Retro consoles and video capturing set up

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:36 am

I did a bit of searching and seem to be getting mixed opinions on the best way to capture video from retro consoles (specific consoles I'm interested in are Super Famicom, PC Engine Duo-R (RGB modded), Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, PS1, PS2, MVS and some JAMMA PCB's).

I initially bought a Hauppauge HD PVR thinking it would work with a bit of SCART to Component conversion here and there but it seems that is not the case as the HD PVR struggles with these consoles or something along those lines. I've got some additional kit in the way of the CGA/VGA scaler PCB, Sync Strike, MAK Strike, SLG 3000 etc but not sure how any of that can help really.

What I'm seeing now is I'd need to look in to buying an XRGB-3 and a DVDO Edge to get working on these systems. That's a bit OTT for me (in terms of cost). Is there any alternative methods of capturing from these consoles using the HD PVR at a lower outlay?

Interested to receive your thoughts on this. Thanks.

speedlolita · Post by **speedlolita** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:03 am

I imagine the HD PVR requires at LEAST 480p. So you'd need to upscale the 240p/480i to 480p - at least - for the equipment to see them.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:07 am

Not exactly the answer you might be looking for, but I capture all my pre-HD console footage (Famicom, MVS, PS1, PS2, etc. all of which output RGB) with a DVD recorder that captures RGB. End result is pretty damn gorgeous, you can check my site for examples and a bit more info on the recording process.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:14 am

Hmm so in effect the CGA/VGA scaler can be put to use here? Though the problem then arises with getting all of that to a component out to the HD PVR component input? This I assume is where the DVDO Edge comes in?

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:16 am

Ghegs wrote:Not exactly the answer you might be looking for, but I capture all my pre-HD console footage (Famicom, MVS, PS1, PS2, etc. all of which output RGB) with a DVD recorder that captures RGB. End result is pretty damn gorgeous, you can check my site for examples and a bit more info on the recording process.

I was contemplating that, but then you have to rip the DVD and re-encode no? Thanks for the advice though, i'll be sure to check out your website.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:23 am

Pyongyang wrote:I was contemplating that, but then you have to rip the DVD and re-encode no?

You do, and that's when you tweak the footage to your liking (trim out the unnecessary parts, adjust brightness and contrast, and so forth). It's not much of a hassle, just takes a bit more time to get at the final movie file.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:58 am

It's really a question of how much additional money you want to spend. You can of course buy a XRGB and/or an Edge, but this will require you to capture at 480p or even 720p which is more bandwith-intensive.

The cheapest option would be to get a VGA to component scan converter, like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/250891516971
There are much cheaper scan converters available, but many are limited to S-Video output and it would be a shame not to use the component inputs on your Hauppauge.

You would then use your CGA/VGA converter board, like this: RGB source > CGA/VGA board > scan converter > HD PVR.

This allows you to convert all your 240p material to 480i at standard NTSC timings. You can capture this in low-bandwith 480i. Depending on your target format (youtube, DVD, archival), you can run an easy AVisynth/VirtualDub script to turn 480i into real 240p or 480p, but usually it's not neccessary.

PS: Here's another nice and cheap one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/110746916877

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:18 am

Excellent, this looks like a very cost effective solution that utilizes my existing products and doesn't crucify my wallet! The XRGB and DVDO Edge are lovely items but overkill for what I want really. Maybe in the future.

Could I use this as a set up though, as my CGA/VGA scaler has no SCART input (I know it can be modified but that's why I bought the Sync Strike for SCART input):

RGB SCART CONSOLE > SYNC STRIKE > CGA/VGA SCALER > VGA CABLE > One of those devices you linked me to > HD PVR (component in) > Component out to TV

Is that correct? Would I suffer lag issues at all?

edit: Forgot to mention the TV I would connect it all to is a LG 50PK590. I'd also like to connect to my Acer LCD monitor if possible...?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:46 am

Yes, you can use the sync strike.

