Cave SH3 Emulation scoring legimitacy.

[Kaiser]

I think this topic should be brought up since everyone seems to be silent about it. Problem being, nobody can figure if the SH3 emulators should be allowed in the scoreboards or not... for time being, I just would suggest adding in seperate MAME scoreboards because of lack of proper slowdown emulation yet (which will TAKE a while!). Question being, should the "slowpoke" builds be allowed for scoreboards (AS I SAID seperate mame scoreboards will solve potential legimitacy issues) or no?

I for one say yes, under a condition that scoreboard owners will add MAME tables to their score threads.

[AntiFritz]

Everyone would have to set the blitter delay to the the same for the game and make sure it runs 100% at all times.

[Vamos]

Aye either agree a blitter rate for each game or seperate table for no slowdown at all . The yagawa games dont need any changes just leave at default 50% as the games run fullspeed minus the speed bumps at stage beginning anyway which has no effect on scoring ability and obviously that everyones pc is running them at 100% .

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Well Ibara is obviously acceptable as PS2 port accepted and that is just as screwed up. Don't know about the others.

[Vamos]

Well Ibara is obviously acceptable as PS2 port accepted and that is just as screwed up. Don't know about the others.

This is true thing is for people like me who have only played ps2 port of ibara no slowdown is what im used to, im not even sure ibara has slowdown in many places that even matter? and if ACR can get z scores on the ps2 port then im sure we can all improve and get good scores in mame , my best is currently a C score.

[Dave_K.]

I don't see the problem. Most (if not all) scoreboards should already indicate scores were obtained on Console or Mame or PCB. Unless you are saying you are wanting to break down Mame into sub-categories of questionable builds?

[brentsg]

I don't see the point if they've already been removed from MAME. It's not like the SH3 stuff has been perfected, and it obviously won't be now. Will the scores between one build and another even be comparable? Is performance between one person's PC and another comparable?

[Vamos]

I don't see the point if they've already been removed from MAME. It's not like the SH3 stuff has been perfected, and it obviously won't be now. Will the scores between one build and another even be comparable? Is performance between one person's PC and another comparable?

herp derp.

[brentsg]

I don't see the point if they've already been removed from MAME. It's not like the SH3 stuff has been perfected, and it obviously won't be now. Will the scores between one build and another even be comparable? Is performance between one person's PC and another comparable?

herp derp.

Care to explain yourself instead of be a moron?

I've scanned the thread and people seem to be getting vastly different performance based on their hardware, which isn't typical of older games that are emulated better. In that sense how can the scores be compared?

[kernow]

Care to explain yourself instead of be a moron?

You do realise you're talking to Vamos right?

[Paradigm]

I don't see the point if they've already been removed from MAME. It's not like the SH3 stuff has been perfected, and it obviously won't be now. Will the scores between one build and another even be comparable? Is performance between one person's PC and another comparable?

Agree.

[Erppo]

I vote no, and I don't really consider any scores done with the current state of the emulaion legit. The reasons for this have been explained already: the slowdown emulation is not properly done yet and most people seem to be running the games at under 100% emulation speed in at least some places. This is very different from all the older Mame games that can usually be considered same as the real thing for scoring purposes.

[IseeThings]

If things are running too fast I'd say they're legitimate, as the game is actually _harder_ than a real PCB, so you're not going to be beating real PCB scores with the emulators unless you're actually a better player.

If they're running with TOO MUCH slowdown, then obviously they're invalid, as they're easier than the PCB making it possible to obtain higher scores with greater ease under emulation.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I also agree. If you don't have the slowdown(what blitter setting is that anyway), then there's no reason to disqualify aa score. If you're having more slowdown than the PCB or an official port, then yeah, there's a problem.

But if you're running any of these at 100%, even without slowdown, I'd consider the score legit.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

There's a difficulty and memorization to dealing with the time when the slowdown goes away and things suddenly speed back up. I've died a hundred times because of it on the real boards. Not having the correct slowdown is simply not the same game, but neither is comparing scores between game revisions where enemy patterns were tweaked either. Nobody ever mentions that but it's reality.

