Dreamcast shooters

[DC906270]

I have been playing a few dreamcast shooters lately, namely Ikaruga nd Border Down (I bought a PAL Dreamcast cheap from a friend and got a DC-X converter). They are enjoyable enough, but i would say they are a lot different to say shooters on Saturn etc, they feel a bit wierd like "super smooth" or something, and the music tends to be louder than the blasting noises (i am a big fan of loud, satisfying blasting noises in shmups). I am unsure if these changes are a "step up" from the 32-bit generation, but i commend the developers for trying to push the genre forward. Also, the pinpoint precision of shooters like Battle Garegga appears to have been lost. What do others make of the Dreamcast shmups? And have i missed something special in these games which will appear after many hours of gameplay (which i havnt put in yet!)

[SAM]

Great DC Shooters
Twinkle Star Sprites
Zero Gunner 2

Good DC Shooters
GunBird 2
SNS2
Benga-O

Other Shooter (Not so Good)
ChaosField
Trizeal

Great Non-Shooter
Virtual On (You would need a Twinsticks Controller for this.)

[Naiera]

MARS MATRIX

That's all you need to know for now

[Super Laydock]

There's a no real consensus among shmuppers of what is and what is not a great DC shmup.

Every game has it's fans and it's critics.

Following SAM's way of dividing the good from the bad here's my list:

Great DC shmups:

Border Down
Giga Wing
Gunbird 2


Good DC shmups:

Shikigami no Shiro 2
Trizeal (get past it's -not so good- looks and there's a great game)


Ok DC shmups:

Chaos Field (so what if noone seems to like it!? I like it! )
Giga Wing 2 (beautiful, but slowdown and bullet visibility issues)
Zeo Gunner 2 (quite beautiful, controls take getting used to, too easy)


Other DC shmups (not so good imo - but can be liked (or even loved) if you're unlike me :

Psyvariar 2 (acquired taste - nice execution but no fun for me)
Ikaruga (acquired taste - great execution but no fun for me)
Mars Matrix (avarage at most execution but no fun for me)


Great borderliner:

Bangai-oh

[Bar81]

MARS MATRIX

That's all you need to know for now

[Dandy J]

MARS MATRIX

That's all you need to know for now

[Edge]

I can highly recommend "Giga Wing".

Giga Wing (1) is my favorite "score shmup", I personally like it more than DoDonPachi.

[Rooster]

I signed up just so I could reply to this. The DC was always kinda special to me, largely because it singlehadedly dragged me, kicking and screaming, back into console gaming after a long stretch of PC lovin elitism. It was good to be back, and there was plenty of shooting goodness to be had; in fact the DC is home to some of my alltime favorite shmups, although I must admit I wasn't too partial to the genre in my youth. Sam's format seems as good as any, so I'll use that as well (but must elaborate more).

Great DC shmups:

Ikaruga- I never got into bashing something simply because I felt like it recieved too mush praise or attention. The hype on this was immense, and I remember the wait to get my hands on it being somewhat brutal, but I never felt like it wasn't worth it. If nothing else, it deserves praise for possibly having the best presentation of any shmup ever; its a visual feast and the music is outstanding. Clearly, this title was given a lot of love and attention. I think the thing I like most about it is that it dosen't try to do anything unnecessary- no screen filling super weapons (no actual bomb even!), no bonus items cluttering up the screen, no powerups to chase. Just you in the middle of all that black and white, alone against the universe as always. If I had to use just one word, it would be elegant.

Mars Matrix- Seems a popular choice around here so I guess it needs no introduction. The Soul Calibur of shmups- I'm still impressed by the amout of unlockables and options that this one gives you. You could spend weeks just trying to open everything up. Gameplay is hard as nails, but its worth it to see all the beautiful bullet patterns, or just to say that you were able to man up enough to get through it. Probably the most complete home conversion I've ever seen (but lacked tate IIRC- did the arcade rev. use a vertical monitor?).

