Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

This is the main shmups forum. Chat about shmups in here - keep it on-topic please!
Post Reply
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4253
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

Post by Despatche »

IseeThings wrote:Believe it or not, highscore not resetting to 0 is considered 'good' by the majority of people, it's just the hardcore shooter fans here who don't like it. One time I was doing gamedev before we had bug reports *because* we reset the score to 0, and had to change it.
i don't know why anyone would consider it 'good', and it has nothing to do with being a "hardcore shooter fan". simply put, you were dealing with unappreciative idiots.

did you really have to change it? what happened?
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
IseeThings
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:38 pm
Location: California

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by IseeThings »

Despatche wrote:i don't know why anyone would consider it 'good', and it has nothing to do with being a "hardcore shooter fan". simply put, you were dealing with unappreciative idiots.

did you really have to change it? what happened?
Yes, we were told to change it, it was considered akin to throwing away an achievements the player might have got during that session (or their progress towards them). Their 'score' was part of their 'achievement', and because they had chosen to continue playing it was required that their score continued to accumulate. Had the issue not been raised in the first place, it might have got through, but the second somebody stood up and reported it as a bug it was doomed.

Games Industry is dictated by politics, and lowest common denominator in terms of player skill these days. Yes, it seems like bullshit, but there you go. Positive reinforcement outweighs everything else. Games should all be completable by brute force and perseverance, not skill. Even just saying 'Game Over' is near enough a sin.

Why do you think the likes of Cave have such a niche market compared to the mainstream AAA titles? Games which require skill aren't what the masses want. Just button mashing, fancy effects, and faux-ego building with XBox gamerscores which never go down, even if you suck at the games, and 'my dick is bigger than yours' trophy collections which usually just require tedious corner hunting of the game worlds to achieve.

It will all come crashing down eventually, I hope.. but you never know, these interactive movies passed off as games are becoming more popular all the time, and still being praised by almost everybody I know. Heavy Rain for example, contains no real gameplay, an awkward control systems, and a billion bugs but is being considered the pinnacle of games. You can fail 99% of the game, and just be asked to repeat it, or actually find there was no consequence to it because only certain sequences make any difference at all.

I can't really say any more I'm afraid.
Last edited by IseeThings on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
ncp
Posts: 781
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 9:17 pm
Location: Tampa, FL

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by ncp »

anybody who is playing a shooter and doesn't care that the score doesn't reset to 0 on a continue doesn't care about the score at all anyway.
Holy shit that was a lot of negatives, let's try that again:
anybody who wants the score to not reset doesn't actually care about score.

it's not really just "hardcore shooter fans", just anyone who has a grasp of the concept of score in arcade games

edit: it's basically like getting "perfect!!" in DDR even if you miss the step, lol
IseeThings
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:38 pm
Location: California

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by IseeThings »

ncp wrote:anybody who is playing a shooter and doesn't care that the score doesn't reset to 0 on a continue doesn't care about the score at all anyway

it's not really just "hardcore shooter fans", just anyone who has a grasp of the concept of score in arcade games
People care about the score, just not about it being a representation of their skill, more the number of hours they've put into getting it.. Much like MMORPGs and stat building which don't really mirror skill, just how often and for how long people have repeated the same things over and over again.

When you give a normal person a shooter it's exactly the same. Just be thankful they still reset between Game Overs because I swear at this rate you'll soon start to find shooters on XBLA and PSN that retain your score between sessions.

Sports games seem to be one of the few genres that still require skill, which people don't like being dumbed down. That's somewhat ironic when you consider that sports fans are the ones stereotyped as mindless buffoons.

Even for other things I've worked on your score for an area was marked as your best score for each of the levels, if you got a lower score on any part of the level it didn't count against your overall score, because it just kept the better score you'd obtained on that part, so again, even with a concept of 'high scores' for each area, your overall score could never go down even if you completely screwed up some of the levels (which in some cases was beneficial to getting higher scores on later levels meaning to have the highest score on the leaderboards you really had to play through multiple times, each time focusing on a different level)

Personally I don't consider that good, it erodes the meaning of having a score as an absolute measure of skill, but that's the general expectation people have now.
Last edited by IseeThings on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4253
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by Despatche »