The only device in the chain to introduce lag is the CGA/VGA converter, but you should be used to that if you used it before. Most of the CGA/VGA converter boards have two VGA outputs, so you should connect your display, either the LG or the Acer, to the 2nd VGA output. The reason for this is that you can add the SLG3000 this output and your display(s) will cause less delay with a VGA signal compared to an interlaced YUV signal.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:54 am

Ah I see, that (I think) makes it clearer. So I could have a set up like this if I don't want to use my TV but want to capture still?:

RGB SCART CONSOLE > SYNC STRIKE > CGA/VGA SCALER > 2 x VGA CABLE (one direct to LCD monitor, nothing else) > (from other VGA output of the scaler) Scan Converter > HD PVR (component in)

Out of interest could I replace the scan converter and/or CGA/VGA Scaler with a DVDO VP30? Are those good?

Thanks everyone for your help by the way, very informative responses that are really helping me out with my setup.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:20 pm

1st question: yes, you don't have to use the HDPVR's output at all.

2nd question: the VP30 is an upscaler, not a "downscaler" like the scan converters recommended before. With a VP30 you don't have to use the CGA/VGA converter anymore (since the VP30 accepts 15khz RGBs already), but you would have to capture in 480p or 720p which results in much larger files. Also you can't use the HDMI output and the YUV output on the VP30 at the same time.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:37 pm

That's great to know. I am wondering about the scan converters then. The ones you recommended are USA based, would I need a step down for use in Ireland? Is the quality of the scan converter OK (I'm not expecting XRGB or DVDO quality of course) as if the quality is very poor I am wondering if it would still work if I take the CGA/VGA and scan converter out of the setup and put in an XRGB-3 or VP30 instead?

I'm not 'too' worried about filesize. Thanks a lot for your help and knowledge.

alamone · Post by **alamone** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:13 pm

If you want the "best" way to capture, it is the SC-500N1 (or SC-510N1) capture card.
See my thread http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37984.

This card can capture 15KHz natively, so there is no need to upscan and downscan
your signal just to capture it, as with conventional capture methods.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:20 pm

Nice device but no use to me as I use a laptop.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:23 pm

Sorry, I assumed you were overseas. The CYP one uses an external power supply which you can replace with a generic 10 EUR one, or maybe it takes 230V anyway. You can try to find a unit in europe - shouldn't be too hard either. Just search for "scan converter" on the various european eBay sites.

The quality is really good as long as you use a scan converter which uses component output. You'll start to lose quality once you go composite or s-video.

An XRGB won't help you with with capture. You would need a XRGB *and* a VP30. Also the VP30 does not have real 240p recognition (just like the CGA/VGA converter), so it's not much better. Also when you capture 480i you can easily decide on wether turning it into a 60fps clip or into a 30fps clip. If you capture 480p or 720p you end up with a 60fps clip which can't be used for DVD mastering or for Youtube (without dropping half the frames first).

There are many way to capture, but with your hardware available, a scan converter would be the easiest way, especially since you can play and capture at the same time using both VGA outputs of your CGA/VGA converter board.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:36 pm

Super informative, you saved my wallet from impending doom!

I've looked at the Extron 580xi too, would that help at all? It has VGA input and bnc component out but I'm not sure what it does in terms of scaling etc.

If that device is no good I'm thinking I will buy one of the scan converters you recommended earlier on eBay, I just can't fi d any for sale in Europe.

Once I can get a shopping list together I'll put in an order and hopefully be all set. Just hoping I don't suffer lag and the picture quality is of component standard.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:54 pm

No, the Extron 580xi won't help you. The CYP auction still looks best. I doubt that anyone else will bid, so it should be around 50 GBP shipped. The auction even says that the PSU is multi-voltage.