Gigawing/2- I actually love them both. I'll admit that the first is probably the superior title as far as gameplay is concerned, but the second has some nice eyecandy, an awsome soundtrack and great atmosphere (is retro-futuristic a proper term?). Plus, even if it was kinda gimmiky, you could play with four people (although not seriously). Obviously I'm kind of a sucker for manic/bullet hell type shmups, and these are good ones. Also, you have to love a scoring system so ridiculous that the numbers had to be color coded.

Border Down- I usually don't get into horizontals much, but this one sucked me in like no other. Dethroned Iky as the DC's last hoorah, and with so much class. Again, very polished, great soundtrack and unique gameplay mechanics combined to make a modern classic. Try this one before you diss the DC for shmups.

I'm starting to ramble, but I'll be back to cover the rest in a bit.

[professor ganson]

Although the PS2 is now surpassing the DC in the number of cool titles (thanks in large part to Cave) and the Saturn and PS1 will likely always reign supreme, the DC is still one of the best consoles for shmups IMO. I would rank the titles something like this, but I like every one of them a lot:

SnS2 (only played PS2 and GC versions, I love this game to death)
Giga Wing (fav. Capcom shooter)
Border Down (fav. hori since Harmful Park)
Ikaruga (only played GC version)
Mars Matrix (hard but thrilling)
Gunbird 2 (painfully hard but very fun for 2 levels or so)
Giga Wing 2 (nice looking and sounding, a good challenge, not as sublime as GW)
Trizeal (still getting used to it)

Haven't played:
ZG2 (worried about the controls)
Psyvariar 1 and 2 (also worried aobut controls)
Twinkle Star Sprites (waiting for the new PS2 title)
Chaos Field (waiting for the US GC release)

Isn't there also a title called 'Armada' or something like that? I'm probably forgetting something else as well.

Centipede has lousy controls IMO, but I haven't spent much time with this follow-up to the original (which I played in Chuck E. Cheese today-- that game still rules!).

[BulletMagnet]

Mars Matrix-Probably the most complete home conversion I've ever seen (but lacked tate IIRC- did the arcade rev. use a vertical monitor?).

It's been a little while since I pulled MM out, but I don't recall any borders or anything like that...maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's yoko-oriented like the first 2 GW games. Someone correct me if I'm off.

And prof, in my experience the controls in Psyvariar and ZG2 aren't anything to get worked up about in themselves, although like any other games there are aspects of them that you'll like and dislike. Their "styles" just take some getting used to. Also, you can get Psy 2 on the PS2 for cheap on eBay these days, it's a lot more common than the DC version, and has more stuff, though unfortunately it's CD-format, which is my main complaint against it versus the DC version.

[professor ganson]

And prof, in my experience the controls in Psyvariar and ZG2 aren't anything to get worked up about in themselves, although like any other games there are aspects of them that you'll like and dislike. Their "styles" just take some getting used to. Also, you can get Psy 2 on the PS2 for cheap on eBay these days, it's a lot more common than the DC version, and has more stuff, though unfortunately it's CD-format, which is my main complaint against it versus the DC version.

Cool, I've always thought that Psy 2 had an interesting look to it, and I've hesitated mostly because of the talk of a "buzz" system (or whatever it's called) and because I didn't know what the differences were between the various versions of Psyvariar. I'll keep my eye out for an inexpensive copy.

[BulletMagnet]

All the "buzz" system means is that the game rewards you for grazing bullets, with extra points, temporary invincibility, and "levels" which will power you up once you've gained enough of them, and if you're really good it'll give you an extra level at the end. The only actual controls you have to worry about are moving around, shooting and bombing like in most any other shmup; the one addition is the ability to "spin" and focus your shot (and increase your buzz ability) by moving back and forth rapidly, but in the PS2 version there's a separate button for it, which makes it even easier.

As for ZG2's rotation system, aside from the shot and special weapon buttons, there's a separate button for "rotate"; all it does when you hold it down is create a little cross-hairs thing a little ways in front of your heli, and allows you to use the regular ol' control pad to move around it and change the way you're facing. Let go of the rotate button and you'll stay facing that way, and can move around normally. It takes just a little practice and you're good to go; trust me, if I can feel comfortable with it, ANYone can.

