I have only played a few of the Touhou games, and they were decent. I wasn't a big fan of the non-boss sections of the game, as they felt kinda dull. I was also not a huge fan of the sprites or backgrounds, but thats more of a personal preferrence.

Oh, and aiming at the tiny bosses is weird. It forces you into a specific section of a pattern, where I am used to being able to approach a pattern from all angles, taking it down in my own way.

[ZenErik]

focus on the gameplay and the game.

Last year I went to 12 conventions. Every single one had at least one Touhou panel, a few had two. Not a single panel talked about the gameplay.

To date, I have never met a Touhou Fan in person who is capable of discussing Touhou gameplay. It's almost hilarious, going to a Touhou panel and asking, "so what's the deal with that gauge thing in Imperishable Night?" and getting nothing but blank stares.

So yea, it's the fans, not the games.

Yea. The fans, at least in the US, usually don't actually PLAY the games. A lot of them don't even know what genre the games are or anything. They just know the cute fan art. It's incredible how few people know/have experienced the source material for the fandom they are oh so crazy about.

But hey, they make for cute cosplays on girls and hilarious ones on guys. It is what it is.

[Frederik]

Here are my main reasons I don´t really enjoy Touhou:

-Super-small sprites. All the enemies are the size of thumbnails, everything is just annoyingly tiny. The game just looks way too "zoomed out" for my taste

-Non-threatening, rather boring bullets. The default bullets - those big white dots with colored borders - look way too static (compared to the waving, twisting, throbbing bullets in Mushihimesama for instance).

-Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable Night were pretty fun, but Subterranean Animism for instance felt really odd -
boring first few stages, enemies take ages to kill...

-Dull, repetetive sound effects. They sounds just so weak and tinny, compared to the booming sounds of destruction in Ibara.

-Odd player shots - they have these really transparent look that doesn´t really make me feel like I´m actually attacking with full force.

This being said, I can´t deny I had a few hours of fun with PCB and IN. I´m sure those games have their place when you get really into them, and they´re quite impressive considering only one guy made them.

[Gus]

I just read the hentai doujins.

[SuperSoaker360]

The games are quite nice and I like the presentation. The gameplay itself is a little bland and can get boring after a while and the difficulty is generally easy. When I play Touhou, I feel like I'm playing a regular, casual shoot 'em up. When I want to play a REAL manic shooter, I play DDPDOJ or Ketsui.

Touhou feels like a boss rush with the stages made as fillers for the gaps. It can get quite stale quickly. While there is good and catchy music, cute girls, colourful bullet patterns, and some slight humour, Touhou feels like another typical shmup by my gameplay standards. Some games introduced certain gameplay elements like Supernatural Borders, UFO summoning, and Trance Mode. While these are signature to their game, I do not think they are much of a breakthrough for gameplay innovation. In my opinion, Touhou's best game would have to be 12.8 - Fairy Wars just because of the ice. Now THAT was an original idea that made the game so much more refreshing as you played.

In short, Touhou seems like it's made for the casuals (with the exception of UFO). I enjoy frequent doses of Touhou fandom, but never the actual game - at least not that much anymore. Don't get me wrong, the games are fun but to a very limited extent when compared to other doujinshi games like Crimzon Clover and RefRain: -Prism Memories-.

Now the Touhou fans...? It irritates me if they go around saying Touhou is the hardest or greatest game ever because anyone in their right mind would know that Touhou falls quite short in a lot of gameplay aspects.
Yeah... it's largely because of the fans and their ignorance to shmups in general.

[Frederik]

To date, I have never met a Touhou Fan in person who is capable of discussing Touhou gameplay. It's almost hilarious, going to a Touhou panel and asking, "so what's the deal with that gauge thing in Imperishable Night?" and getting nothing but blank stares.

