Does anyone find chaining fun?

[Skykid]

Before you say it, I would have said the same thing a little while ago. Categorically no, it's a pain the ass.

However, by actually leaving DOJ in my cab for more than 2 days (in an effort to finally beat it) I've started to pick up the chaining bit by bit. I can chain the first stage quite regularly and it finally got me over 100mil, which was nice, and I'm getting better at stages 2 and 3 (first half), I'm just endeavouring to bridge the little gaps that cause me to keep dropping it.

What's weird is, getting the chain right is quite... fun. If I'm honest, learning to chain from the beginning is infuriating and horrible, because getting a feel for the timing and using shot & laser is painful, but once I hit the groove it's a bit like figuring out how to combo in King of Fighters or something.
It's a big time rush to chain a whole stage, so I have no regrets so far (I would never intend to chain the game entire, that's madness, I just wanted a better score.)

Anyone else find chaining to actually be quite fun?

[kernow]

It's fun when you nail a section and get it right more often than not, but I find it incredibly rigid and boring. Basically playing the game the exact same way every time, you're going to tire of it quicker imo. At least with something like ketsui it's more free flow and you can pretty much play it differently every time.

I love the donpachi series but I doubt I'd own one again, DOJ BL makes it a little fun by being a bit more lenient, well it feels that way anyway. Normal DOJ, ugh, ughhh.

So no, chaining is not what I consider fun, I don't ever plan to get good at it because it'd ruin my enjoyment of the game - it's more something I have a go at and if I can't do it, oh well - if I do manage it, I doubt I will on that section next time. It sucks that in DOJ you're completely fucked if you don't chain, as far as getting any kind of decent score goes - you can get to level 4 with 10 million still - lol. Not great for getting extends.

[Bananamatic]

DFK chaining looks decent

DDP and DOJ doesn't

[professor ganson]

I find it incredibly rigid and boring. Basically playing the game the exact same way every time, you're going to tire of it quicker imo.

I can see this if we're thinking about the DonPachi series (the first thing that comes to mind for many of us with utterance of the word "chaining"), but chaining in Gunbird 2-- while a bit frustrating/tedious-- is part of what makes it fun to go back and improve one's score.

Of course, others will think first of Ikaruga or RSG. That's for the hardcore.

And yet others will think about old-school chaining that requires killing every enemy on screen, as in Zanac Neo or the end of level bonus in Viper Phase 1.

And others will think about medal chaining in Battle Garegga etc...

All of these cause frustration, which isn't fun. But when you pull it off well, it can be hugely gratifying (which isn't the same as fun). So my answer: chaining systems are not fun exactly, but they can be rather gratifying in giving you a real sense of accomplishment.

[Icarus]

Daifukkatsu 1.5 > Daioujou WL/BL

[professor ganson]

In spite of what I said above, I have to say that chaining in Everyday Shooter is pretty damn fun.

[kernow]

I find it incredibly rigid and boring. Basically playing the game the exact same way every time, you're going to tire of it quicker imo.

I can see this if we're thinking about the DonPachi series (the first thing that comes to mind for many of us with utterance of the word "chaining"), but chaining in Gunbird 2-- while a bit frustrating/tedious-- is part of what makes it fun to go back and improve one's score.

Of course, others will think first of Ikaruga or RSG. That's for the hardcore.

And yet others will think about old-school chaining that requires killing every enemy on screen, as in Zanac Neo or the end of level bonus in Viper Phase 1.

And others will think about medal chaining in Battle Garegga etc...

All of these cause frustration, which isn't fun. But when you pull it off well, it can be hugely gratifying (which isn't the same as fun). So my answer: chaining systems are not fun exactly, but they can be rather gratifying in giving you a real sense of accomplishment.

