Explanation on why Cave shooters are in high demand?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:33 am

Does anyone know why Cave shooters are becoming more popular then they were when they were released?

My guess is the word has spread and people have finally paid some respect to these great developers.

Lately games I have paid $100-$300 for originally are doubling even tripling in value.

Lately I noticed most people are after:

Dangun Feveron
Ketsui
Guwange
Pro Gear
Dodonpachi
Esprade
Dodonpachi Dai Ou Jou
Espgaluda

I guess I represented almost every cave shmup out there LOL

What is the general consensus to this Cave Mayhem?

Post by **system11** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:35 am

As more go into the hands of long term collectors, less are circulating - plus many of them are no longer trickling off site into the supply chain.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:45 am

Well all of their games are amazing and they are the only shooter developer doing anything revelant right now (and for the last few years). In terms of demand I would say Ketsui is the most sought after, followed by Dangun and Guwange. I can see Progear falling around the $200 mark by next year just because there are so many versions out there.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:00 am

The only ones that are reaching the prices you suggest are those that will not be ported.

Ketsui, Dangun, Guwange and Progear are currently fetching high prices. I don't see the others following suit. The others are actually still coming down in price and will probably settle at the $200+ region.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:30 am

The last ESPGaluda kit on YJ went for 35,000, which is still quite a bit considering there's a port of it. A full kit of DOJ will cost you about the same... stil high considering there's a port. I dont' think they'll hit $200 for a while.

The US version of Progear might go down, but the JPN one won't for a while. It's 4 years old, and a PCB-only wills till cost at least 30,000 yen. I paid out the ass for mine b/c it had original printed materials. Traditionally, the Japanese versions hold their value better. I have no clue why (print run?), but they do.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:10 am

Gosh...I was never fond of a Cave shooter...why the hype? I haven't a clue. I'm not saying they are bad, just not my taste.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:34 am

GaijinPunch wrote:The last ESPGaluda kit on YJ went for 35,000, which is still quite a bit considering there's a port of it. A full kit of DOJ will cost you about the same... stil high considering there's a port. I dont' think they'll hit $200 for a while.

The US version of Progear might go down, but the JPN one won't for a while. It's 4 years old, and a PCB-only wills till cost at least 30,000 yen. I paid out the ass for mine b/c it had original printed materials. Traditionally, the Japanese versions hold their value better. I have no clue why (print run?), but they do.

I was talking about a bare PCB. I Guess Galuda is still quite new and most sales of it will be in kit form. Its still cheaper than a bare bones Ketsui though

matt · Post by **matt** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:36 am

Because Cave shooters kick ass!

Supply & demand at its finest

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:01 am

matt wrote:Because Cave shooters kick ass!

Supply & demand at its finest

hmm, more specifically, Cave's offerings consistently have VERY HIGH production value

- professional music
- professional graphics
- professional concept/promo art
- near flawless engine with very impressive sprite count

That plus its reputation for being the biggest shmup company alive. (Taito not included, since it makes other things more than shmups)

All of these elements pique fans' curiosity whenever there is a release, yet leaving them in a comfort zone knowing that most Cave games are good.

Say, even if I like Batrider style gameplay more than DDP, I still enjoy DDP because it is a good overall package. None of the Cave stuff is outstanding in my book, but they are all excellent creations.

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:05 am

i just sold my soul to the devil for guwange+strikers 1999=ketsui...j/k...

....boy does it does(will) feel good once ketsui is in my possession

Guwange hit the spot for me but Owning Progear as well, progear has basically gave me a consesus of what a great shmup suppose to be...and the irony of it..its a hori..

One day, I will have Guwange once again..but until then ,ill just have the ketsui board

Cave Trading/Selling/Buying PCBs should have its own thread for Forum in the Shmups Trading Station and it should be stickied!

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:24 am

TGK wrote:All of these elements pique fans' curiosity whenever there is a release, yet leaving them in a comfort zone knowing that most Cave games are good.