ARMED POLICE BATRIDER Discussion

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Gain or Miyamoto are definitely much better for her!!!! lol

Guys, don´t talk about Gain like that!!!!! he´s MINE!!! *growls* XD

hey people, dose anybody now where I can Buy a dildo like miyamoto would have? cuz u now hes a dragon an all. Im no perv I swear!!! just tell me were 2 get dis thx

..."After defeating Sobut and Envy together, Chitta and Shorty fell into the grass all out of breath. "whoa dude, that smartbomb was SO kewl!! it was, like, amazing!!!!! can you show me more of ur tricks?" "Sure", whispered Chitta. "I can show u a very special smartbomb i´ve been saving for this special moment actually.....!!!!!!!" "B...b...but w...we...we shouldn´t be doin this!!! it´s so...WRONG!!!"

[Erppo]

It irritates me if they go around saying Touhou is the hardest or greatest game ever because anyone in their right mind would know that Touhou falls quite short in a lot of gameplay aspects.

I don't, could you please elaborate.

Parts of your post make very little sense considering Touhou goes well above the average arcade difficulty on the highest setting and has gameplay depth easily comparable to Cave games. Furthermore people usually don't expect groundbreaking gameplay innovations from their shmups and many well liked games aren't innovative in the slightest.

[Jeneki]

ARMED POLICE BATRIDER Discussion

Haha, nice one.

Real Deathsmiles conversation from a meetup a few years ago:

Me: "So why is everyone playing Casper? Is the boomerang thing really powerful?"

Player 1: "No, they just want to rape her."

[z0mbie90]

The fans are perverts!!!!! The games are meh!
But I do like some of the music

[Skykid]

The art sucks

The fans suck

The dramah storylines are an intellectual affront

Otherwise they're perfectly playable and fairly fun games.

[Despatche]

Every single time we have one of these threads, 90% of the content is pure shit. I think SuperSoaker360's post is one of the worst things I've ever seen on this forum, though.

edit: 1. i'm getting tired of defending zun's art 2. the fans don't matter 3. this doesn't even happen, you are not the 10% today skykid

[SuperSoaker360]

I don't, could you please elaborate.

Parts of your post make very little sense considering Touhou goes well above the average arcade difficulty on the highest setting and has gameplay depth easily comparable to Cave games. Furthermore people usually don't expect groundbreaking gameplay innovations from their shmups and many well liked games aren't innovative in the slightest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rqJltfJMcA
In his description he states that it is his opinion, but I doubt he's even played MushiFutari like he claims.

Touhou's highest setting is Lunatic mode which would mean that the game obviously tries to make an effort to be harder than the average arcade difficulty. However, I find that difficulty can account to a number of different things. Some may go for scoring and others may focus on survival. My main focus is on survival and when compared in the total amount of practice you would need to 1CC Touhou as opposed to 1CCing a different shmup, I think Touhou would take less amount of practice time.

Gameplay depth is debatable. I preferably like to look for gimmicks that spice up my gameplay experience a little bit to keep things different. However, I don't see as much gameplay depth in Touhou as I do in Cave's games. In my opinion, Touhou seems simpler to me.
Ehh, the blessing and curse of having different minds.

[dunpeal2064]

Every single time we have one of these threads, 90% of the content is pure shit. I think SuperSoaker360's post is one of the worst things I've ever seen on this forum, though.

edit: 1. i'm getting tired of defending zun's art 2. the fans don't matter 3. this doesn't even happen, you are not the 10% today skykid

Defending ZUN's art? Why? Are my eyes less capable of veiwing art? I mean... I can see it... and its not really my taste. I don't think you could change that.

Art isn't like gameplay. A lot of crap talked about the gameplay is probably from people that aren't too familiart with the series, and are just talking crap. However, the art style doesn't have depth. I don't need to give the game hours of my time to see that it has poor art.