I enjoy medal chaining, find it a lot more fun than enemy chaining, more manageable and not as rigid, but it can be incredibly frustrating, even more so than enemy chaining as I never expect to be able to pull that off anyway.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

I am one of those guys who started playing shmups after watching the "HARDEST BOSS OF ALL TIME!!!!11!11" youtube video. After finding out that this game was arcade only back in the day, I google'd what else this company made and found out about mame. I felt in love with DoDonPachi and played it for almost two years straight but I never played it for score because the chaining was just a huge pain in the ass. I could never understand what you guys like about scoring systems because playing for score in DoDonPachi felt like work to me and had nothing to do with fun and I was too inexperienced in this genre to even understand the scoring in a game like ESP Ra.De. or Progear. I thought Dangun was ok, but the whole style of the game turned me off. It was after playing Ketsui that I truely discovered how much fun a good scoring system is. Finally I got my Futari copy for Xbox and still to this day I think this is the best game with the best scoring system I've ever played (Maniac).

Basically I think that a chaining mechanic like in Futari or Ketsui, where you chain for a short period of time and can catch a little breath in between, is nice, but a game where you must chain through the whole level is just not fun at all and very frustrating. Guwange has a very forgiving chaining system, which I find ok, but it doesn't feel like a shooter to me, more like a like puzzle game with shooter elements. Which is not a bad thing, variety is the spice of life.

[Skykid]

I totally get why chaining is an instantly off putting prospect.

Although Icarus demonstrated hyperless chaining for me, I actually found the chaining in DOJ compared to Donpachi less tough because you can hyper bridge (which is also pretty fun as it sort of provides a few seconds of respite.)

But even though you have to essentially follow a route rigidly, it's surprising how many variations there are. Watching other people's vids is really interesting as they have quite different methods to me (and I didn't initially think it was possible to have so many routes - a testament to good design perhaps.)

Perhaps it's just the accomplishment of a decent chain that suddenly made it way more enjoyable. Compared to where I was originally I feel it's actually quite a decent addition to the game. My main problem now is that it's just too hard in later levels for mere mortals to even have a hope in hell. I'll be lucky to chain stage 2 - anything beyond that is really out the window.

This is all DOJ of course, chaining in RSG, Ikaruga etc I just can't comment on. I always hated that too.

[Dan Hibiki]

I do.

I actually like more the chaining in DDP than in DOJ. DOJ is much more strict and one mistake can cause you to not get the Hyper you were expecting and things usually go completely downhill then. DOJ being much more difficult doesn't help either

But what I really like about chaining is that it is the easiest way to see if you're doing the right path. Any other kind of scoring method doesn't allow you to visualize so easily if you're in the right direction or not. In Espgaluda, for example, I never know if I should have waited a little more before killing that enemy or if that place in the stage is the perfect spot to activate the Kakusei mode. And even if I do know that, sometimes it can be hard to know if you pulled it off or not...

I can't really say much about the DFK chaining because I only own the iOS port and I don't worry too much about it while playing that.

But every scoring system is rigid in the end because there is one path that is going to maximize your score (with maybe one or two alternative paths that could be comparable), the thing with chaining is that it just makes it easier to discover what this path is.

[Zaarock]

chaining in RSG

This is more like playing with "pacifism" and not strict: you just only kill red enemies apart from a couple select parts.

The memorization then becomes killing everything effectively as possible without missing enemies, but the penalty for missing a couple is small because it doesn't break your chain. Getting a decent score is pretty easy apart from the final stage where the chaining is way way harder and more lucrative than anywhere else in the game.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Chaining sucks in general. I will chain stage 1 of DOJ though because it's easy for me now though 1 spot will usually break my chain in WL, but outside of that, I don't bother. Medal chaining is kind of okay though.


I don't play DOJ for score, and I won't play DFK for score. I have enough fun with DOJ and will likely have fun with DFK trying to dodge stuff and seeing how far I can get.

[Paradigm]

The vast majority of people on this forum who hate chaining do so because they can't be arsed to put any time in to learning the game (which is fine), so they say it sucks because they suck (which isn't fine). Case in point; Chaos Phoenixnoob above.

Is it fun dropping that combo on a fighter 100 times in a row while you're learning it? It is to me, yeah, cos you see yourself progressing. Then when you can pull it off consistently that's where the satisfaction comes in, same with chaining levels on DDP. You get out what you put in, simple as that.