Haven't you used your CGA/VGA converter board before or why do you fear any lag ? Even if there's lag with the scan converter, it would not affect your playing "route", but only your capture "route". Quality isn't an issue - the scan converter delivers way better quality than your Hauppage can preserve with it's live h.264 encoding.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:02 pm

I've used the scaler with sync strike and SLG 3000 with my Saturn using scart a few days ago and had no problems at all. I guess I'm just fearful of the cash outlay and not being able to capture. But I'm taking your advice on this and buying that converter.

I assume I need component Bnc connectors for the hd pvr cable?

Hope this all works!

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:25 pm

Based on the price and international shipping, I would recommend buying the CYP one. It has standard RCA/Cinch outputs for component video, so you don't need any BNC cables.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:29 pm

Cool, that's the one I'm going for. I hope it's as good as we think it is!

Out of interest, do you think this thing will play nicely with an MVS system? Also, in the future is it worth my while adding an XRGB-3 for non-capping gameplay? I think I read somewhere the XRGB-3 doesn't like MVS systems though?

BTW, I've been reading your website and that's some haul of processors to read through, makes choosing one even more difficult!

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:07 pm

Out of interest, do you think this thing will play nicely with an MVS system?

yes, because the CGA/VGA scaler probably already does a framerate conversion to 59.94 or 60.00Hz. I don't see any problems with any source in your setup.

Also, in the future is it worth my while adding an XRGB-3 for non-capping gameplay?

you get what you pay for. The XRGB is a huge step up in quality, but it can be hard to use and compatibility with your sources depends on your displays unless you add another processor like the Edge.

I think I read somewhere the XRGB-3 doesn't like MVS systems though?

that's right.

BTW, I've been reading your website and that's some haul of processors to read through, makes choosing one even more difficult!

gets much easier once you set yourself a limit on how much you want to spend.

dieKatze88 · Post by **dieKatze88** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:21 pm

For what it's worth. I've been doing some streaming tests with Svideo and a SNES. That same option should be available to you (Unless SNES/SFC 2) and the quality isn't half bad. It's obviously never ever going to stand up to RGB, but with those retro consoles, does it really matter? Most of those games were designed to be played over an RF connection. a reasonable quality Svideo cable and Svideo capture card should produce results far above what the developers of these games had in mind for them at the time.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:46 pm

Most of those games were designed to be played over an RF connection

The composite/s-video/RGB question is heavily dependent on whom you ask. Most american users didn't have access to anything better back in the day, but RGB via Scart was huge in Europe. Almost every TV since the last 80s had RGB and so the NES was actually the only system I ever played without using RGB.

dieKatze88 · Post by **dieKatze88** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:10 pm

Fudoh wrote:
Most of those games were designed to be played over an RF connection
The composite/s-video/RGB question is heavily dependent on whom you ask. Most american users didn't have access to anything better back in the day, but RGB via Scart was huge in Europe. Almost every TV since the last 80s had RGB and so the NES was actually the only system I ever played without using RGB.

and I get that, but you design for the lowest common denominator. If that means the SNES in the USA only supports RF and Svideo at best, and that's 1/3 of your market, Then you don't design a game that's impossible to play if the picture isn't near perfect.

That said, Modern capture cards clean up these images reasonably well. The problem is 240p. For some reason many of my cards deliberately interlace my 240p games.

Also, I'm on my 3rd or 4th TV with some form of component input, even if it was 480i only on the first CRT that had it, but the cables were impossible to get in the USA.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:33 pm

Regarding the XRGB, as I've been reading a lot about these devices tonight. Was the XRGB-2+ a big leap up from the XRGB-2? Also, out of the XRGB-2, 2+ and 3, which would be the best for retro gaming?