[Elixir]

Why would anyone play Mars Matrix in tate?

[BulletMagnet]

I don't believe that's even possible:

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?let ... me_id=8629

Listed right there, horizontal orientation.

[professor ganson]

All the "buzz" system means is that the game rewards you for grazing bullets, with extra points, temporary invincibility, and "levels" which will power you up once you've gained enough of them, and if you're really good it'll give you an extra level at the end. The only actual controls you have to worry about are moving around, shooting and bombing like in most any other shmup; the one addition is the ability to "spin" and focus your shot (and increase your buzz ability) by moving back and forth rapidly, but in the PS2 version there's a separate button for it, which makes it even easier.

Oh, OK, that sounds straightforward and fun. I will have to pick it up in the coming months now that the price isn't so bad

As for ZG2's rotation system, aside from the shot and special weapon buttons, there's a separate button for "rotate"; all it does when you hold it down is create a little cross-hairs thing a little ways in front of your heli, and allows you to use the regular ol' control pad to move around it and change the way you're facing. Let go of the rotate button and you'll stay facing that way, and can move around normally. It takes just a little practice and you're good to go; trust me, if I can feel comfortable with it, ANYone can.

This is reassuring. I was definitely concerned about rotating. My other concern is just the cost. This one isn't too cheap usually. I know eventually I'll have to pick it up, though.

[BulletMagnet]

Oh, OK, that sounds straightforward and fun. I will have to pick it up in the coming months now that the price isn't so bad

On eBay new copies of the PS2 version routinely go for around 30 bucks (some BINs too); within the last month or three I got my copy new for 20 plus shipping. The DC version's more expensive.

This is reassuring. I was definitely concerned about rotating. My other concern is just the cost. This one isn't too cheap usually. I know eventually I'll have to pick it up, though.

Be patient with this one: there ARE deals out there. I'm not sure how much the price might or might not have risen since I saw it, but I distinctly remember a copy of it going for about 25$ on eBay some time ago.

[professor ganson]

within the last month or three I got my copy new for 20 plus shipping.

Wow, $20. Good job. I've never seen it that low, but I've been searching only half-heartedly over the last 3 months or so.

[BulletMagnet]

Heh, the seller I got it from actually put up a few of them starting at 20, I got the last one I saw him list, at the starting price. Considering how many other cheap auctions I've lost at the last second, I was about due.

[neojma]

Why not throw another opinion into the mix:

God Tier:
Mars Matrix - just play it. Unless you're a weenie, because it's hard as hell. It will eat you alive, but you'll love it if you like manics at all.

Great Games:
Border Down - fantastic hori, if you look back fondly on the Thunderforce or Darius series, you'll like it.

Shikigami 2 - great level design, different characters really do feel different, just has a really good feel.

Psyvariar 2 - love it. It's a total "beat your scores" game, and very short even for a shooter. Bullet patterns are really great though, and it just feels right to me.

Really Good Games:
Giga Wing - a rock-solid manic, bullet absorbing mechanic was cool as anything back when the game was released. Good bullet patterns and one of the few games that can elicit that white-knuckle feeling of living on the edge of getting blown up. You will be dodging your ass off just wating for a few more milliseconds to hear "OK" to let you know the timer has run and you can absorb shots again. And you will NEED to use the absorb, as you ain't doding all them buillets on the screen. (For reference, I think Takumi improved with Mars Matrix, and failed to live up to GW with GW2 and GWG).

Ikaruga - feels so epic. Truly well done light/dark system. Sometimes a little too puzzle-like in the chain combos for me, I tend toward the "don't think, shoot" metality. I think Radiant Silvergun is the most overrated shmup ever, but I really like Ikaruga. Might mean something to somebody out there.