It makes me laugh when people complain about its rigidity. Every shooter is rigid if you're playing it right.

[Leandro]

I do. It was fun learning to chain the first two stages with shotia... Now I'll wait until I get an arcade stick to continue playing this game, my 90's pc gameport pad isn't cutting anymore

[kernow]

The vast majority of people on this forum who hate chaining do so because they can't be arsed to put any time in to learning the game (which is fine), so they say it sucks because they suck (which isn't fine). Case in point; Chaos Phoenixnoob above.

Is it fun dropping that combo on a fighter 100 times in a row while you're learning it? It is to me, yeah, cos you see yourself progressing. Then when you can pull it off consistently that's where the satisfaction comes in, same with chaining levels on DDP. You get out what you put in, simple as that.

It makes me laugh when people complain about its rigidity. Every shooter is rigid if you're playing it right.

Alright love we've all had a drink.

[Vamos]

In regards to ddp and ddp doj nope , i learnt to to full chain doj stages 1 2 half of 3 and most of 4 and never once felt it satisfying . Its a shame as i love doj but chaining is not for me unless its done differently .

[Chaos Phoenixma]

It's not necessarily the system sucks. I should have just said there's so much better scoring systems out there that are funner to learn and play. And obviously, if you're going to focus on scoring, it's better to do it on just games with similar scoring systems that you find enjoyable.

[MathU]

Learning to chain stage 1 of Dodonpachi is interesting the first time because you can restart the level relatively quickly and keep trying until you get it, but by the later stages practicing the rote memorization and trial-and-error required is just an exercise in tedium. I do not enjoy enemy chaining in any CAVE game, Ikaruga, or Battle Bakraid.

I do, however, love medal chaining, bullet chaining in Chaos Field, item chaining in Mars Matrix, and even Quick Shot/bonus chains in the Raiden Fighters series.

[Skykid]

The vast majority of people on this forum who hate chaining do so because they can't be arsed to put any time in to learning the game (which is fine), so they say it sucks because they suck (which isn't fine). Case in point; Chaos Phoenixnoob above.

Well, yes and no. I see what you're saying, but at the same time it doesn't surprise me when folk find the strictness of DOJ's chaining unreasonable when other scoring systems (like Futari, Galuda and Ketsui) are a lot easier to ingratiate yourself with.
It's not the same as building your score in Galuda, where you can see it gradually improving with each successive go.

What I found most interesting is that getting over the hump with chaining was less painful than I thought it would be. There's definitely a mental barrier surrounding it that makes you apprehensive to even bother to try, but a few days of practice as a matter of course and it started to piece together quite quickly. For some reason I keep likening it in my head to learning SNK fighting maneuvers and combos after coming from SFII...

[Eaglet]

Chaining in the first DDP can get a bit too anal for my tastes. Combining the relative free form of the aimed bullets with super strict chaining gets a bit too... disjointed for my tastes.
That being said, full chaining stages in DDP is a great feeling.
Absolutely love medal chaining. Especially when you run into those fuckin' choke points in Yagawa-games (hello beginning of Garegga stage 6).
It's a shame that not all Raizing games feature the Batrider-"NOOOOOO!" when you drop a 10k medal.

[Erppo]

Yes.

[Dave_K.]

Chaining is not mandatory, its for advanced players as a challenge to further increase their score. A beginner or mediocre player trying to play at an advanced level is sure to hate chaining. Advanced players on the other hand don't hate chaining, but find it tedious in making incremental score increases.

[Skykid]

Chaining is not mandatory, its for advanced players as a challenge to further increase their score. A beginner or mediocre player trying to play at an advanced level is sure to hate chaining. Advanced players on the other hand don't hate chaining, but find it tedious in making incremental score increases.

Sure, but you can make the same differentiation with any shmup with a scoring system. There's always the option to chase score or just play for survival, it's just DDP style chaining is pretty obtuse compared to most stuff (and most of Cave's stuff).