I guess the only company other than Cave that can induce such kind of curiosity to shmups fans is Treasure.

japtor · Post by **japtor** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:34 am

i only got into pcbs last year, basically going off excellentcom price lists and some deals here and ebay... dangun and esprade were around $150 and guwange $180 or so i think, i havent seen a ddp board on a list until a few months ago, and that was around $180 too. i dont think esprade's value has changed much, but dangun and guwange just seme to be getting more scarce.

progear, doj, and ketsui were all around $300, ketsui the cheapest, and i think doj was the most expensive. doj seems to have gone down since then. progear seems like its getting harder to find, not that it was easy before. and i dont know whats with ketsui. people finally realizing it doesnt suck, no port, and not emulated? then complete opposite situation with galuda, it seemed like it dropped under $400 pretty fast. how soon was the ps2 port announced after the arcade release?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:28 am

Dangun in Japan has gone way up. I bought one for about 10,000 at Mak-JP yen just before leaving, and got one off of YJ for even cheaper than that. Make wants 17,000 now. ESPRade they want 27,000, which isn't a lot higher than what they used to sell it for (22,000 or so). Guwange seems to be pretty hard to find. Runs over 30,000 when it pops up (mine was 32,000) but you gotta have Ninja-timing.

matt · Post by **matt** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:06 am

Ironically, Feveron and Guwange used to be among the least expensive Cave PCBs (in Japan at least). When I got my Guwange 4 years ago, I paid $85 for a complete kit. At the same time, Feveron was going for dirt and wasn't selling - as low as $40-50 in some cases. I think I paid $120 for mine and felt foolish afterwards.

Wanderer bought an Asian Feveron board for $20 two years ago - the best deal I've ever seen by far!

ESP and DDP have always been relatively expensive - prices have gone up slightly but not a whole lot. Progear was never cheap - it bottomed out at $250ish.

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:37 am

ROBOTRON wrote:Gosh...I was never fond of a Cave shooter...why the hype? I haven't a clue. I'm not saying they are bad, just not my taste.

Same here. I don't like the idea of being punished (score-wise) so damn hard if you die or use a bomb. I also feel that most of their games lack 'profile' (no characters in DDP, terrible music in DDP, bland design in DDP etc:)). However, they seem to be getting better at this, DDPDOJ is very nice artistically.

Anyway, I'd rather play Garegga, where you have to bomb to score, and where you have to die to survive

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:01 am

(no characters in DDP

Funny you mention this. Apparently "characters in shooters" started with Batsugun, something Junya Inoue pushed very hard against his colleagues better wishes to get, and carried it over to Cave (afte DDP of course).

I hate 98% of game music, so would never rate a game on it unless it's really bad.

Oh, yeah -- you don't get punished for bombing or dying. You get rewarded for not bombing and not dying.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:03 pm

GaijinPunch wrote: Oh, yeah -- you don't get punished for bombing or dying. You get rewarded for not bombing and not dying.

So that means that the punishment is not recieving the reward, yes?

Back on topic, I never really looked into Cave's games. I played DDP for a little bit on emulation, but didn't like it all that much, even though the music was rocking hard. Perhaps it was because of my R-Type/Gradius/Darius/Ray Trilogy upbringing. However, I can understand just from looking at how Cave's games why people would want to get their hands on some of their harder to find titles, just like with anything that begins to get harder and harder to come by.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:54 pm

dai jou bu wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote: Oh, yeah -- you don't get punished for bombing or dying. You get rewarded for not bombing and not dying.
Back on topic, I never really looked into Cave's games. I played DDP for a little bit on emulation, but didn't like it all that much, even though the music was rocking hard. Perhaps it was because of my R-Type/Gradius/Darius/Ray Trilogy upbringing. However, I can understand just from looking at how Cave's games why people would want to get their hands on some of their harder to find titles, just like with anything that begins to get harder and harder to come by.

INDEED.

The same can be said for just about any collectable game (shmup in particular). Look at RSG and Zanac x Zanac...also very collectable.

Cave has a HUGE fanbase, that fact cannot be denied...I actually only like 2 currently...half-hartedly. I don't know...just not my cup o tea.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:09 pm

Since there have been quite a few people mentioning ports in this thread, I have a question to ask.

These days no one seems to care about comparing different versions of the same game. For example, the Arcade version of ESPgaluda to the PS2 port. Is it a pixel-perfect port?

Why doesn't anybody do that these days? I guess no one cares enough.

Post by **Ghegs** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:27 pm

icycalm wrote: Why doesn't anybody do that these days? I guess no one cares enough.

Because "these days" are not the "old days" where ports of R-Type or Truxton/Tatsujin or Gradius were wildly different depending on the system. PCE/SMS/NES/GENNY/whatever ports of those are so different from one another (graphically as well as gameplay-wise) that comparisons were inevitable.

But now...well, Galuda was only ported to PS2, and not that many people have played the actual PCB. So there's not much to compare to. As for, say, Shikigami No Shiro II which got ported to DC, GC and PS2, there have been comparisons made. But the fact is that all those ports are very close to each other, differences like the ones found in the "old days" are just nowhere to be found. Small differences here and there maybe, but it's mostly small stuff that doesn't really matter much. At least not when compared to the differences between R-Type SMS and R-Type PCE.