Sorry for so many questions today (I am learning a lot though!).

alamone · Post by **alamone** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:48 pm

In my experience:

XRGB-2: Best picture quality, but incompatible with certain PCBs (such as Raiden II @ 55.5hz)
XRGB-2+: Slightly jittery picture, incompatible with certain PCBs (such as Seibu SPI @ 54 hz), but has "MASK OFF" option that can show pixels that are normally cut off on the XRGB-2 and XRGB-3 (many PCBs)
XRGB-3: Picture quality just as good as XRGB-2, but only lag-free in line doubler mode, which removes most of the new features of the XRGB-3 such as DVI out. Personally, I found it difficult to use with PCBs as it was quite finicky, and I could not get the PC based adjustment tool to work well. Some people also complain about picture loss with high voltage RGB signal. I ended up selling it and keeping my 2 and 2+.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:57 pm

Hmm so PCB gaming aside the 2 and 2+ are the ones to go with? I find it interesting that the XRGB-3 loses a lot of it's extra functionality when you switch modes. Do they all play nicely with everything 8bit or 16bit? Minus possible obvious choices like Atari systems or the Famicom?

I'm toying with the idea of buying an XRGB for non-capture purposes and just nice console gaming but then again as was pointed out to me earlier, the scaler and SLG I already have are probably sufficient.

Thankfully the capture side is hopefully solved now if I get the scan converter.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:09 pm

Back again with a couple of questions (sorry!) on these video processor devices. I found a couple of devices for a good price that I was thinking of adding to my set up. Not specifically for capturing, just for gaming and maybe adding to my home theatre setup.

Specifically I'm looking at an XRGB-2+ and a clone of a DVDO VP20 (not sure if it has some extra card people keep talking about when I done some research). Now I'm thinking of using these two devices in a similar way to having an XRGB-3 going to a DVDO Edge. Would this produce a similar result? I'm not expecting the same results as obviously the innards are different and/or better. Just wondering if buying these two devices is worth my while (assuming the price is right) and if they play nicely with:

PS1 (PAL), PS1 (NTSC-U), PS2 (PAL), PS2 Slim (NTSC-U), PC Engine Duo-R (NTSC-J and RGB modded), Sega Saturn (Model 1 and NTSC-J), Neo Geo MVS MV-1A, Sega Dreamcast (PAL but BIOS flashed, VGA box and chipped to NTSC-J).

If the XRGB-2+ and VP20 clone would do a decent job it would be good to know. Oh and the scan converter is looking good, got one coming soon hopefully for my capturing.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:25 pm

Btw: you can find all this information on my website already, maybe you should give it another read...

Specifically I'm looking at an XRGB-2+ and a clone of a DVDO VP20

the main difference between these two "types" of processors is that the XRGB-2+ outputs to VGA in 480p only, while the Iscan units upscale to 1080p and output through HDMI. The XRGB-2+ properly handles 240p, while it utterly fails at 480i. The iScan on the other hand does 480i wonderfully, but it fails on 240p.

The VP20 clone you're refering to is missing the ABT102 upgrade card, so the this version of the VP20 is basically an iscan HD with added HDMI ports. The VP20 is also missing a VGA input (for systems like Dreamcast) and is missing the VGA output (for use with a SLG3000), so if you want scanlines the VP20 (or clone) isn't the way to go.

Pyongyang · Post by **Pyongyang** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:39 pm

I was watching this video here on the VP20 clone and when the guy was going through the menus I noticed a lot of deinterlacing settings were greyed out, must be the lack of ABT102 card as you stated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqLeeCsTdwM

I figured it must be too good to be true. Point noted on re-reading your site, I picked up new info on the HD, VP20 and VP30 there. Seems the ABT102 card is expensive plus I can't find one for sale anyway. Maybe the VP20 isn't worth the investment... maybe it is though for plugging my satellite receiver in to though for SD channels...? I'll do some more investigating.

Going back to the XRGB-2+ though, a lot of people seem to be recommending it over the XRGB-3. I'm interested as I've sourced one for a good price. I'm just wondering how I can get it to fit in to my set up, or indeed if it's worth it, hence so many questions.

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Retro consoles and video capturing set up

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