I'm just surprised it's so liberating once you get a feel for it - but then perhaps it's no more liberating than pulling off a better score in any shmup.

[Erppo]

Chaining is not mandatory, its for advanced players as a challenge to further increase their score. A beginner or mediocre player trying to play at an advanced level is sure to hate chaining. Advanced players on the other hand don't hate chaining, but find it tedious in making incremental score increases.

Umm, so who likes it then?

---

Only problem I see with the standard chaining systems is that they are not very well suited for intermediate level scoring. For higher levels they provide a really unique and revarding challenge, even though it could be argued that every game eventually becomes a DDP at the highest levels.

I have put a bit of time to every DDP and I think the system has clearly evolved to the better in every new game. The first DDP has really not that much depth, it's just all pure execution. DOJ makes it lot more complex with the hypers and the strategy surrounding their distribution and DFK adds a whole new layer to it, making the planning of the scoring strategy pretty free by allowing you to choose the level of risk and reward you wish to take (and making it a lot more accessible to intermediate level play too).

My main problem now is that it's just too hard in later levels for mere mortals to even have a hope in hell.

I have to say I don't like this attitude. There's nothing special in the people who learned to fully chain those games. They did that through hours and hours of hard work and not because they were somehow "special" from birth.

[Skykid]

My main problem now is that it's just too hard in later levels for mere mortals to even have a hope in hell.

I have to say I don't like this attitude. There's nothing special in the people who learned to fully chain those games. They did that through hours and hours of hard work and not because they were somehow "special" from birth.

Er, don't take that so literally dude, I don't mean only people a sixth sense can do it, but it takes an extraordinary amount of time, dedication and patience beyond that of most ardent gamers.

[BIL]

It's a shame that not all Raizing games feature the Batrider-"NOOOOOO!" when you drop a 10k medal.

Rivalled only by the Dangun Feveron announcer's "NAWWW!" upon a Game Over.

[Erppo]

My main problem now is that it's just too hard in later levels for mere mortals to even have a hope in hell.

I have to say I don't like this attitude. There's nothing special in the people who learned to fully chain those games. They did that through hours and hours of hard work and not because they were somehow "special" from birth.

Er, don't take that so literally dude, I don't mean only people a sixth sense can do it, but it takes an extraordinary amount of time, dedication and patience beyond that of most ardent gamers.

I'm not taking it that literally, but I just meant I see it as same as saying "only the Japanese can get that good" or something dumb like that. My view is that that kind of attitude is just people making excuses when there's really nothing but hard work between them and the best. You're right in the patience part though, that's probably the sinlge most important quality in really good players.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Some people are more likely to get them down quicker though. And people do have their limits, as saying that anyone could 1cc some of the harder stuff is just ridiculous. I would probably never even get close to 1ccing something like Ketsui Ura, Futari Ultra, etc. even if I spent many many hours on it.


BTW, when Skykid's saying he wants to beat DOJ, is he talking about WL or BL, 1-all or 2-all, 1 round or 2 round?

To be honest, a DOJ 2-all looks more doable to me than Ketsui Ura or Futari Ultra, but I'd likely never have the skill to pull it off in either version. Even if I somehow no missed to Hibachi, which would be extremely unlikely, DOJ Hibachi is pretty damn tough, and I can't read any of the patterns. I haven't even practiced the loop as I don't have savestates for it, though I know I could theoretically NMNB the first, it's still not likely at the moment. I need to setup savestates for a 2 round game though so I can practice BL's loop.

[Nick420]

Yup, me, it's my favourite lol.

However I can also sicken myself to the point of not playing any chaining shmups for long periods of time. I have had to completely brake away from ddp because I just couldn't handle the rage quit and restartitis I was getting. I kept fucking up my hand from slaming the arcade stick so hard lol. I'm starting to get to the point where I can think about facing it again lol.
For me the satisfaction from full chaining a stage perfectly is second to none. And when you finally get to a point where you are full chaining, no missing, alot of stages in a row in a game, it's just so much fun.

[third_strike]

After a successful full chain I feel myself "A PICA DAS GALAXIAS".