[Despatche]

that video is indeed trash, but means nothing

"gameplay depth" is not debatable in any sense of the term/s

1CCs also mean very very little

edit: dunpeal you just defended it for me and you'll probably never know how, thanks (holy crap "the art style doesn't have depth, thus it's poor" might even be worse than that post up there)

[dunpeal2064]

that video is indeed trash, but means nothing

"gameplay depth" is not debatable in any sense of the term/s

1CCs also mean very very little

edit: dunpeal you just defended it for me and you'll probably never know how, thanks (holy crap "the art style doesn't have depth" might even be worse than that post up there)

I think you took what I was trying to say wrong. "Teh art not having depth" was more to the tune of the enjoyment of art being completely opinionated.

If I said I don't like the gameplay, it would mean very little, as I have very little experience with the games. I would just be talking crap out of my ass.

However, the art is just that. Art. I was not saying that Touhous art lacks depth, but that art in general can be viewed without having to play the games for hours, whereas to judge the gameplay, I would have to put more time into it.

Art is art, and some will like it, and some will not. I was just curious why you would "defend" art, just because someone doesn't agree with you.

Unless your defense was "Some people will like art, and some won't". I suppose that would be a valid defense.

But sure, just say my posts are trash and bring nothing else to the table while I try to have a decent conversation with you, that will make your point

EDIT: looking at it, I wrote that wrong, and it looks to mean "The art style doesn't have depth" I meant to write :art styles don't have depth, at least not in the same way gameplay does" I was not trying to say that its lack of depth made it poor, just that I don't like it.

[Despatche]

oh, i'm sorry. however, i will say it would have been a decent conversation if you just said the second-to-last sentence right above my post here. pretty much everything else you've said seems like you're in an argument that hasn't happened yet.

the thing is that disliking zun art isn't the issue, it's the hive mind that causes most of it. shit like "hurr durr it looks like a 4yo drew this" when everyone does that because everyone does that is beyond hyperbole, it's trolling or sheer ignorance. it's literally impossible to understand fact and opinion these days and people love to abuse this whenever they can, and it seems i'm the only god damned person in this whole world who publicly cares.

[SuperSoaker360]

that video is indeed trash, but means nothing

"gameplay depth" is not debatable in any sense of the term/s

1CCs also mean very very little

Ahhh, I see where this is going now. I guess my posts were waaaay too biased to my own opinion so I apologise for mixing in my thoughts and making them seem like it was fact. That was definitely not my intention.

But could you explain what you mean by 1CCs meaning "very little" because I don't actually follow.

[Despatche]

now we're getting somewhere. thank you.

1CCs don't mean as much as people want them to. they're just the first step, and some people (me) don't even like playing games for raw 1CCs. it's kind of a half-and-half thing: you really should be scoring well and making sure the game's complete. i would personally rate 1CCs as being less than half for certain reasons but that doesn't really matter.

[RNGmaster]

The games are quite nice and I like the presentation. The gameplay itself is a little bland and can get boring after a while and the difficulty is generally easy. When I play Touhou, I feel like I'm playing a regular, casual shoot 'em up. When I want to play a REAL manic shooter, I play DDPDOJ or Ketsui.

>calls touhou casual
>no ufo lunatic 1ccs

At least play the games you're disparaging, rather than sticking to the "CAVE is so awesome and i can't play touhou because it sux and the fans suck" orthodoxy that seems to infect half the people on this forum. In short:

...when compared in the total amount of practice you would need to 1CC Touhou as opposed to 1CCing a different shmup, I think Touhou would take less amount of practice time.

That's your problem.

And about the problem with stages, ZUN said in a recent blog post "I know why people play my games anyways, [and that's why I made 10D so easy]." His hands are tied. No matter what direction he wants to take Touhou, the fans will always want more of the same - more lolis, more flashy pretty spellcards, less difficult stages. He didn't create Lunatic Red and the "Touhou Is Superior" orthodoxy - the fanbase did.

[Despatche]

of course, the above may or may not prove "touhou is casual", at least new touhou. i feel bad for zun.

edit: way too much editing going on here, how many people are in this thread?