IseeThings wrote:Why do you think the likes of Cave have such a niche market compared to the mainstream AAA titles?
i agree with a lot of what you've said, but here, cave might not be the best example; there are many sensible people who think cave just overdoes it sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with that. it would be a good idea to compare this with what these kinds of people do enjoy, though.
IseeThings wrote:It will all come crashing down eventually, I hope.. but you never know, these interactive movies passed off as games are becoming more popular all the time, and still being praised by almost everybody I know.
some would rather have it that these "interactive experiences" become their own thing so that games go back to being games.
IseeThings wrote:Even for other things I've worked on your score for an area was marked as your best score for each of the levels, if you got a lower score on any part of the level it didn't count against your overall score, because it just kept the better score you'd obtained on that part, so again, even with a concept of 'high scores' for each area, your overall score could never go down even if you completely screwed up some of the levels (which in some cases was beneficial to getting higher scores on later levels meaning to have the highest score on the leaderboards you really had to play through multiple times, each time focusing on a different level)
developers like zun tried this twice, and it seemed to work well, because i tend to hear those two games get praised (or at least talked about) before any of his others.
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
IseeThings
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:38 pm
Location: California

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by IseeThings »

Despatche wrote: developers like zun tried this twice, and it seemed to work well, because i tend to hear those two games get praised (or at least talked about) before any of his others.
It's not as bad as some, but if for example DDPDOJ worked that way (with mods to accommodate it), you'd always have the choice to start at any level (with full lives / bombs stock) and always be able to keep your scores from any prior level.

If you wanted to use your hypers etc. on level 1 you could use them there, and get a high score locked in. If you wanted to save them all for level 2 you could do that on another run, without affecting your level 1 score at all..

As I said, it just seems to erode the scoring system, makes getting the highest possible score on a single run impossible (unless you start adding various score modifiers based on the number of levels played, it would cause havoc with the rank systems afterall) In the end makes your score just about as meaningless as the 'don't reset after continue' score.

I don't really see it as any better myself, and it all comes down to the same thing, not wanting to take something away from a player, and allowing them to build up their overall scores more by brute force than skill.

Not resetting the score, if done properly, could actually work better. If the scoring opportunities of somebody who continues are far more limited than the ones of those that decide not to (because the game drops down to significantly easier settings, but with lower score potential) then a player who continues is never going to get the highest score compared to one who manages a 1CC run, and the playing field is leveled. They'll never be able to brute force their way into the top 10 if there are 10 players who are actually better. With a lot of games, it doesn't matter tho, continuing has no real disadvantage, which is probably why people started killing the scores in the first place.

The other factor to consider in not killing the score however is the player... Arcades are about making money, the operators want people to put more and more coins in, they want people to finish the games by brute force*. Allowing the player to keep their score in an actual arcade might give them more incentive to continue, even if it does piss the pros off. In a dying industry sometimes you need to grasp at straws. For console games it's not much of an excuse tho.

* there is already a clear culture divide even in the early 90s here, with many Japan versions forcing restart points on death, while the rest of the world can respawn anywhere, for similar reasons. Such decisions were almost certainly heavily influenced by the arcade ops and distributors in those countries, and you have to keep in mind that the actual mainstream industry has now almost entirely shifted outside of Japan to where such opinions are more prevalent
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4253
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by Despatche »

i'm sure you could make a game /like/ ddp, but you couldn't just take doj and stuff this system into it (even with minor tweaks) without needing to completely change the game. on the other hand, something like dangun could get away with it; you're not even told your total score except for the end-of-stage screen, or on the "today's best" screen (you're never told what your total score items--the falling people--are until the latter, which is only important for getting an extend at around 2200 of them).

that new jamestown game normally plays like this, since you have to go unlock the "full game" mode. the touhou bunkacho games were completely built around ideas like this, even in regards to theme (photo shoots): there is no concept of "full game", and no continues or extends to worry about; just one shot to get one photo shoot right. some sort of in-between are games like dariusburst another chronicle and the doujin game sonic ironstorm, which give you a bunch of small routes to tackle with their branching paths; i know that at least the latter actually stops to record your best for each route choice. suddenly, it's no longer brute forcing through anything and now it's learning how to tackle these little bites. this is probably related to why people like stage practice modes so much.

i can totally respect devs that totally remove any sort of "continue" system; that approach is not necessary outside of arcades, and things like extends are fine enough.

(you ever notice how multiple topics pop up in the same thread, when the same topic gets stretched over multiple threads?)
Last edited by Despatche on Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
User avatar
Udderdude
Posts: 6297
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:55 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by Udderdude »

Scores not resetting are not as big of a deal if there's some score/skill based mechanic that does get reset.

A noob credit feeding DOJ all the way to the end is still going to have a shit score compared to someone who knows how to chain even the first few stages (that is, if DOJ didn't reset score between continues).

Also I smell a thread split .. >_>
IseeThings
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:38 pm
Location: California

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by IseeThings »

Udderdude wrote:Scores not resetting are not as big of a deal if there's some score/skill based mechanic that does get reset.