[Kaiser]

I also agree. If you don't have the slowdown(what blitter setting is that anyway), then there's no reason to disqualify aa score. If you're having more slowdown than the PCB or an official port, then yeah, there's a problem.

But if you're running any of these at 100%, even without slowdown, I'd consider the score legit.

That's why I settle for least slowdown possible and keep it. Because I can run those games fine without a drop in perfomance.

[Elixir]

The scores obviously aren't legit as the games play entirely different to their PCB and port counterparts.

I don't see the point in giving scoreboard maintainers even more work.

[mjclark]

I vote no, and I don't really consider any scores done with the current state of the emulaion legit. The reasons for this have been explained already: the slowdown emulation is not properly done yet and most people seem to be running the games at under 100% emulation speed in at least some places. This is very different from all the older Mame games that can usually be considered same as the real thing for scoring purposes.

+1
I'm nowhere near a good enough player to get on any of the CAVE boards here but even a scant look at the "Too Close For Comfort The Revival " thread shows that not only is the SH3 emulation not accurate but also that the emulation speeds are varying for each game for each player depending on their specific hardware setup, meaning that scores achieved in these games by different players are not comparible QED

[hwl]

Cant the same argument be applied to ALL emulation? best stop all mame because it runs differently on diff setups? obviously if your pc isnt powerful enough for 100% speed no its not legit thats a given and that applys to all emulation and thats exactly the case with sh3. on default blitter rate everybody period with a powerful enough pc gets 100% speed all the time without slowdown and the yagawa games slowdown in the same places which do not effect anything related to score .Like iseethings states its actually harder to 1cc with no slowdown so whats the problem? Ibara is IDENTICAL to the ps2 port on mame ive played them both side by side. If you guys want to get really pedantic on the accuracy of emulation topic well we could be here a long time . No slowdown ftw .

Agreed.
IMO, as long as the games are running with no less than 100%, scores achieved using MAME should be fine.

€: uhm, what happend to Vamos' post? :X

[Vamos]

I deleted that post fearing the usual sausage fest from the slowdown nazis lol, but aye i stand behind it as you reposted .

[Erppo]

No slowdown just means you're playing a different game. Nothing wrong with that if you enjoy it, but don't go comparing scores with the other game. Also have fun with Ultra without slowdown.

[mjclark]

Cant the same argument be applied to ALL emulation? best stop all mame because it runs differently on diff setups? obviously if your pc isnt powerful enough for 100% speed no its not legit thats a given and that applys to all emulation and thats exactly the case with sh3.

For the vast majority of users on this forum and really everyone whose specs>PIII, the vast majority of shmups in MAME will run at 100% and give legitimate comparable scores. Same goes for the Genesis and Turbografx emulation.
But this is not the case for the SH3 games. This isn't some pedantic argument - there's virtually no-one reporting 100% on the SH3 games and everyone who's playing them is reporting different speeds.

[Vamos]

But the people who are getting 100%? I dont know who cares i get 100% so im gonna play it regardless , pinksweets ftw.I think you are confusing the different speeds with people changing the blitter delay though as like i said everyone with a powerful enough pc gets identical performance .

[mjclark]

But the people who are getting 100%? I dont know who cares i get 100% so im gonna play it regardless , pinksweets ftw.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention- I didn't think anybody was getting 100% on Pink Sweets or MMP.
Will the SH3 hundredpercenters please stand up?

[Vamos]

But the people who are getting 100%? I dont know who cares i get 100% so im gonna play it regardless , pinksweets ftw.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention- I didn't think anybody was getting 100% on Pink Sweets or MMP.
Will the SH3 hundredpercenters please stand up?