Good Games:
TriZeal - seems so utterly average at first, but it's growing on me big time. Seems to be the general feeling. It will sneak into your favorites. I won't be surprised if I like this game even more a year from now.

Zero Gunner 2 - Classic Psikyo formula with a rotating helicopter twist.

Gunbird 2 - Classic Psikyo fomula without much of a twist at all. Solid game though.

OK Games:
Giga Wing 2 - obnoxious slowdown, I don't particularly like the music (I think the more generic techno beats of GW1 and Mars Matrix better fit a manic). It's not bad, but levels aren't as well designed as the original GW. Big bonus points for the absurdly ridiculous 4P mode. It's a riot playing with three other people and hearing the voices going crazy. Slowdown city, and absolutely not for a serious run, but it's fun.

Cannon Spike - interesting character based 3D Psikyo/Capcom game.

Bangaioh - my winner for most overrated DC shmup (or at least an almost-shmup). It's not bad, but not the classic that a lot of people make it out to be (I chalk it up to Treasure fanboys). You could do a lot worse.

Bad Games:
Chaos Field - poor Chaos Field. Ugly graphics, uninspired gameplay, no levels (it's 100% boss rush). I want to like it, and occasionally play it trying to appreciate it. It's just not that good though. Feels like a mediocre doujin game. At least there are a few nice music tracks. [/i]

[kidneythief]

Hi.

Firstly, I'm sick of you fags saying TATE and YOKO. It's annoying as !@#$. How !@#$ing nerdy can you possibly get.

That said, I'll continue: The DC has some great shmups, some over rated, most underrated however. I'll star off by pointing out the complete and utter Rubbish titles.

1. Chaos Field.
This game blows. In fact it's pretty much the only dreamcast shooter I can think of that absolutely blows. It's basically one big boss battle after another. If that's what you enjoy, great, but the number of play techniques involved makes the boss battles really boring and lame too. Plus it looks like !@#$, so it's not even attractive visually.

Now for the good stuff, heres a list of average-ish titles:
1. Gigawing 1/2.
I like Takumi. I like capcom. I like Gigawing. But these 2 games are not nearly as nicely executed as the somewhat similar Mars Matrix. The CPS2 graphics of Gigawing 1 look like !@#$ on the DC, and the naomi graphics on GW2 are pretty awful as well. The play mechanics are terrific though and it's one of the more entertaining games. Just not nearly as good as Mars Matrix.

2. Trizeal.
I like Trizeal, and I'm liking XII Stag for my PS2. Triangle is a good company so far. This game is much better than many are claiming it to be. It doesn't have any gimmick/play mechanic, it's more like a Horizontal shooter flipped to vertical, just old school twitch gameplay. The cycling weapons allows for some freedom/preference and strategic gameplay, and there aren't too many bullets on the screen, so mostly the challenge is in trying to eliminate all the enemies and bonus chaining, as opposed to surviving bajillions of bullets. It's under rated, but I still prefer the more gimmicky games like Ikaruga (if anybody calls it Iky, I will slit their mother !@#$ing throats because that is so !@#$ing annoying!) and Zero Gunner 2, and Psyvariar 2, and Mars Matrix.

3. Boarder Down.
I like Boarder Down. This was the first game I ever imported (Yes I was late to buy a copy of Ikaruga) largely because of the hype surrounding it in #dc-chat on efnet. It's a nice game but there are things I don't like about it, but all in all it's as close to an R-Type clone as it gets on the DC and every console should have at least one proper horizontal shooter, even though Boarder Down still feels like a vert shooter flopped on it's side. The dying/branching thing is kind of cute, but it basically just means that if you die and think you can beat it next time, guess what you won't have the chance because you are going in a different direction next time!

And now for my favorite DC shmups... duh duh duh!