A noob credit feeding DOJ all the way to the end is still going to have a shit score compared to someone who knows how to chain even the first few stages (that is, if DOJ didn't reset score between continues).

Also I smell a thread split .. >_>
Nah I don't think it needs a split

It all comes down to Baryon being a Korean developed game, whereas most of the classic shooters are Japanese in origin.

The Japanese have a significantly different culture and expectations from games, where there is more significance placed on your score and the skill required to obtain it, while outside Japan there is a greater emphasis on profit margins, cheap deaths, and credit feeding of games.

The differences, such as the score systems, restart points etc. reflect this.

Keep in mind IGS did exactly the same with DDP2, and again it's clear that they were aiming for a far wider market than Cave with their extensive localization, detailed how to play stuff and gimmicky internet rankings....
User avatar
RNGmaster
Posts: 2388
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:08 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by RNGmaster »

IseeThings wrote: It all comes down to Baryon being a Korean developed game, whereas most of the classic shooters are Japanese in origin.
Are you implying Koreans aren't good at shmups? The highest-ranking Touhou player, AM, is Korean, as well as many other superplayers.
User avatar
nZero
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:20 am
Location: DC Area
Contact:

Re: Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

Post by nZero »

RNGmaster wrote:
IseeThings wrote: It all comes down to Baryon being a Korean developed game, whereas most of the classic shooters are Japanese in origin.
Are you implying Koreans aren't good at shmups? The highest-ranking Touhou player, AM, is Korean, as well as many other superplayers.
I have no idea how you got that from his post. (Then again, reading your sig, maybe I do! :P)
Image
User avatar
RNGmaster
Posts: 2388
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:08 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

Post by RNGmaster »

nZero wrote:
RNGmaster wrote:
IseeThings wrote: It all comes down to Baryon being a Korean developed game, whereas most of the classic shooters are Japanese in origin.
Are you implying Koreans aren't good at shmups? The highest-ranking Touhou player, AM, is Korean, as well as many other superplayers.
I have no idea how you got that from his post. (Then again, reading your sig, maybe I do! :P)
He said that in Japan people care about getting high scores, and outside of Japan they credit-feed. I'd say that's a pretty clear statement. A bit of an over-generalization, too.
IseeThings
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:38 pm
Location: California

Re: Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

Post by IseeThings »

RNGmaster wrote:
nZero wrote:
RNGmaster wrote: Are you implying Koreans aren't good at shmups? The highest-ranking Touhou player, AM, is Korean, as well as many other superplayers.
I have no idea how you got that from his post. (Then again, reading your sig, maybe I do! :P)
He said that in Japan people care about getting high scores, and outside of Japan they credit-feed. I'd say that's a pretty clear statement. A bit of an over-generalization, too.
I'm saying that's the way the games are designed because of pressure from publishers, the industry in general, and because it's what they THINK people want.

I'm not from Japan and yet disagree with the majority of things you find in games today, the whole lack of real achievement because they're made so easy anybody can actually complete them (and be given virtual achievements instead?)

A good game should be either about skill, or personal memorable experiences that differ to other people. Today's games are about acting out a role in a movie, everybody gets the same experience in the end, as a result most of them are far more fun to WATCH than actually PLAY. The majority of current games require neither skill (just button mashing / repeating sequences until you pass them with checkpoints every minute) nor do they give you a personal experience (too heavily scripted, too restrained) Do anything outside that box and your game will be ripped apart by the reviewers and players who can no longer complete it. It's cheaper and easier to develop games that way too, balance no longer has to be considered as tightly (because players can just brute force their way past the harder bits by retrying), and the more on-rails the game is, the less testing it requires (simple logic, less player input / choice = less test cases, yet they still mange to screw so many up)

Of course there are good players from outside of Japan, but even many of the 90s classics were butchered for non-Japan audiences simply due to publisher / industry / operator pressure.
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8818
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Baryon - Future Assault

Post by Sumez »

ncp wrote:anybody who is playing a shooter and doesn't care that the score doesn't reset to 0 on a continue doesn't care about the score at all anyway.
As much as I prefer resetting to 0, I think you can easily think of other penalties (like resetting every counter and multiplier) that will make scores-earned-using-continues much lower than 1cc scores, thus making a score reset somewhat unnecessary (I remember we had this discussion regarding Trouble Witches Neo).
Another option is to make another counter, similar to score, but which isn't actually used in a high score list / leaderboard / etc. that keeps increasing during the game and DOESN'T reset on continues, while your score does. This counter can keep increasing between plays too, and could used as ingame currency for unlockables, etc. The same people who disliked resetting the score would eat that stuff right up!
User avatar
sikraiken
Posts: 1137
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:08 pm

Re: Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

Post by sikraiken »

Konami made some of their arcade games harder outside of Japan. Thanks, Konami.
User avatar
mrsmiley381
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:37 am
Location: Canyonville, OR
Contact:

Re: Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

Post by mrsmiley381 »

IseeThings wrote:I'm saying that's the way the games are designed because of pressure from publishers, the industry in general, and because it's what they THINK people want.