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:48 pm

SAM wrote:
TGK wrote:All of these elements pique fans' curiosity whenever there is a release, yet leaving them in a comfort zone knowing that most Cave games are good.
I guess the only company other than Cave that can induce such kind of curiosity to shmups fans is Treasure.

Yes, I forgot to mention Treasure

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:16 pm

Ghegs wrote:. As for, say, Shikigami No Shiro II which got ported to DC, GC and PS2,

And Xbox and PC. Maybe PSP, but the screen isn't meant for that kind of setup. Err, I mean the button layout is going to make the TATE gameplay really awkward.

Hmm... I wonder how DDP would look on the DS?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:47 pm

icycalm wrote:These days no one seems to care about comparing different versions of the same game. For example, the Arcade version of ESPgaluda to the PS2 port. Is it a pixel-perfect port?

From what people who have played the arcade version have said it's pretty darn close.

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:20 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
(no characters in DDP
Funny you mention this. Apparently "characters in shooters" started with Batsugun, something Junya Inoue pushed very hard against his colleagues better wishes to get, and carried it over to Cave (afte DDP of course).

I believe it started at Sonic Wing (Aero Fighter) and/or UN Squadron (area 88), and there are actually experimentations with characters in shmups even before that, during the NES.

You seem to say it as if characters in shmup was a bad thing

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:26 pm

Collectability is a factor for sale, but NOT the main factor. A successful company cannot rely on waiting for their titles to become collectibles. New Cave shmups are still anticipated by fans.

And why so? Quality. Cave shmups are quality products, I can elaborate on their technical merits even if I don't like this and that minor things about it.

The way I see it, Cave is like the EA of shmups. I don't expect innovation in a new Cave shmup, I expect something similar to DDP. But that isn't a bad thing.

LAshujin · Post by **LAshujin** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:08 pm

TGK wrote: The way I see it, Cave is like the EA of shmups. I don't expect innovation in a new Cave shmup, I expect something similar to DDP. But that isn't a bad thing.

I see it just the opposite. I really didn't care for shmups at all (one of my least favorite genres) untill I played ESP Ra.De and it was like a revelation because it was fun and different. To a newbie R-type etc. can seem old and boring.

Cave shooters are exciting and graphically impressive looking. I got into the genre because of how badass I felt after dodging all those bullets

Post by **Dave_K.** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:41 pm

icycalm wrote: These days no one seems to care about comparing different versions of the same game. For example, the Arcade version of ESPgaluda to the PS2 port. Is it a pixel-perfect port?

We briefly touched on this in the "Cave emulation deficiencies" thread. But mostly about the difference between PCB and emulation.
http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2045

I think there was still a small amount of slowdown on the PCB even compared to the PS2 port (and of course compared to mame). Graphic wise the cave ports are true-lowres pixel perfect.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:44 pm

Dave_K. wrote:
icycalm wrote: These days no one seems to care about comparing different versions of the same game. For example, the Arcade version of ESPgaluda to the PS2 port. Is it a pixel-perfect port?
We briefly touched on this in the "Cave emulation deficiencies" thread. But mostly about the difference between PCB and emulation.
http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic ... =emulation

I think there was still a small amount of slowdown on the PCB even compared to the PS2 port (and of course compared to mame). Graphic wise the cave ports are true-lowres pixel perfect.

I would say Xbox does the best cave emulation out of any system including home PC.

As far as the ports go. Dodonpachi Dai Ou Jou Is A decent port yet it is missing some of the feel of the original PCB. Espgaluda on the other Hand Feels and plays exactly like the PCB.

There are no Perfect Cave ports IMO . Although Espgaluda does come close.

Ex_Mosquito · Post by **Ex_Mosquito** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:44 pm

Because Neogeo AES "collectors" are now starting to go crazy over cave kits. Shame

Post by **Dave_K.** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:51 pm

BlastAway wrote: As far as the ports go. Dodonpachi Dai Ou Jou Is A decent port yet it is missing some of the feel of the original PCB. Espgaluda on the other Hand Feels and plays exactly like the PCB.

This different feel probably has to do with the medium used to play the PS2 port on. TV and PS2 joystick will not be the same. I have a PS2->Jamma setup which allows me to play these ports on a real 29" arcade sit-at cab with sanwa sticks/buttons, and I doubt there is much of any difference in look or feel (outside of this supposed slowdown). As soon as I get these PCBs, I'll be able to give a more accurate review of the differences. Right now the Ports win me over because of the extras options and arrange modes.