1. Psyvariar 2.
This game is really under rated. I prefer the PS2 version because the load times on the DC FREAKING SUCK, and plus the 2 player gameplay. But aside from that, I'm really glad I imported this. The Buzz gimmick is reminiscent of Shikigami No Shiro, As your buzz chains add hugely to your score, and also because of the lightning emitted from your ship when you Buzz a lot that eliminates whatever enemies are left on the screen thus allowing you to destroy 100 % of the enemies on the screen, which is always fun. Yes, this is a good game, the only thing that detracts from the experience are the load times and the lack of multiplayer, so you should just pick up Ultimate and/or Medium Unit for PS2 instead. The graphics are excellent in both versions, really (minus the third level... not too keen on that one.)

2. Gunbird 2.
Now I really really like Psikyo, and have been for a long time before I even knew that my favorite arcade games were created by Psikyo ( There was an MVS with aero fighters at a video game store where I used to live, and later on in life Strikers 1945 at the arcade was my fav. shooter) Unfortunately I never got to play Gunbird 1 or 2 in the arcades, but when I got it for my DC (and mame for that matter) I've played it for hours on end just like any other Psikyo game (Psyikyo is sooooooo great!) I don't know if theres any real complicated scoring system because I havn't found anything to improve my score, but I play it mainly for the challenge of trying to 1 credit a manic shooter. It's got some nice characters, great animation, and quirky dialogue, which is all a big plus in video games (quirky poorly translated japanese scripts > quirky poorly written english scripts any day)

3. Mars Matrix.
Super terrific game from Takumi/capcom in more or less the same vein as the Giga Wing series, except that in addition to the reflex barrier, you also have a shotgun attack that you can use by simply tapping the shoot button for taking out large enemies. Mars Matrix, like GigaWing, originated on Capcom's CPS2 system, so you can expect a SOMEWHAT dated look, however unlike GW, Mars Matrix looks VERY nice. Much nicer than GW. It's not painful to look at at all. Not as nice or animated as Gunbird 2, but still very very good. The sound is also pretty good for a shooter and CPS2 game, the remixed music is very cool and I even got the sound track later on to hear the extended versions of the tracks but the original sound still holds up well for CPS2 games, especially in comparison to others like Street Fighter Alpha 3 (ughhhhhh). Anyway, this is truely an A+++ shooter for the DC.

4. Ikaruga.
People say this game is overrated. They don't know the MEANING of overrated. Doom 3 is overrated. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas is overrated. Ikaruga is probably right on the ball when it comes to ratedness, because this is truely a wonderful game. The graphics are super nice and theres virtually no load times (that I notice), the gameplay mechanics offer a nice change of pace from traditional shootemups, and every level is challenging and doesn't get boring (well level 1 is pretty easy but it's still very hard to not miss a single chain). speaking of chains, the chaining system adds a lot of strategic depth to the game not seen in a great many shooters ( I can't really think of any, actually ) and this is truely one of the most enjoyable shooters not just on the DC but anywhere. They say it's a sequel to Radiant Silvergun. I don't know about that because I haven't played Radiant Silvergun, nor do I ever intend to, because the overall cost of doing so would extend well into the multiple hundreds of dollars. What I've heard of Radiant Silvergun doesn't sound too pleasing anyway, but Ikaruga is def. a must-have for any DC / Gamecube owner. Fantastic!

5. Shikigami No Shiro 2.
I didn't like this when I first played it. I thought the characters shots were so freaking huge and it was a piece of cake to 1 credit this game. My only question was, why was my score not even surpassing 1 million? Then I noticed the cause of the effect of my man/lady's aura turning red, and the small "x8" graphic after killing an enemy with the charge attack from very close by (small graphic because I don't rotate my TV to play shooters... because that !@#$s up the colours on my !@#$ing trinitron) and found that I was able to surpass 2 million or even 3 million points in a single level. That's when my 1 credit gaming came to an end I thoroughly enjoy trying to surpass my highest scores per each stage, and training mode is really good in that respect. Plus, in the small character portrait story scenes, I mute the TV and improvise their voice overs myself to make them funny and ammusing. Good times! The graphics are decent enough, but the stage design is actually pretty plain (like the appartment complex at the end of stage 1-1 looks very very ugly and grey) So it falls short there. The loading times aren't too bad though not as good as Ikaruga, and most of the slow parts occur when continuing or when waiting for it to finish up loading the high freaking score listings!! But all in all its a good game, quickly becoming my favorite.