It slowdowns ever so briefly at the beginning of stage 1 barely at all on slowpoke build and on a couple midbosses and as i said AGAIN its not in any areas which would effect scoring in anyway .Also if you think everyone emulates mame at fullspeed maybe you cannot remember the STGT 2 years ago where a particular player submitted very high score inps for cyvern and was found to be running it at like 60% or something stupid then claimed to have not realised lol so aye dont be so sure that everyone can run old mame stuff. If you think the brief stage loading on yagawa sh3 games is game breaking then maybe you should take a look at the mmp port which is missing 20% of the slowdown and need i mention the mushi and ibara ports , are we saying that because its a port its instantly legit? where do you draw the line here .I fail to see how shit inaccurate ports are more credible then shit inaccurate emulation .Ibara is the exception btw it doesnt dip AT ALL just like the ps2 port .Just to clarify i only really play Ibara/kuro and pink sweets on sh3 i dont like the mushi series at all but common sense dictates that a game like ultra is not suited for no slowdown but for yagawas games i really dont see no slowdown as a concern (3 seconds of stage loading doesnt count lol). Garegga on FBA btw removes all slowdown .

[mjclark]

It slowdowns ever so briefly at the beginning of stage 1 barely at all on slowpoke build and on a couple midbosses.

So there actually isn't anybody running this at 100% then is there?

Also if you think are we saying that because its a port its instantly legit? where do you draw the line here .I fail to see how shit inaccurate ports are more credible then shit inaccurate emulation .Ibara is the

Doh! The same port played on the same console by different players will give legitimately comparible scores (although for sure not comparible to the PCB in any way). The SH3 games played in MAME on a different hardware setup by each player will play at appreciably different rates for each player meaning that the scores cannot be compared in a meaningful way.
This isn't the case for most of the other MAME shmups.
I would've thought that these points were self-evident...

[hwl]

I just don't see how those slight differences between setups that are capable of running these games at 100% speed most of the time make the achieved scores uncomparable. The differences between Shmupmame and "normal" MAME are vastly superior when it comes to comparing accomplishments, still both are allowed in the Hi Scores section and STGT (afaik). Same goes for hardware like screen, input methods etc. For scores to be absolutely comparable they must be achieved on the same machine. It's just not possible and that's fine. Why nitpick when it's not necessary?

[Vyxx]

Might as well just take a poll.

Opening any topic like this will just cause teh drama.

[Paradigm]

I just don't see how those slight differences between setups that are capable of running these games at 100% speed most of the time make the achieved scores uncomparable. The differences between Shmupmame and "normal" MAME are vastly superior when it comes to comparing accomplishments, still both are allowed in the Hi Scores section and STGT (afaik).

Eh? It removes one frame of input lag. One frame.

It's a nice little advantage but saying it's a much bigger difference that the games themselves running at wildly varying speeds across different setups and missing slowdown altogether - bitch please.

An inaccurate port may not be ideal, but everyone who plays it experiences the exact same game. The same can not be said here.

Until the games are running properly and the playing field is level, they shouldn't even be considered for score IMO.

[mjclark]

I just don't see how those slight differences between setups that are capable of running these games at 100% speed most of the time make the achieved scores uncomparable. The differences between Shmupmame and "normal" MAME are vastly superior when it comes to comparing accomplishments, still both are allowed in the Hi Scores section and STGT (afaik). Same goes for hardware like screen, input methods etc. For scores to be absolutely comparable they must be achieved on the same machine. It's just not possible and that's fine. Why nitpick when it's not necessary?

You're right that arguing about input lag and screensize is nitpicking and that discussion has been had elsewhere, but this argument is about emulation speed.
If there were to be a MAME scoreboard for MMP or Pink Sweets, every person who submitted a score would be running the game at <100% and the variance between rates for each player would be several percent. Each player would experience a different rate of unintentional slowdown again varying by several percent.
This is not the case for any of the other MAME scoreboards on this forum as far as I'm aware
If you think that constitutes a level playing field then go ahead and make some SH3 scoreboards but it surely doesn't sound right to me

Might as well just take a poll.
Opening any topic like this will just cause teh drama.

Wise words indeed - let's have a poll and put an end to this nonsense!