I'm not from Japan and yet disagree with the majority of things you find in games today, the whole lack of real achievement because they're made so easy anybody can actually complete them (and be given virtual achievements instead?)

A good game should be either about skill, or personal memorable experiences that differ to other people. Today's games are about acting out a role in a movie, everybody gets the same experience in the end, as a result most of them are far more fun to WATCH than actually PLAY. The majority of current games require neither skill (just button mashing / repeating sequences until you pass them with checkpoints every minute) nor do they give you a personal experience (too heavily scripted, too restrained) Do anything outside that box and your game will be ripped apart by the reviewers and players who can no longer complete it. It's cheaper and easier to develop games that way too, balance no longer has to be considered as tightly (because players can just brute force their way past the harder bits by retrying), and the more on-rails the game is, the less testing it requires (simple logic, less player input / choice = less test cases, yet they still mange to screw so many up)

Of course there are good players from outside of Japan, but even many of the 90s classics were butchered for non-Japan audiences simply due to publisher / industry / operator pressure.
Yeah, that sounds about right. I invited some people over to play Mortal Kombat and someone asked, "How do I play?" I told them the basic button setup and they looked dumbfounded. Someone else said, "It's a fighting game, just mash buttons." And they wonder why I tore them in half. DOOM, of all games, can handle this balance issue really well; the player sets the checkpoints via save files. I give myself a specific set of rules when I play:

You may only save at the beginning of a level.
If you die, either reload your beginning of level save or take the 100% / No Armor / 50 Pistol Ammo.
If you need to leave mid-level, then the exception can be made to the first rule, but you may only load this save one time and if you die you still must restart the level. This is like a suspend save in SRPG's or long race series in games like Gran Turismo 5.

There you go, there's a balanced checkpoint system. If the player wants they can be little girls and save every two seconds or be a maniac and play a whole episode with no saves, then set their computer on fire and kill their dog if they die. Whatever, player, set your own pace!

Then there's every modern game ever, where checkpoints are forced down a player's throat every encounter or so. You're right in calling it a brute force attempt. I could grind out every trophy in every PS3 game I own. I've been trying to, because it's a maddening Skinner box environment that rewards the player on a semi-random interval with varying-value prizes. Warhawk is a grind. Gran Turismo 5 has endurance races which can be 60 laps or more; the last two races appear to be twenty-four hour races. What the hell? I have the Formula Gran Turismo car unlocked so it is quite literally nothing but a grind. The only challenge-based races are the ones that give you a specific vehicle.

But not resetting a player's score? This could be fine if you just use the Capcom method. You use a continue, you get a number at the end of your score. There you go, people will now know if you're a credit feeding monkey or not. Hell, it even increases your score, so shove some more quarters in, buddy! Keep mashing that bomb button every time you die. Do it.

I'll admit I can't 1cc a lot of games. DeathSmiles and MUSHA come to mind. But you know what? I've been playing DOOM II recently and using my save file rules, some levels take half an hour to forty-five minutes to complete, and I die often enough until I learn the route that will get me to the end, leaving two Arch-Viles and thirty Cacodemons chasing me to the exit. I think I can afford to restart a shmup to try for a higher score, rather than just keeping my score for simply hitting continue. People just want instant gratification.

Modern gaming is really pushing me to start working on that shmup I've been planning. Well, since I don't do much at my coding job as is, I guess I should get cracking.
Why is it called the Vic Viper/Warp Rattler? Because the Options trail behind it in a serpent-like fashion, and the iconic front fins are designed to invoke the image of a snake's fangs.
User avatar
Rozyrg
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Southeast USA

Re: Score reset/game design discussion split from Baryon thread

Post by Rozyrg »

That's one thing that prompted me to try to make my own... imposing the rules you like, especially ones that aren't likely to make a resurgence. I love checkpoints in shooters, less and faster bullets and a general straightforward simplicity, so if I have to make my own game to have all these wonderful things back together again, so be it. >_>

Back OT, not resetting your score after a game over just bugs me... it makes me feel like I'm stuck with a overbloated score I didn't earn. It's a non-restriction I would prefer to be left optional, like games that give you infinite continues when I'd much rather *choose* how many you're given. When I still had Ikaruga for DC, I'd purposely remove the VMU to keep the game from accumulating more credits than the default amount.
Post Reply