6. Zero Gunner 2.
I'm a bad, bad person. I havn't actually imported this title yet, I've been playing it on a pirated copy my chum gave me. Well, after seeing the cover art of this game, I'm not entirely in regret of that, however I'm sure I'll buy it eventually!

Anyway... I've already mentioned that I love Psikyo, so you might think I'm a bit biased here, but come on. The 360º rotation gimmick is cool, and I like the way E chips suck towards your ship when you aren't firing. This game isn't really very challenging until the 6th stage, and maybe the boss of the 5th stage on a bad day (though I usually only play it on the "5" difficulty level). The graphics are good, the music is very cool but maybe a bit generic/forgettable. I really like the music in Sea of cloud it starts of so calm. The worst music is the boss/mini boss battles though... terrible. :X. The load times in this shooter are probably the best on the whole system, they are virtually not even there. It's like playing a cartridge based game, everything flows very nicely and isn't frustrating at all. You unlock credits when you achieve highscores (I think the max is 9?) I said the graphics are good, well actually it's not too consistent. In some places they are very , very nice. The water in Marine Base looks really really good, but the clouds in Sea of Cloud look a bit jagged to me, and the water in the other water-ish level are ass ugly (because that water is actually 3D and not 2D graphics like the other, so it's not able to use the same effect) and some of the ships look really dumb (mainly the jumbo jet thingies in stage 6) The bombs for each helicopter are different though so you can Pick Your Favorite and thats pretty cool It's a sweet game that I'm definitely going to buy some time. ;p


I won't include Twinkle Star Sprites, although it's a great game, It's on Saturn as well so it would be somewhat redundant. Another note, Rez is fantasic as well though it's a rail shooter, and, as I understand it, hardcore shmup nerds hate all other kinds of shooters! (No I'm just giving you a hard time... But seriously, lighten up!)

And that concludes my Debut on the shmups forums. I'm sure I've left a very nice and personable impression on all of you. I hope I'm not bumping this thread, I can't remember if I got here on google or through the main site

[freddiebamboo]

Hi.

Firstly, I'm sick of you fags saying TATE and YOKO. It's annoying as !@#$.

Is this a joke?

[kidneythief]

No it's completely honest. Anybody who says them seriously is a big fag.

[Ord]

No it's completely honest. Anybody who says them seriously is a big fag.

I can see you getting banned quite soon with that dickish attitude.

[kidneythief]

Sorry, but it's true. I don't see why it's so hard for people in the video game community to not be complete fags in a manner such as this.

[freddiebamboo]

Sorry, but it's true. I don't see why it's so hard for people in the video game community to not be complete fags in a manner such as this.

How do you want us to describe what way our tv's are sitting?

[professor ganson]

No it's completely honest. Anybody who says them seriously is a big fag.

You completely suck, kidneythief. I hope that you either get educated or get kicked off the forum.

[gingerj]

Psyvariar 2 by miles is the best DC shooter. Nothing touches it, its controls, the innovation, the sound track and the shooting mechanics. Its not only one of the best games on the DC but one of the best games produced this generation.

[kidneythief]

First of all, to an english speaker, "Yoko" isn't very !@#$ing descriptive, now is it. And while tate is a Portion of a whole word, an entire word would be preferable. Try "Rotated", or even "Sideways" or "Vertical". Those are all adjectives. Tate is not.

[freddiebamboo]

First of all, to an english speaker, "Yoko" isn't very !@#$ing descriptive, now is it. And while tate is a Portion of a whole word, an entire word would be preferable. Try "Rotated", or even "Sideways" or "Vertical". Those are all adjectives. Tate is not.

This should probably be made sticky so that everyone else on the forums can adapt to kidneythief

[kidneythief]

A sticky on how to not be an absolute moron? I guess you're coming to your senses after all